1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,520 (crickets chirping) 2 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,040 (dog barking) 3 00:00:21,657 --> 00:00:23,337 - [Prisoner] This is Robben Island. 4 00:00:23,362 --> 00:00:25,361 This one is a blue hell. 5 00:00:25,386 --> 00:00:26,910 (cell door slams) 6 00:00:30,385 --> 00:00:32,912 - [Prisoner] Prisoners are not allowed to sing. 7 00:00:32,912 --> 00:00:36,107 Prisoners are not allowed to whistle. 8 00:00:36,107 --> 00:00:40,958 Prisoners are not allowed to treat warders with disrespect. 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:42,160 - [Prisoner] It was assault. 10 00:00:42,190 --> 00:00:43,537 It was insult. 11 00:00:43,591 --> 00:00:46,403 It was hounds set at you. 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,720 And with all those Afrikaaner, the warders, 13 00:00:49,750 --> 00:00:54,004 shouting, (speaking in foreign language), 14 00:00:54,004 --> 00:00:56,921 "You shall never get that freedom." 15 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:04,146 - [Prisoner] They raided our cells at night. 16 00:01:05,071 --> 00:01:08,404 They stood me, told me to hold the wall. 17 00:01:09,722 --> 00:01:12,926 That was one incident, but, personally, 18 00:01:12,926 --> 00:01:15,093 I felt very bitter, angry. 19 00:01:16,513 --> 00:01:18,401 (dog barking) 20 00:01:18,401 --> 00:01:22,568 - [Nelson] The spirit of solidarity with our cause 21 00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:27,200 was visible and we could cut it with a knife. 22 00:01:28,248 --> 00:01:32,415 This is what gave us the hope that one day we would return. 23 00:01:34,137 --> 00:01:36,720 (cats meowing) 24 00:01:40,779 --> 00:01:42,415 - [Radio Announcer] The accused are 25 00:01:42,415 --> 00:01:46,957 Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, Walter Max Ulyate Sisulu, 26 00:01:46,957 --> 00:01:51,142 Dennis Theodore Goldberg, Govan Archibald Mbeki, 27 00:01:51,142 --> 00:01:55,643 Ahmed Mohamed Kathrada, Lionel Gabriel Bernstein, 28 00:01:55,643 --> 00:01:59,810 Raymond Mhlaba, Elias Motsoaledi, and Andrew Mlangeni. 29 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,827 They are charged on two counts of sabotage, 30 00:02:04,827 --> 00:02:07,530 one of contravening the Suppression of Communism Act 31 00:02:07,530 --> 00:02:11,697 and one of contravening the General Law Amendment Act. 32 00:02:13,967 --> 00:02:17,490 - [Quartus] The verdict will be... 33 00:02:17,490 --> 00:02:22,241 Accused number one is found guilty on all four counts, 34 00:02:22,241 --> 00:02:26,408 accused number two is found guilty on all four counts, 35 00:02:27,350 --> 00:02:31,517 accused number three is found guilty on all four counts. 36 00:02:33,561 --> 00:02:36,116 - [Narrator] In June, 1964, the main defendants 37 00:02:36,116 --> 00:02:38,062 in the Rivonia treason trial were flown 38 00:02:38,062 --> 00:02:41,085 to the new maximum security prison on Robben Island 39 00:02:41,085 --> 00:02:43,065 to serve life sentences alongside 40 00:02:43,065 --> 00:02:45,825 other South African political prisoners. 41 00:02:45,825 --> 00:02:48,063 Only intense international pressure had 42 00:02:48,063 --> 00:02:50,896 saved them from the death penalty. 43 00:02:52,719 --> 00:02:55,386 - I felt relaxed when I got down 44 00:02:56,242 --> 00:02:58,742 in the plane in Robben Island. 45 00:03:00,123 --> 00:03:03,314 The atmosphere was quite different 46 00:03:03,314 --> 00:03:05,783 and I knew I had come to stay, 47 00:03:05,783 --> 00:03:10,561 I'm not passing, and therefore I was completely relaxed. 48 00:03:10,561 --> 00:03:14,244 - The struggle for physical survival was not the issue. 49 00:03:14,244 --> 00:03:16,619 You had to struggle at all levels. 50 00:03:16,619 --> 00:03:20,830 It was a struggle for dignity even more than for survival. 51 00:03:20,830 --> 00:03:23,414 Robben Island was not a death camp 52 00:03:23,414 --> 00:03:26,867 or a concentration camp of any kind. 53 00:03:26,867 --> 00:03:30,115 And that is what made a lot of people survive whole. 54 00:03:30,115 --> 00:03:33,150 If we had had to continue to struggle at that level, 55 00:03:33,181 --> 00:03:34,634 I don't think many people would've 56 00:03:34,634 --> 00:03:37,709 come out of the experience whole. 57 00:03:37,709 --> 00:03:41,709 - What was important was the fact that the ideas 58 00:03:42,743 --> 00:03:46,910 for which we were sent to Robben Island would never die. 59 00:03:47,918 --> 00:03:51,251 And we were therefore able to go through 60 00:03:52,232 --> 00:03:55,058 some of the harshest experiences 61 00:03:55,058 --> 00:03:56,641 which a human being 62 00:03:59,799 --> 00:04:03,799 can have behind bars, especially a South African 63 00:04:04,887 --> 00:04:07,804 prison where the warders were drawn 64 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,337 from a community which has always 65 00:04:12,337 --> 00:04:15,587 treated the blacks like pieces of rags. 66 00:04:24,014 --> 00:04:26,681 - You are locked up in the cell. 67 00:04:27,793 --> 00:04:29,376 It's a single cell. 68 00:04:31,941 --> 00:04:36,088 You are allowed exercise, half an hour in the morning 69 00:04:36,088 --> 00:04:39,590 and half an hour in the afternoon. 70 00:04:39,590 --> 00:04:43,034 In the early years of our arrival, 71 00:04:43,034 --> 00:04:46,534 you had no bed, you were using a coir mat. 72 00:04:48,024 --> 00:04:51,857 You fold your blankets, you would sit on that, 73 00:04:53,427 --> 00:04:58,126 and yet there would come another warder who'd say, 74 00:04:58,126 --> 00:05:02,733 "You take those blankets out into the passage," 75 00:05:02,733 --> 00:05:06,900 so that you would be left sitting on that coir mat. 76 00:05:09,448 --> 00:05:12,365 And if we recall that Robben Island 77 00:05:14,694 --> 00:05:17,694 is in the Atlantic Ocean, it's cold. 78 00:05:19,478 --> 00:05:22,132 (waves crashing) 79 00:05:22,132 --> 00:05:25,215 And the winters can be terribly cold. 80 00:05:30,473 --> 00:05:33,133 (wind whistling) 81 00:05:33,133 --> 00:05:35,282 - [Narrator] Robben Island lies just seven kilometres 82 00:05:35,282 --> 00:05:37,741 from the mainland at the southernmost tip of Africa 83 00:05:37,741 --> 00:05:41,512 in the bay which is dominated by modern-day Cape Town. 84 00:05:41,512 --> 00:05:44,694 Its recorded history dates back to the 15th century 85 00:05:44,694 --> 00:05:47,990 when it was visited by sailors passing the Cape of Good Hope 86 00:05:47,990 --> 00:05:51,657 on their way to and from India and the East. 87 00:05:53,543 --> 00:05:56,937 Surrounded by freezing waters and treacherous currents, 88 00:05:56,937 --> 00:05:58,608 the island is a natural fortress 89 00:05:58,608 --> 00:06:01,766 from which escape is virtually impossible. 90 00:06:01,766 --> 00:06:03,402 Parched by the sun in summer 91 00:06:03,402 --> 00:06:05,716 and swept by icy winds in winter, 92 00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:07,718 it is, like its American counterpart, 93 00:06:07,718 --> 00:06:10,585 Alcatraz, an ideal place of banishment 94 00:06:10,585 --> 00:06:14,335 for enemies of the state and other offenders. 95 00:06:15,336 --> 00:06:17,639 - They wanted to deep freeze us 96 00:06:17,639 --> 00:06:20,459 so that we were forgotten by our people 97 00:06:20,459 --> 00:06:24,646 and the flame of liberation is obliterated. 98 00:06:24,646 --> 00:06:26,333 The fact that, for instance, we were 99 00:06:26,333 --> 00:06:30,384 in a complete state of siege to drive in the point 100 00:06:30,384 --> 00:06:32,391 that you are not entitled to be in contact 101 00:06:32,391 --> 00:06:36,568 with the civilised world and that you were there to die. 102 00:06:36,568 --> 00:06:39,235 I remember one guy, Caconstance, 103 00:06:41,402 --> 00:06:44,235 who would make the point expressly 104 00:06:45,786 --> 00:06:48,119 that you must pay the price. 105 00:06:49,792 --> 00:06:53,375 Prison is a place in which you must suffer. 106 00:06:55,725 --> 00:06:59,892 If we were to convert this place into a five-star hotel, 107 00:07:00,767 --> 00:07:03,184 then you'd be coming in here, 108 00:07:05,082 --> 00:07:07,415 you know, in your thousands. 109 00:07:12,152 --> 00:07:14,485 - The African prisoners were 110 00:07:16,345 --> 00:07:18,345 put on the F diet scale. 111 00:07:20,911 --> 00:07:23,494 And for us, there was no bread. 112 00:07:26,865 --> 00:07:28,532 We longed for bread. 113 00:07:30,952 --> 00:07:32,619 We longed for bread. 114 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:36,749 And... 115 00:07:40,788 --> 00:07:43,955 What struck us, what was strange to us 116 00:07:46,287 --> 00:07:50,037 was that the people who were denying us bread 117 00:07:51,531 --> 00:07:54,864 were very keen to tell us, almost daily, 118 00:07:58,020 --> 00:08:00,020 that they were religious 119 00:08:03,372 --> 00:08:05,872 and that they were Christians. 120 00:08:07,582 --> 00:08:11,582 And they prayed every day, probably twice daily, 121 00:08:14,689 --> 00:08:18,490 and did that with their families too and their children, 122 00:08:18,490 --> 00:08:22,281 "Give us this day, our daily bread." 123 00:08:22,281 --> 00:08:25,114 And yet, to them, we were not part 124 00:08:27,460 --> 00:08:31,043 of the us that should be given daily bread. 125 00:08:34,815 --> 00:08:39,102 - "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord 126 00:08:39,102 --> 00:08:41,631 "and in the power of his might. 127 00:08:41,631 --> 00:08:44,131 "Put on the whole armour of God 128 00:08:45,338 --> 00:08:47,451 "that we may be able to stand 129 00:08:47,451 --> 00:08:49,983 "against the wiles of the devil. 130 00:08:49,983 --> 00:08:53,022 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood 131 00:08:53,022 --> 00:08:56,895 "but against principalities, against powers, 132 00:08:56,895 --> 00:09:00,077 "against the rulers of darkness of this world, 133 00:09:00,077 --> 00:09:03,910 "against spiritual wickedness in high places." 134 00:09:06,405 --> 00:09:09,699 I actually lost hope at one time, 135 00:09:09,699 --> 00:09:13,782 a hope of ever coming out alive in Robben Island. 136 00:09:15,181 --> 00:09:17,882 There was no reading material that was allowed 137 00:09:17,882 --> 00:09:20,465 on us to read except the Bible. 138 00:09:21,762 --> 00:09:25,349 And we were also not allowed to have 139 00:09:25,349 --> 00:09:26,934 contact with the other people. 140 00:09:26,934 --> 00:09:29,735 I was in isolation all this time. 141 00:09:29,735 --> 00:09:32,492 And I was not allowed to have discussions 142 00:09:32,492 --> 00:09:35,737 with any of my fellow prisoners 143 00:09:35,737 --> 00:09:38,820 outside P section where we were kept. 144 00:09:44,397 --> 00:09:47,049 Political prisoners were forced to do hard labour 145 00:09:47,049 --> 00:09:48,866 in the quarries on the island. 146 00:09:50,134 --> 00:09:52,335 Although most of them had been lawyers, teachers, 147 00:09:52,335 --> 00:09:54,585 and journalists in civilian life, 148 00:09:54,585 --> 00:09:57,913 they were made to dig lime in all weathers. 149 00:09:57,913 --> 00:10:00,612 They were punished if they complained of the cold in winter 150 00:10:00,612 --> 00:10:02,565 or the glare from the lime in summer, 151 00:10:02,565 --> 00:10:05,232 which ruined many of their eyes. 152 00:10:08,418 --> 00:10:12,302 Some, like Sisulu and Mbeki, were already in their 50s, 153 00:10:12,302 --> 00:10:16,469 and as they worked, they sang to keep up their morale. 154 00:10:20,249 --> 00:10:23,790 - We would be wielding the pick up 155 00:10:23,790 --> 00:10:27,873 and up to music and down and down all in harmony. 156 00:10:30,675 --> 00:10:33,675 It reserved, it reserved our energy. 157 00:10:36,782 --> 00:10:40,183 And if you found that there were 158 00:10:40,183 --> 00:10:42,683 workers who were working fast, 159 00:10:44,246 --> 00:10:45,746 as you walked past 160 00:10:49,514 --> 00:10:52,264 an expression like this would go. 161 00:10:55,209 --> 00:10:59,376 And you are not even stopping to address the workers. 162 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,293 You say this is now in Kosa. 163 00:11:05,432 --> 00:11:08,349 (speaking in Kosa) 164 00:11:13,106 --> 00:11:17,688 "The white man's work never gets finished, comrades. 165 00:11:17,688 --> 00:11:19,572 "On your knees." 166 00:11:19,572 --> 00:11:21,405 That's the expression. 167 00:11:23,895 --> 00:11:26,017 - [Narrator] Since as early as the 17th century, 168 00:11:26,017 --> 00:11:28,056 Robben Island was used to house convicts 169 00:11:28,056 --> 00:11:32,343 and recalcitrant natives whose names, crimes, and sentences 170 00:11:32,343 --> 00:11:36,052 are recorded in the criminal records of the time. 171 00:11:36,052 --> 00:11:37,599 They were also made to dig lime 172 00:11:37,599 --> 00:11:39,377 and quarry stone on the island, 173 00:11:39,423 --> 00:11:40,814 and were treated with horrifying 174 00:11:40,814 --> 00:11:44,327 brutality by the early Dutch settlers. 175 00:11:44,327 --> 00:11:46,871 They were forced to wear chains and leg irons 176 00:11:46,871 --> 00:11:48,220 and were often further punished 177 00:11:48,220 --> 00:11:50,970 with various forms of mutilation. 178 00:11:53,257 --> 00:11:55,504 A significant number of these early prisoners 179 00:11:55,504 --> 00:11:57,380 were held for political offences. 180 00:11:57,380 --> 00:11:58,218 (man chanting in prayer) 181 00:11:58,243 --> 00:11:59,782 They had been shipped to the island 182 00:11:59,782 --> 00:12:01,736 from other colonies in the East 183 00:12:01,736 --> 00:12:03,928 for offending their Calvinist masters 184 00:12:03,928 --> 00:12:06,456 by expounding the rival faith of Islam, 185 00:12:06,456 --> 00:12:09,289 which was prohibited by the Dutch. 186 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,872 (rocks crunching) 187 00:12:28,872 --> 00:12:31,252 At the end of the Napoleonic Wars, 188 00:12:31,252 --> 00:12:33,743 South Africa became a colony of the British, 189 00:12:33,743 --> 00:12:35,456 who embarked on a series of campaigns 190 00:12:35,456 --> 00:12:38,737 against the neighbouring Kosa tribes. 191 00:12:38,737 --> 00:12:41,222 When the Kosa were defeated, the British shipped 192 00:12:41,222 --> 00:12:44,347 their greatest chiefs in chains to Robben Island, 193 00:12:44,347 --> 00:12:47,297 where, in 1868, they were visited in exile 194 00:12:47,297 --> 00:12:50,547 by the German traveller Gustav Fritsch. 195 00:12:51,535 --> 00:12:53,319 - [Gustav] The chiefs lived in huts, 196 00:12:53,319 --> 00:12:55,316 built all in the same style, 197 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:57,805 as they dwelt in in their homeland. 198 00:12:57,805 --> 00:13:01,972 These were like beehives, furnished over with reed grass. 199 00:13:03,078 --> 00:13:06,242 Of these men, four were convicts on the island. 200 00:13:06,242 --> 00:13:09,025 One, Siolo, was simply a prisoner, 201 00:13:09,025 --> 00:13:13,176 having given himself over in the British war. 202 00:13:13,176 --> 00:13:15,907 Mokwoma was the most infamous, 203 00:13:15,907 --> 00:13:19,500 as much known for his cunning as for his cruelty. 204 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:22,465 That he must have been, having buried a prisoner 205 00:13:22,465 --> 00:13:26,632 in an ant heap, who thus ended his life suffering very much. 206 00:13:29,021 --> 00:13:31,976 For a little tobacco and one shilling per head, 207 00:13:31,976 --> 00:13:33,959 they were willing to give me their presence 208 00:13:33,959 --> 00:13:37,126 for some time to take their portraits. 209 00:13:38,294 --> 00:13:39,942 Not without some difficulty, 210 00:13:39,942 --> 00:13:43,692 as sitting still throughout seemed a problem. 211 00:13:44,567 --> 00:13:47,644 Many of the pictures left much to be desired, 212 00:13:47,644 --> 00:13:49,574 but at least they showed the features 213 00:13:49,574 --> 00:13:52,157 well enough for scientific use. 214 00:13:56,009 --> 00:13:59,926 (mellow acoustic guitar music) 215 00:14:02,842 --> 00:14:04,832 One of the chiefs asked that I 216 00:14:04,832 --> 00:14:07,918 must please plead for his release. 217 00:14:07,918 --> 00:14:09,790 He wouldn't become healthy unless 218 00:14:09,790 --> 00:14:12,797 he was in the air of his fatherland. 219 00:14:12,797 --> 00:14:16,797 And with that, the tears rolled down his cheeks. 220 00:14:21,991 --> 00:14:25,434 - We were quite conscious that our presence on Robben Island 221 00:14:25,434 --> 00:14:28,844 was actually traversing the steps 222 00:14:28,844 --> 00:14:33,415 which much senior fighters had already traversed. 223 00:14:33,415 --> 00:14:37,717 The best minds from amongst our people were chiefs, 224 00:14:37,717 --> 00:14:41,534 and very noble characters who would not bend 225 00:14:41,534 --> 00:14:46,357 and give away the dignity and the freedom of their people. 226 00:14:46,357 --> 00:14:48,857 And that inspired a lot of us. 227 00:14:51,939 --> 00:14:54,240 - [Narrator] From the outset, prisoners on the island 228 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,396 were isolated from the rest of society. 229 00:14:57,396 --> 00:14:59,926 Their only contact was with their families, 230 00:14:59,926 --> 00:15:03,264 most of whom lived hundreds of miles away. 231 00:15:03,264 --> 00:15:05,122 They had to apply for official permission 232 00:15:05,122 --> 00:15:07,098 to go to the island and were allowed 233 00:15:07,098 --> 00:15:09,442 only one visit every six months, 234 00:15:09,442 --> 00:15:13,285 which was restricted to just 30 minutes. 235 00:15:13,285 --> 00:15:16,952 - The train took two nights and a third day. 236 00:15:17,798 --> 00:15:20,465 I arrived at Cape Town at seven. 237 00:15:22,004 --> 00:15:24,921 At half past 11, I started to walk, 238 00:15:26,191 --> 00:15:29,652 asking people the way to the harbour 239 00:15:29,652 --> 00:15:34,128 because I did not even know where the harbour is. 240 00:15:34,128 --> 00:15:35,295 I got my boat. 241 00:15:37,573 --> 00:15:41,156 I was escorted to where Andrew was waiting. 242 00:15:42,657 --> 00:15:47,431 It was a passage, a long passage with just the top. 243 00:15:47,431 --> 00:15:49,882 On the sides, there was nothing. 244 00:15:49,882 --> 00:15:53,882 And there was a fence and a passage and a fence. 245 00:15:54,766 --> 00:15:56,190 He was standing there. 246 00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:57,740 Outside, I was standing. 247 00:15:57,740 --> 00:16:00,045 We were shouting at one another, 248 00:16:00,045 --> 00:16:02,409 and there were other people, 249 00:16:02,409 --> 00:16:04,559 other prisoners and their family. 250 00:16:04,559 --> 00:16:07,277 It was such a lot of noise. 251 00:16:07,277 --> 00:16:10,253 In our discussions, some discussion, 252 00:16:10,253 --> 00:16:13,086 I couldn't even hear what he says. 253 00:16:14,599 --> 00:16:16,729 - I had been discussing some of these issues 254 00:16:16,729 --> 00:16:19,159 with my wife before we were arrested. 255 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:22,576 But, my dear, we have got to prepare ourselves. 256 00:16:22,576 --> 00:16:25,993 One day, as people engaged in a struggle, 257 00:16:28,258 --> 00:16:31,139 we know from the history of the other struggles 258 00:16:31,139 --> 00:16:35,234 that when people go to prison, they go for a long time. 259 00:16:35,234 --> 00:16:39,345 We have got to prepare ourselves for this. 260 00:16:39,345 --> 00:16:43,443 - I didn't want to show him how much I was hurt. 261 00:16:43,443 --> 00:16:47,193 I wanted him to feel that I'm not so worried, 262 00:16:48,368 --> 00:16:52,801 although, really, I was very much hurt to see him, 263 00:16:52,801 --> 00:16:56,384 the way he was dressed and in that weather. 264 00:16:58,528 --> 00:17:00,750 - [Interviewer] How was he dressed? 265 00:17:00,750 --> 00:17:02,583 - With short trousers. 266 00:17:04,632 --> 00:17:05,633 It's not a khaki. 267 00:17:05,633 --> 00:17:07,157 I don't know. 268 00:17:07,157 --> 00:17:09,813 It looked like a canvas trouser 269 00:17:09,813 --> 00:17:13,063 and a jacket and sandals without socks. 270 00:17:15,096 --> 00:17:16,429 And it was cold. 271 00:17:17,377 --> 00:17:21,294 I was very much hurt to see him standing there. 272 00:17:24,335 --> 00:17:27,229 We were still very hurt and fed up 273 00:17:27,229 --> 00:17:29,982 about what happened to our husband, 274 00:17:29,982 --> 00:17:32,982 when our government separate a home, 275 00:17:35,086 --> 00:17:39,253 separate the two parents, people who love one another. 276 00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:44,700 Because we were still young when Andrew was arrested, 277 00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:48,867 so I was still looking forward to the future with him. 278 00:17:50,094 --> 00:17:52,680 But it was torn apart by the government 279 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,449 taking him to prison. 280 00:17:54,449 --> 00:17:58,366 (mellow acoustic guitar music) 281 00:18:39,465 --> 00:18:42,161 - I wrote this song on a plate, my own song, 282 00:18:42,161 --> 00:18:43,633 if all the other songs couldn't 283 00:18:43,633 --> 00:18:46,216 express how I felt at the time. 284 00:18:47,076 --> 00:18:49,153 You know, sometimes you get feelings, 285 00:18:49,153 --> 00:18:53,360 which you can't write down, you can't express. 286 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,110 And then that's how I came to play that song. 287 00:19:05,932 --> 00:19:08,448 I mean, I don't know, I wanted people know what it's like 288 00:19:08,448 --> 00:19:12,100 for people to be in love and to be in a prison. 289 00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:14,490 You know, it's such a contradiction. 290 00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:16,650 I think it was more or less an expression 291 00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:18,938 of that contradiction of those feelings. 292 00:19:18,938 --> 00:19:21,238 But some of the music was lively. 293 00:19:21,238 --> 00:19:25,405 But generally, one can say that some of them were quite sad. 294 00:19:27,613 --> 00:19:31,780 (man speaking in foreign language) 295 00:19:34,146 --> 00:19:37,230 - [James] I was head of the Censor Department. 296 00:19:37,230 --> 00:19:39,618 That was sort of the lifeline of a prisoner, 297 00:19:39,618 --> 00:19:42,050 you know, put it that way. 298 00:19:42,075 --> 00:19:44,721 'Cause I mean, everything goes through that office. 299 00:19:46,861 --> 00:19:49,299 - [Interviewer] Can you explain what the Censor's Office did? 300 00:19:51,577 --> 00:19:53,572 - Well, the Censor Office duty 301 00:19:53,572 --> 00:19:56,317 was to read each and every letter 302 00:19:56,317 --> 00:19:59,650 and, according to rules and regulations, 303 00:20:01,344 --> 00:20:04,677 to take out or censor letters, you know. 304 00:20:05,524 --> 00:20:09,005 Things that were then not supposed 305 00:20:09,005 --> 00:20:12,922 to come to their attention and also vice versa. 306 00:20:14,215 --> 00:20:17,670 - I was very, very much attached to my sister 307 00:20:17,670 --> 00:20:20,837 and I was expecting a letter from her. 308 00:20:22,071 --> 00:20:24,789 I was called into the office. 309 00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:28,785 Then when I came in, the warder then said, 310 00:20:28,785 --> 00:20:30,611 "Are you Kwedie Mkalipi?" 311 00:20:30,611 --> 00:20:32,482 I said, "Yes." 312 00:20:32,482 --> 00:20:35,565 He said, "Do you know Dowis Mkalipi?" 313 00:20:36,901 --> 00:20:38,948 I said, "Yes, that's my sister." 314 00:20:38,948 --> 00:20:39,991 He said, "Your sister?" 315 00:20:40,016 --> 00:20:41,045 I said, "Yes." 316 00:20:41,070 --> 00:20:42,487 "She's dead, go." 317 00:20:43,650 --> 00:20:47,317 Look, no, there was just something that day. 318 00:20:48,273 --> 00:20:50,382 Made it impossible for me to believe 319 00:20:50,382 --> 00:20:54,796 or even to think that I believe what I'm hearing. 320 00:20:54,796 --> 00:20:58,321 So I then went on, I said, "Look, what do you mean?" 321 00:20:58,321 --> 00:21:00,631 He said, "I've told you then that she's dead 322 00:21:00,631 --> 00:21:03,185 "and I don't know what do you want from me then? 323 00:21:03,185 --> 00:21:05,204 "You're wasting my time." 324 00:21:05,204 --> 00:21:06,581 I said, "No, but how did she die?" 325 00:21:06,581 --> 00:21:09,751 He said, "Look, I'm not staying there, 326 00:21:09,751 --> 00:21:12,523 "among the Kaffirs in Transkei. 327 00:21:12,523 --> 00:21:15,119 "I'm telling you then that these are the people 328 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,137 "who will be knowing about how your sister died. 329 00:21:18,137 --> 00:21:20,049 "Get out of my office!" 330 00:21:20,049 --> 00:21:22,409 And that type of insensitivity, 331 00:21:22,409 --> 00:21:25,216 it was one of the things then that 332 00:21:25,216 --> 00:21:28,696 for the first time, when I came into my cell, 333 00:21:28,696 --> 00:21:32,863 I cried for the first time ever since I've been in prison. 334 00:21:39,895 --> 00:21:43,812 - Once imprisoned, the prices that came to bear 335 00:21:45,370 --> 00:21:49,537 were not prices that could have been anticipated really. 336 00:21:50,569 --> 00:21:54,243 You found people who came on Robben Island, for instance, 337 00:21:54,243 --> 00:21:57,050 maybe sentenced to incredibly long sentences. 338 00:21:57,050 --> 00:21:58,133 I recall one, 339 00:22:02,245 --> 00:22:04,155 one of our people who came to Robben Island 340 00:22:04,155 --> 00:22:06,625 was sentenced to 20 years. 341 00:22:06,625 --> 00:22:08,320 He was illiterate. 342 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,487 He'd come from the countryside of the Transkei. 343 00:22:12,487 --> 00:22:16,784 And because of his illiteracy, he did not understand what, 344 00:22:16,784 --> 00:22:20,072 he could not conceptualise 20 years. 345 00:22:20,072 --> 00:22:21,641 And it took time. 346 00:22:21,641 --> 00:22:25,058 When he began to learn to read and write, 347 00:22:26,020 --> 00:22:30,051 to calculate what a year means and so on, 348 00:22:30,051 --> 00:22:32,133 that for the first time he realised 349 00:22:32,133 --> 00:22:35,383 just how long he had been sentenced to. 350 00:22:37,634 --> 00:22:39,841 I know one who got 40 years, 351 00:22:39,841 --> 00:22:43,801 and he, too, took some years before he became alive 352 00:22:43,801 --> 00:22:45,292 to the reality of what he had to 353 00:22:45,292 --> 00:22:48,446 deal with and he lost his mind. 354 00:22:48,446 --> 00:22:49,827 (mellow acoustic guitar music) 355 00:22:49,827 --> 00:22:52,131 - [Narrator] The prison was one in a line of institutions 356 00:22:52,131 --> 00:22:55,131 which had been set up on the island. 357 00:22:57,719 --> 00:23:00,419 In the 1860s, it was used to house mental patients 358 00:23:00,419 --> 00:23:04,568 from the mainland and the so-called chronic sick. 359 00:23:04,568 --> 00:23:07,776 As in other Victorian asylums, conditions were harsh 360 00:23:07,776 --> 00:23:09,625 and the inmates were expected to comply 361 00:23:09,625 --> 00:23:12,375 with a suitably draconian regime. 362 00:23:14,544 --> 00:23:16,354 Instead of being treated as sick, 363 00:23:16,354 --> 00:23:17,988 they were regarded as outcasts 364 00:23:17,988 --> 00:23:20,738 who were a danger to the society. 365 00:23:26,250 --> 00:23:28,512 They were soon joined by another group whose existence 366 00:23:28,512 --> 00:23:32,095 was thought offensive and even threatening. 367 00:23:34,514 --> 00:23:37,026 When leprosy was discovered to be contagious, 368 00:23:37,026 --> 00:23:38,455 those suffering from it were forced 369 00:23:38,455 --> 00:23:40,158 into quarantine on the island, 370 00:23:40,158 --> 00:23:42,759 even though their condition was rarely infectious 371 00:23:42,759 --> 00:23:44,727 and many had been quite adequately cared for 372 00:23:44,727 --> 00:23:47,736 by their families in the past. 373 00:23:47,736 --> 00:23:49,967 Despite their tragic deformities, 374 00:23:49,967 --> 00:23:52,161 the lepers were perfectly normal. 375 00:23:52,161 --> 00:23:54,836 They formed bands, organised picnics, 376 00:23:54,836 --> 00:23:57,419 and kept animals on the island. 377 00:24:00,449 --> 00:24:02,574 Nevertheless, they were treated as freaks 378 00:24:02,574 --> 00:24:06,491 whose very presence was a social embarrassment. 379 00:24:09,558 --> 00:24:11,702 As victims of an incurable disease, 380 00:24:11,702 --> 00:24:13,808 theirs was a life sentence. 381 00:24:13,808 --> 00:24:16,204 They had to stay on the island till they died, 382 00:24:16,204 --> 00:24:18,463 and despite protests from their families, 383 00:24:18,463 --> 00:24:20,796 they were also buried there. 384 00:24:29,235 --> 00:24:32,118 - Robben Island, in one sense, 385 00:24:32,118 --> 00:24:35,631 has been the dustbin of South African history. 386 00:24:35,631 --> 00:24:37,872 All the unwanted things and people 387 00:24:37,872 --> 00:24:39,865 have been dumped on Robben Island, 388 00:24:39,865 --> 00:24:44,020 whether they were rebels against whatever system, 389 00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:47,662 lepers, insane, so-called insane people, 390 00:24:47,662 --> 00:24:51,695 they were all dumped in this dirtbin, so to speak. 391 00:24:51,695 --> 00:24:55,272 But it is a very peculiar dirtbin because, in reality, 392 00:24:55,272 --> 00:24:58,913 what happened there was that all this offal, 393 00:24:58,913 --> 00:25:01,746 all these people, unwanted people, 394 00:25:04,112 --> 00:25:08,279 in very many ways became symbols, became, in that sense, 395 00:25:09,195 --> 00:25:12,528 very undermining symbols for the system. 396 00:25:13,695 --> 00:25:17,422 And we were very aware, as prisoners on Robben Island, 397 00:25:17,422 --> 00:25:20,439 we were very aware of this history. 398 00:25:20,439 --> 00:25:23,280 - One did get off the island to go 399 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,947 to see specialists in Cape Town. 400 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,333 And this was one of the most 401 00:25:34,371 --> 00:25:37,038 humiliating experiences in gaol. 402 00:25:41,010 --> 00:25:44,510 You had leg irons strapped onto your legs, 403 00:25:45,609 --> 00:25:48,442 and they clamped on you handcuffs. 404 00:25:50,056 --> 00:25:53,473 So you are both handcuffed and leg irons. 405 00:25:54,581 --> 00:25:57,331 With handcuffs, handcuffed hands, 406 00:25:58,745 --> 00:26:01,979 you had to hold up the leg irons. 407 00:26:01,979 --> 00:26:04,812 (chains rattling) 408 00:26:07,874 --> 00:26:10,440 And you get a sound from the chains 409 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,273 like this, walla-lass, walla-lass. 410 00:26:14,137 --> 00:26:18,304 And you can't walk normally if you have got leg irons on. 411 00:26:19,583 --> 00:26:23,750 You walk, as it were, like the movements of a he-baboon. 412 00:26:26,586 --> 00:26:28,641 Walking forward and the people 413 00:26:28,641 --> 00:26:31,391 would all turn their eyes to you. 414 00:26:41,464 --> 00:26:44,797 And when you go to a hospital like this, 415 00:26:46,939 --> 00:26:50,189 then there would be thousands of people 416 00:26:51,355 --> 00:26:53,666 in the outpatient department. 417 00:26:53,666 --> 00:26:56,749 (people socialising) 418 00:26:58,538 --> 00:27:01,386 There would be a general buzz, 419 00:27:01,386 --> 00:27:04,303 like one experience with a beehive. 420 00:27:06,071 --> 00:27:08,988 But the moment a prisoner appeared, 421 00:27:10,521 --> 00:27:14,604 all of a sudden, people kept quiet and looked up. 422 00:27:18,264 --> 00:27:21,431 And all those eyes, thousands of them, 423 00:27:23,734 --> 00:27:26,317 would be looking up at that one 424 00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:31,100 individual in leg irons, handcuffed. 425 00:27:34,625 --> 00:27:38,579 And you would feel, as it were, feel their eyes 426 00:27:38,579 --> 00:27:42,746 as if they were penetrating through your whole being. 427 00:27:47,394 --> 00:27:49,144 It was an experience, 428 00:27:51,484 --> 00:27:52,901 an experience one 429 00:27:55,946 --> 00:27:57,863 doesn't like to recall. 430 00:28:00,002 --> 00:28:03,252 But when it happened, it hurt, it hurt. 431 00:28:08,724 --> 00:28:11,391 - Human beings are human beings. 432 00:28:12,778 --> 00:28:15,695 There are rises and ebbs of morale, 433 00:28:18,538 --> 00:28:22,705 and especially against the statements which were made 434 00:28:23,722 --> 00:28:26,902 that a sentence of life means life 435 00:28:26,902 --> 00:28:31,125 and that those people would die in prison. 436 00:28:31,125 --> 00:28:34,042 And although always in high morale, 437 00:28:37,308 --> 00:28:40,710 nevertheless there were moments of doubts. 438 00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:43,542 Whether the expectations that we had 439 00:28:43,542 --> 00:28:47,209 that one day we'd return would be fulfilled. 440 00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:51,609 It's natural that there should have been such moments. 441 00:28:51,609 --> 00:28:55,077 I can utter now that you ask me say, 442 00:28:55,077 --> 00:28:59,085 on this particular day, this was my mood. 443 00:28:59,085 --> 00:29:01,910 But there were moments when one 444 00:29:01,910 --> 00:29:04,910 doubted whether that day would come. 445 00:29:08,062 --> 00:29:10,569 - [Narrator] On June the 16th, 1976, 446 00:29:10,569 --> 00:29:12,300 the first major revolt erupted 447 00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:15,531 in the townships after 15 people, 448 00:29:15,531 --> 00:29:18,591 many of them schoolchildren, were shot dead in Soweto. 449 00:29:18,591 --> 00:29:21,674 The result was a full-scale uprising. 450 00:29:25,291 --> 00:29:27,734 - Whenever there were big events outside, 451 00:29:27,734 --> 00:29:31,792 they used to react, and we immediately guessed 452 00:29:31,817 --> 00:29:33,228 that something's happening outside 453 00:29:33,253 --> 00:29:36,244 which would be favourable to us. 454 00:29:36,244 --> 00:29:38,556 There was one particular period 455 00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:43,130 when they acted quite normally, as if nothing has happened, 456 00:29:43,130 --> 00:29:45,880 and that was the Soweto Uprising. 457 00:29:47,437 --> 00:29:50,443 We heard some snippets of garbled information 458 00:29:50,443 --> 00:29:54,009 which was grossly exaggerated and distorted. 459 00:29:54,009 --> 00:29:55,544 They were so successful in keeping 460 00:29:55,544 --> 00:29:58,377 the news away from us at that time 461 00:29:59,709 --> 00:30:03,042 that there was literally a news drought, 462 00:30:05,015 --> 00:30:09,138 and we first came to hear of the Soweto Uprising 463 00:30:09,138 --> 00:30:11,434 in August of 1976, which was 464 00:30:11,434 --> 00:30:14,184 two months after it had happened. 465 00:30:15,129 --> 00:30:16,447 - [Narrator] The Soweto Uprising 466 00:30:16,447 --> 00:30:18,280 set off a new wave of resistance, 467 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,905 both inside and outside South Africa. 468 00:30:21,905 --> 00:30:24,704 Military and civilian installations were sabotaged, 469 00:30:24,704 --> 00:30:27,158 international trade sanctions were imposed, 470 00:30:27,158 --> 00:30:28,774 and unrest in the townships reached 471 00:30:28,774 --> 00:30:31,524 almost revolutionary proportions. 472 00:30:32,602 --> 00:30:35,079 In an effort to smother this growing opposition, 473 00:30:35,079 --> 00:30:38,273 arrests were stepped up, and a new generation of prisoners 474 00:30:38,273 --> 00:30:42,440 arrived at the maximum security prison on the island. 475 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,492 - I knew a lot about Robben Island before I went there 476 00:30:52,492 --> 00:30:56,659 because that's where we knew that our heroes were kept. 477 00:30:57,651 --> 00:30:59,900 We knew that Comrade Mandela was there, 478 00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:03,067 Comrade Sisulu was there, so we really 479 00:31:04,273 --> 00:31:07,190 equated Robben Island with freedom. 480 00:31:08,223 --> 00:31:10,973 (waves crashing) 481 00:31:13,531 --> 00:31:15,918 - If you ask me about dialectical materialism, 482 00:31:15,918 --> 00:31:17,386 ask me what did I read about that. 483 00:31:17,386 --> 00:31:19,997 If you ask me about Karl Marx, 484 00:31:19,997 --> 00:31:22,781 I didn't learn that in a college or somewhere. 485 00:31:22,781 --> 00:31:26,633 If you ask me about the actual development of the society, 486 00:31:26,633 --> 00:31:28,798 and all those things, about Hegel and all that, 487 00:31:28,798 --> 00:31:32,692 I'm telling you it was on the island. 488 00:31:32,692 --> 00:31:34,859 - By taking all of us onto the island 489 00:31:34,859 --> 00:31:38,430 and putting us together, they brought together 490 00:31:38,430 --> 00:31:42,597 potential politicians, from all parts of the country. 491 00:31:44,089 --> 00:31:45,604 People who otherwise would not have 492 00:31:45,604 --> 00:31:48,143 had an opportunity to sit and exchange views, 493 00:31:48,143 --> 00:31:50,976 and therefore develop a, you know, 494 00:31:52,189 --> 00:31:54,772 a single, national perspective. 495 00:31:57,082 --> 00:31:59,291 - One of the things that we discovered there, 496 00:31:59,291 --> 00:32:01,814 and which enriched our own lives, 497 00:32:01,814 --> 00:32:06,175 was the calibre of the men who were on the island. 498 00:32:06,175 --> 00:32:07,592 It was fantastic. 499 00:32:08,975 --> 00:32:11,263 Men with whom you could sit down 500 00:32:11,263 --> 00:32:14,254 and at the end of a conversation, 501 00:32:14,254 --> 00:32:17,630 you feel that you have been enriched, 502 00:32:17,630 --> 00:32:20,344 your horizons have been widened, 503 00:32:20,344 --> 00:32:24,322 and your roots in your own country have been deepened. 504 00:32:24,322 --> 00:32:26,151 (dogs barking) 505 00:32:26,176 --> 00:32:27,556 - [Narrator] The new arrivals were 506 00:32:27,556 --> 00:32:29,218 housed in the general sections, 507 00:32:29,218 --> 00:32:31,507 which were separated from the isolation units 508 00:32:31,507 --> 00:32:34,205 in which their leaders were kept. 509 00:32:34,205 --> 00:32:35,957 New walls were built to prevent 510 00:32:35,957 --> 00:32:38,334 communication between the sections. 511 00:32:38,334 --> 00:32:40,332 But the authorities were unable to stop 512 00:32:40,332 --> 00:32:42,417 the flow of information which was crucial 513 00:32:42,417 --> 00:32:46,584 to the survival of political organisation within the prison. 514 00:32:50,427 --> 00:32:54,164 (water pitter-pattering) 515 00:32:54,164 --> 00:32:55,848 The prisoners who worked in the 516 00:32:55,848 --> 00:32:58,986 operated a kind of clandestine postal service. 517 00:32:58,986 --> 00:33:01,219 Messages from one section to another 518 00:33:01,219 --> 00:33:03,685 were wrapped in plastic and hidden inside the pots 519 00:33:03,685 --> 00:33:06,070 in which the food was distributed to the prison. 520 00:33:06,070 --> 00:33:09,070 (cookware clanking) 521 00:33:13,449 --> 00:33:15,576 - I worked in the and I was a cook, 522 00:33:15,576 --> 00:33:19,199 and, at that point in time, Mandela's section, 523 00:33:19,199 --> 00:33:23,155 B Section, was effectively the leader's section. 524 00:33:23,155 --> 00:33:27,452 Now, from the , and then the guys take food, 525 00:33:27,452 --> 00:33:31,693 you know, in big pots, into this section. 526 00:33:31,693 --> 00:33:34,276 So I was put into this one pot. 527 00:33:35,193 --> 00:33:37,681 I mean, you can imagine, I'm this small. (laughs) 528 00:33:37,681 --> 00:33:39,475 So I was put into this one big pot 529 00:33:39,475 --> 00:33:43,486 and, after that, carried into, you know, there are trolleys, 530 00:33:43,486 --> 00:33:47,319 very big trolleys from the into that section. 531 00:33:48,284 --> 00:33:51,482 I think it was all planned because, when I was there, 532 00:33:51,482 --> 00:33:54,238 I heard this voice that, "Now, I'm ready." 533 00:33:54,238 --> 00:33:56,222 And when I was ready, then I had to come out. 534 00:33:56,222 --> 00:33:59,632 And, coming out of the pot, I was in Mandela's room. 535 00:33:59,632 --> 00:34:02,540 I had to sit down with now President Nelson Mandela 536 00:34:02,540 --> 00:34:04,681 and brief him about what was happening. 537 00:34:04,681 --> 00:34:08,778 But I must mention this that now what came out clearly to me 538 00:34:08,778 --> 00:34:11,778 is that people there had a different 539 00:34:13,067 --> 00:34:15,984 idea of what was happening outside. 540 00:34:16,929 --> 00:34:20,262 To them, at that time, they were saying, 541 00:34:21,311 --> 00:34:23,934 "The point has come where we'll be freed." 542 00:34:23,934 --> 00:34:27,343 You know, and they were thinking of it as early as tomorrow, 543 00:34:27,343 --> 00:34:31,170 you know, next month, next week, next year. 544 00:34:31,170 --> 00:34:34,009 They just heard that there was a revolution outside 545 00:34:34,009 --> 00:34:37,183 and some of them had high expectations that now, oh, Lord, 546 00:34:37,183 --> 00:34:41,350 this revolution is about to release us out of this prison. 547 00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:45,866 - [Narrator] Mandela himself spent 548 00:34:45,866 --> 00:34:48,283 a further 14 years in prison. 549 00:34:49,894 --> 00:34:53,474 - A political prisoner, before he goes to gaol, 550 00:34:53,474 --> 00:34:56,391 he says to himself, "I am not going 551 00:34:57,614 --> 00:35:00,114 "to allow myself to go under." 552 00:35:01,739 --> 00:35:04,498 There were those who came to gaol illiterate 553 00:35:04,498 --> 00:35:06,479 and we taught them at the quarry, 554 00:35:06,479 --> 00:35:09,812 at the places of work to read and write. 555 00:35:11,211 --> 00:35:13,711 Firstly, there were no papers. 556 00:35:14,876 --> 00:35:16,626 And we used the site. 557 00:35:18,448 --> 00:35:20,714 The quarry where we worked, for instance, 558 00:35:20,714 --> 00:35:24,240 in our section, was a lime quarry. 559 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:28,407 And there you just levelled the lime and write there 560 00:35:29,878 --> 00:35:32,378 until those students were able 561 00:35:34,084 --> 00:35:36,417 to read and write from that. 562 00:35:37,445 --> 00:35:40,481 (bird cawing) 563 00:35:40,481 --> 00:35:44,648 - When I went to prison, I hadn't studied for 22, 23 years. 564 00:35:46,636 --> 00:35:50,681 And I am greatly indebted to my fellow prisoners 565 00:35:50,681 --> 00:35:53,264 who assisted me so unselfishly. 566 00:35:54,917 --> 00:35:58,270 They enabled me to get two degrees, 567 00:35:58,270 --> 00:35:59,603 a BA and a BCOM. 568 00:36:10,081 --> 00:36:13,708 - The prison authorities would always like people to believe 569 00:36:13,708 --> 00:36:17,041 that they encouraged prisoners to study, 570 00:36:18,152 --> 00:36:21,553 but my experience with them was that they didn't like 571 00:36:21,553 --> 00:36:24,470 to see us progressing academically. 572 00:36:25,715 --> 00:36:28,890 Even if you had finished your work, 573 00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:32,127 you were not allowed to study during the day. 574 00:36:32,127 --> 00:36:35,138 Should they find you studying during the day, 575 00:36:35,138 --> 00:36:40,023 they would tell you that your privilege would be withdrawn. 576 00:36:40,023 --> 00:36:41,361 We used to study during the day, 577 00:36:41,361 --> 00:36:43,697 but to do it, we'd have to hide. 578 00:36:43,697 --> 00:36:47,142 For instance, I remember myself and my study partners, 579 00:36:47,142 --> 00:36:48,938 we used to study in the toilet during the day 580 00:36:48,938 --> 00:36:51,981 and other comrades would be watching for us. 581 00:36:51,981 --> 00:36:55,037 If a warder comes, they would tip us 582 00:36:55,037 --> 00:36:59,037 that he was coming and then we'd fold our books. 583 00:37:04,217 --> 00:37:07,538 - There was a raging debate right from the beginning, 584 00:37:07,538 --> 00:37:11,797 some saying, "Let's treat these people as human beings. 585 00:37:11,797 --> 00:37:13,792 "It has happened on other occasions 586 00:37:13,792 --> 00:37:16,068 "that people who have been prisoners 587 00:37:16,068 --> 00:37:18,648 "are released and they have become 588 00:37:18,648 --> 00:37:22,672 "heads of governments and very important people. 589 00:37:22,672 --> 00:37:25,194 "Let us prepare for that day. 590 00:37:25,194 --> 00:37:27,607 "And, let us give them newspapers. 591 00:37:27,607 --> 00:37:30,013 "Let us allow them radios." 592 00:37:30,013 --> 00:37:31,320 But there were others who said, 593 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,153 "Look, we must not take that risk. 594 00:37:35,574 --> 00:37:38,824 "What we must do is to get these people 595 00:37:39,807 --> 00:37:42,640 "to understand that opposing white 596 00:37:44,046 --> 00:37:47,400 "supremacy is a disaster for them." 597 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,317 (sentimental orchestral music) 598 00:37:52,965 --> 00:37:54,494 - [Narrator] The warders in the prison 599 00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:56,872 were exclusively white and drawn mainly 600 00:37:56,872 --> 00:37:58,961 from rural Afrikaans families, 601 00:37:58,961 --> 00:38:01,961 which were notoriously conservative. 602 00:38:14,755 --> 00:38:18,922 - If you hear the name ANC or PAC or Umkhonto We Sizwe, 603 00:38:21,061 --> 00:38:25,660 you know that it's a communist, and that's your enemy. 604 00:38:25,660 --> 00:38:27,888 That's how you are grown up. 605 00:38:27,888 --> 00:38:30,924 Anything that, or even Nelson Mandela, 606 00:38:30,924 --> 00:38:34,424 if you hear that name, your hair is risen, 607 00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:37,323 if that is the correct word. 608 00:38:37,323 --> 00:38:38,614 That is the enemy. 609 00:38:38,614 --> 00:38:40,390 That is a communist. 610 00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:44,700 That is the people going to take over our country. 611 00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:47,076 - It was a cultural shock for them to enter Robben Island 612 00:38:47,076 --> 00:38:51,319 and find a Catholic saying, "I want to see my priest." 613 00:38:51,344 --> 00:38:53,682 It was a shock for them to find somebody speaking Afrikaans 614 00:38:53,682 --> 00:38:57,165 because they thought we could only speak Russian or Cuban. 615 00:38:57,165 --> 00:38:59,466 It was a shock for them to find that they're dealing 616 00:38:59,466 --> 00:39:03,462 with a highly-educated and highly-intellectual people. 617 00:39:03,462 --> 00:39:06,600 Eventually, those stereotypes fell, 618 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,365 we broke walls between ourselves and them, 619 00:39:10,365 --> 00:39:13,631 and we were able to find common ground, 620 00:39:13,631 --> 00:39:17,239 and, of course, friendships were built, strong ones. 621 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,906 (reverent orchestral music) 622 00:39:23,887 --> 00:39:25,315 - I don't think some evil genius 623 00:39:25,315 --> 00:39:27,162 in Pretoria thought it out, so to speak. 624 00:39:27,162 --> 00:39:30,995 It was a systemically determined relationship, 625 00:39:32,214 --> 00:39:36,748 that that was something that was cruel not just to us, 626 00:39:36,748 --> 00:39:38,420 but particularly to the warders 627 00:39:38,420 --> 00:39:42,384 because what it meant was that their innermost, 628 00:39:42,384 --> 00:39:45,668 the innermost components of their own identity 629 00:39:45,668 --> 00:39:48,012 were being challenged in day-to-day practise. 630 00:39:48,012 --> 00:39:51,285 They saw, daily, that we were scholars, 631 00:39:51,285 --> 00:39:52,822 that we were very organised people, 632 00:39:52,822 --> 00:39:54,464 we were disciplined people, 633 00:39:54,464 --> 00:39:56,338 we were articulate people and so forth. 634 00:39:56,338 --> 00:39:58,901 They saw that daily, and no matter what they may have 635 00:39:58,901 --> 00:40:02,973 thought or said initially, those things obviously undermined 636 00:40:02,973 --> 00:40:05,872 and eroded eventually all the images that they had 637 00:40:05,872 --> 00:40:10,277 in their heads about us and made them vulnerable. 638 00:40:10,277 --> 00:40:13,777 - Of course, when I went to Robben Island, 639 00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:18,363 those days, you know, you were 640 00:40:18,363 --> 00:40:20,907 told these people are terrorists. 641 00:40:20,907 --> 00:40:24,324 It was fed to you every day in the media, 642 00:40:25,962 --> 00:40:28,849 the radio, whatever, you know? 643 00:40:28,849 --> 00:40:31,145 And that is what you thought, 644 00:40:31,145 --> 00:40:34,320 that you're gonna find a lot of monsters there. 645 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,344 And when I got there, you know, 646 00:40:37,344 --> 00:40:41,779 I sort of kept my distance in the beginning. 647 00:40:41,779 --> 00:40:45,676 - An ordinary warder can be more important 648 00:40:45,676 --> 00:40:47,809 than the Commissioner of Prisons 649 00:40:47,809 --> 00:40:51,053 and even the Minister of Justice 650 00:40:51,053 --> 00:40:53,957 because if you went to the Commissioner of Prisons, 651 00:40:53,957 --> 00:40:58,411 or the Minister, and you said, "Sir, it's very cold. 652 00:40:58,411 --> 00:41:00,400 "I want four blankets." 653 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,520 He is going to look at the regulations and he says, 654 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,874 "No, the regulation says he can only have three blankets. 655 00:41:05,874 --> 00:41:07,426 "Four blankets, I can't! 656 00:41:07,426 --> 00:41:09,869 "It's a violation of the regulations. 657 00:41:09,869 --> 00:41:12,319 "And if I give you four blankets, 658 00:41:12,319 --> 00:41:15,157 "I'll have to give others four blankets." 659 00:41:15,157 --> 00:41:18,603 But if you go to your warder in your section, 660 00:41:18,603 --> 00:41:20,821 and you say, "Look, I want an extra blanket." 661 00:41:20,821 --> 00:41:23,321 If you treat him with respect, 662 00:41:26,548 --> 00:41:29,215 he'll just go to the store room, 663 00:41:30,195 --> 00:41:33,574 give you an extra blanket, and that's the end of it. 664 00:41:33,574 --> 00:41:35,716 - You know, since he's been out, 665 00:41:35,716 --> 00:41:37,617 he's phoned me on a few occasions, 666 00:41:37,617 --> 00:41:42,432 and he calls me James and I call him Mr. Mandela. 667 00:41:42,432 --> 00:41:44,290 - [Interviewer] Didn't it feel weird to you, 668 00:41:44,290 --> 00:41:48,741 that you were the warder and he was the prisoner? 669 00:41:48,741 --> 00:41:51,646 - Not really, I think we understood each other too well, 670 00:41:51,646 --> 00:41:54,063 so it wasn't weird, you know. 671 00:41:55,550 --> 00:41:57,553 He had no animosity towards me 672 00:41:57,553 --> 00:42:00,418 and I had no animosity towards him. 673 00:42:00,418 --> 00:42:03,501 The relationship was very, very good. 674 00:42:04,498 --> 00:42:06,831 We would sit and talk hours. 675 00:42:07,928 --> 00:42:10,729 He never tried to convert me to his politics 676 00:42:10,729 --> 00:42:12,692 but, you know, general things. 677 00:42:12,692 --> 00:42:16,050 News, you know, what's happening and that. 678 00:42:16,050 --> 00:42:19,729 So there was a very good relationship between the two of us. 679 00:42:19,729 --> 00:42:21,980 There still is today. 680 00:42:21,980 --> 00:42:26,066 - [Interviewer] How would you describe him as a person? 681 00:42:26,066 --> 00:42:28,120 - Um, Mr. Mandela? 682 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,537 Since I've met him, till now, 683 00:42:32,653 --> 00:42:35,076 he's a perfect gentleman. 684 00:42:35,076 --> 00:42:37,659 That's all I can say about him. 685 00:42:41,751 --> 00:42:44,911 - Robben Island is a small place. 686 00:42:44,911 --> 00:42:48,994 Prison on Robben Island is also a small building. 687 00:42:51,477 --> 00:42:54,625 To survive there, the mind must have wide and far. 688 00:42:54,625 --> 00:42:56,607 You must read, you must do all sorts of things, 689 00:42:56,607 --> 00:43:00,100 but of course you keep physically fit also. 690 00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:01,784 Because if you are sitting in one place, 691 00:43:01,784 --> 00:43:03,999 my cell was two metres by two metres. 692 00:43:03,999 --> 00:43:06,463 To be stuck there for 13 years is a long time, 693 00:43:06,463 --> 00:43:08,193 so you need to go out and play sports. 694 00:43:08,193 --> 00:43:09,776 We would do anything to play all 695 00:43:09,776 --> 00:43:12,791 types of sports on Robben Island. 696 00:43:12,791 --> 00:43:14,503 We even tried golf. 697 00:43:14,503 --> 00:43:17,243 They refused because the balls would fall into the ocean 698 00:43:17,243 --> 00:43:19,014 and if they got to the ocean, you were asked 699 00:43:19,039 --> 00:43:20,594 to go there you and may not come back. 700 00:43:20,696 --> 00:43:22,328 (men yelling) (gun fires) 701 00:43:22,584 --> 00:43:25,343 - [Narrator] Sport also became a means of defusing tension 702 00:43:25,343 --> 00:43:28,648 between the rival political organisations in the prison. 703 00:43:28,648 --> 00:43:31,981 (tennis ball thwacking) 704 00:43:33,873 --> 00:43:36,741 - [Interviewer] What was your sport on the island? 705 00:43:36,741 --> 00:43:41,052 - I played tennis, and I played volleyball. 706 00:43:41,052 --> 00:43:43,642 I probably played other games. 707 00:43:43,642 --> 00:43:46,151 What is this game where you throw a ring? 708 00:43:46,151 --> 00:43:47,235 - Quoits. - Eh? 709 00:43:47,235 --> 00:43:49,001 - [Interviewer] Quoits, deck quoits? 710 00:43:49,001 --> 00:43:52,260 - No, no, no, no, there is a ring, 711 00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:55,370 a rubber ring where you throw over the net. 712 00:43:55,370 --> 00:43:56,632 What do you call it? 713 00:43:56,632 --> 00:43:58,632 Ladies, you should know. 714 00:44:00,419 --> 00:44:04,654 I'll remember the name, now, and, of course, 715 00:44:04,654 --> 00:44:07,571 we had indoor games as well, chess, 716 00:44:09,126 --> 00:44:11,376 draughts, dominoes, you know, 717 00:44:12,991 --> 00:44:17,158 and one of the other game where you had some rich? 718 00:44:20,212 --> 00:44:21,879 Scrabble was played. 719 00:44:23,391 --> 00:44:27,391 But there's another game which was very popular. 720 00:44:28,578 --> 00:44:29,615 - [Interviewer] Monopoly? 721 00:44:29,615 --> 00:44:32,047 - Monopoly, yes, mm-hmm. 722 00:44:33,878 --> 00:44:37,405 Tennikoit, the other, what do you call, tennikoit, yes. 723 00:44:37,405 --> 00:44:39,626 I played those, mm. 724 00:44:39,626 --> 00:44:41,797 - [Interviewer] It's a funny idea, a lot of 725 00:44:42,132 --> 00:44:44,804 left-wing politicians playing Monopoly on Robben Island. 726 00:44:44,829 --> 00:44:47,829 - Yes, quite, yes, yes, that's true. 727 00:44:48,791 --> 00:44:50,466 - [Interviewer] Understanding capitalism. 728 00:44:50,466 --> 00:44:51,868 (Nelson laughs) 729 00:44:51,868 --> 00:44:55,369 - Right through the period of Christmas, 730 00:44:55,369 --> 00:44:57,286 competition of singing. 731 00:44:59,369 --> 00:45:02,619 We were placed in our particular group, 732 00:45:04,646 --> 00:45:08,313 in a position whereby windows could be used. 733 00:45:09,387 --> 00:45:10,736 Now, you can open windows. 734 00:45:10,736 --> 00:45:13,069 It was not a typical prison. 735 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,967 We were able to sing and make competition. 736 00:45:17,967 --> 00:45:20,903 - [Walter] We would stand at these windows, 737 00:45:20,903 --> 00:45:24,486 Brenda and Ita, or someone reciting a poem, 738 00:45:27,363 --> 00:45:30,113 and amazingly the acoustics there 739 00:45:31,067 --> 00:45:35,234 were so good that the voice travelled right down the passage. 740 00:45:36,190 --> 00:45:39,057 - [Interviewer] What did you do? 741 00:45:39,057 --> 00:45:43,224 - Well, I used to sing, as well as others used to sing 742 00:45:44,851 --> 00:45:46,434 a variety of songs. 743 00:45:48,895 --> 00:45:52,895 There used to be some who would sing Blue River, 744 00:45:55,206 --> 00:45:57,289 and others who would sing 745 00:45:59,522 --> 00:46:01,939 Be Mine, and so on and so on. 746 00:46:03,891 --> 00:46:07,018 There was such a good range of music 747 00:46:07,018 --> 00:46:09,524 that came through those rooms. 748 00:46:09,524 --> 00:46:12,691 Under starlit skies 749 00:46:14,998 --> 00:46:17,165 Be mine 750 00:46:18,226 --> 00:46:22,393 When the night falls into a lullaby 751 00:46:25,561 --> 00:46:29,144 My arms will embrace you 752 00:46:30,682 --> 00:46:34,515 Thrill you with love divine 753 00:46:36,229 --> 00:46:39,396 And now is the time 754 00:46:40,495 --> 00:46:44,578 To whisper that you'll be mine 755 00:46:45,801 --> 00:46:48,884 Come into my heart 756 00:46:50,037 --> 00:46:52,954 And stay forever 757 00:46:55,453 --> 00:46:57,941 Say that you love me 758 00:46:57,941 --> 00:47:01,115 Tell me that you'll be mine 759 00:47:01,115 --> 00:47:03,787 - There were guys who went ballroom dancing 760 00:47:03,787 --> 00:47:06,960 before they came to prison, so they taught some of us 761 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,059 who have never been introduced to the art. 762 00:47:10,059 --> 00:47:12,600 So we would do these things in the cells, and there would be 763 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,683 competitions for an outstanding pair. 764 00:47:18,212 --> 00:47:20,807 There would be another club because the club 765 00:47:20,807 --> 00:47:22,345 would attract the attention of the warders, 766 00:47:22,345 --> 00:47:24,531 that there's something of an entertainment 767 00:47:24,531 --> 00:47:27,390 that is going on in the cell, which was supposed 768 00:47:27,390 --> 00:47:29,516 not to be the case because the cell 769 00:47:29,516 --> 00:47:32,133 was supposed to be a place of gloom, 770 00:47:32,133 --> 00:47:36,040 of brooding and anxiety and all that kind of thing. 771 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,613 But we brightened up the cell, you know, 772 00:47:37,613 --> 00:47:39,973 and engaged in this kind of activity, 773 00:47:39,973 --> 00:47:42,249 so for an outstanding performance, 774 00:47:42,249 --> 00:47:45,604 the chairperson would say, "Give them a brush." 775 00:47:45,604 --> 00:47:47,811 A brush would be like this, not a clap, like this, 776 00:47:47,811 --> 00:47:50,383 because a clap would attract their attention, 777 00:47:50,383 --> 00:47:52,398 so a brush like this, "Give them a brush." 778 00:47:52,398 --> 00:47:54,148 Not give them a clap. 779 00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,219 - We knew no tyrant is there for all time, 780 00:48:02,407 --> 00:48:06,785 and that in the long run, however well-armed 781 00:48:06,785 --> 00:48:09,952 the tyrant was, the will of the people 782 00:48:11,622 --> 00:48:15,705 would overcome the tyrant's forces, that we knew. 783 00:48:18,917 --> 00:48:20,334 And the people... 784 00:48:23,281 --> 00:48:26,364 The people that struggle for freedom, 785 00:48:28,363 --> 00:48:32,706 the people that struggle for liberation from oppression, 786 00:48:32,706 --> 00:48:36,873 and worse oppression that is accompanied by racism, 787 00:48:38,052 --> 00:48:40,635 as in the case of South Africa, 788 00:48:42,173 --> 00:48:45,423 an organisation that leads such people, 789 00:48:47,919 --> 00:48:51,008 the nationalists didn't learn this lesson, 790 00:48:51,008 --> 00:48:54,809 probably they haven't learned even today, 791 00:48:54,809 --> 00:48:58,559 that such an organisation can't be destroyed. 792 00:49:01,163 --> 00:49:03,588 - [Narrator] Faced with the prospect of economic collapse, 793 00:49:03,588 --> 00:49:06,873 the South African government decided in the late-1980s 794 00:49:06,873 --> 00:49:11,148 to prepare for a negotiated transition to majority rule. 795 00:49:11,148 --> 00:49:13,353 As part of this opening-up process, 796 00:49:13,353 --> 00:49:15,680 several of the original Rivonia group were 797 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,847 released from their life sentences in October, 1989. 798 00:49:24,074 --> 00:49:28,241 - The very first day I did not believe whether it's Andrew. 799 00:49:29,986 --> 00:49:33,153 I was not sure whether to touch Andrew 800 00:49:34,319 --> 00:49:38,486 or whether to do what, but anyway, when days went on, 801 00:49:41,326 --> 00:49:45,493 I did not even wish to leave him alone for a few minutes. 802 00:49:47,173 --> 00:49:49,090 I wanted to be with him 803 00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:52,973 every five minutes. 804 00:49:54,144 --> 00:49:58,776 Even when they were to come to the office there, 805 00:49:58,776 --> 00:50:02,943 that thing came back to say, "Oh, I'm alone again." 806 00:50:04,782 --> 00:50:07,084 - The only thing which is still a problem 807 00:50:07,084 --> 00:50:09,751 between my wife and I is lights. 808 00:50:11,328 --> 00:50:14,851 I think I got used to lights and I like light anyway. 809 00:50:14,851 --> 00:50:17,445 I don't like darkness. 810 00:50:17,445 --> 00:50:20,362 So my wife takes the opposite view. 811 00:50:21,799 --> 00:50:26,170 (chuckles) She switches off the light, I switch on, 812 00:50:26,170 --> 00:50:30,389 and that is like the prison and the warder. 813 00:50:30,389 --> 00:50:33,587 Prisoner, I'm not sure whether it was there, 814 00:50:33,587 --> 00:50:36,960 in some cases, they put on the light. 815 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,488 You switch off. 816 00:50:38,488 --> 00:50:41,402 (switch clicks) 817 00:50:41,402 --> 00:50:44,000 - [Narrator] Nelson Mandela chose to remain in prison 818 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:45,815 until the government agreed to the terms 819 00:50:45,815 --> 00:50:49,232 on which negotiations would be conducted. 820 00:50:50,168 --> 00:50:52,876 As the most famous political prisoner in the world, 821 00:50:52,876 --> 00:50:57,043 he became the focus of intense international interest. 822 00:50:58,347 --> 00:51:00,285 By refusing to agree to his release 823 00:51:00,285 --> 00:51:03,279 until he felt his demands had been met, he forced 824 00:51:03,279 --> 00:51:07,446 his captors into an increasingly humiliating position. 825 00:51:10,292 --> 00:51:11,270 - [Interviewer] When you first met him, 826 00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:15,447 did you think he'd play such a leading role one day? 827 00:51:15,447 --> 00:51:19,530 - To tell you the truth, I had no idea, not then. 828 00:51:20,412 --> 00:51:21,912 It was only later. 829 00:51:22,848 --> 00:51:26,848 I would say from 1985, 1986, I started realising 830 00:51:29,236 --> 00:51:33,153 what is happening because I was also, you know, 831 00:51:36,538 --> 00:51:40,141 interest on both sides, let me put it that way. 832 00:51:40,141 --> 00:51:41,788 I think he started realising, you know, 833 00:51:41,788 --> 00:51:45,955 that this is going somewhere, really going somewhere. 834 00:51:47,371 --> 00:51:51,538 I mean, you know, maybe being the future President. 835 00:51:53,567 --> 00:51:56,317 I mean, not only through my work, 836 00:51:58,056 --> 00:52:00,889 but, you know, I'm an avid reader, 837 00:52:02,990 --> 00:52:06,619 and two and two, you can put two and two together, 838 00:52:06,619 --> 00:52:08,952 and so on, that they had to, 839 00:52:10,631 --> 00:52:14,548 change had to come, you know, to majority rule. 840 00:52:15,423 --> 00:52:17,642 And it is, I mean, there. 841 00:52:17,642 --> 00:52:20,392 (sirens wailing) 842 00:52:22,432 --> 00:52:23,758 - [Reporter] There's Mr. Mandela, 843 00:52:23,758 --> 00:52:27,139 Mr. Nelson Mandela, a free man, 844 00:52:27,139 --> 00:52:31,056 taking his first steps into a new South Africa. 845 00:52:35,437 --> 00:52:37,697 - [Narrator] Mandela's release after 27 years 846 00:52:37,697 --> 00:52:39,971 opened the way for negotiations with the government 847 00:52:39,971 --> 00:52:42,871 and the release of all remaining political prisoners. 848 00:52:42,871 --> 00:52:45,871 (crowd socialising) 849 00:54:37,221 --> 00:54:39,084 - [Narrator] Today, Robben Island is still used 850 00:54:39,084 --> 00:54:42,586 as a prison for common-law criminals. 851 00:54:42,586 --> 00:54:45,067 Walter Sisulu and Andrew Mlangeni were 852 00:54:45,067 --> 00:54:47,070 both kept in the isolation section 853 00:54:47,070 --> 00:54:50,403 when it housed only political prisoners. 854 00:54:52,921 --> 00:54:56,716 On this return visit to show the island to their wives, 855 00:54:56,716 --> 00:54:58,449 the only rules they must follow 856 00:54:58,449 --> 00:55:01,112 are those that apply to ordinary tourists. 857 00:55:01,112 --> 00:55:04,862 But the prison itself is still out of bounds. 858 00:55:06,687 --> 00:55:10,038 - "The following rules are applicable 859 00:55:10,038 --> 00:55:13,159 "to all visitors to Robben Island. 860 00:55:13,159 --> 00:55:16,845 "Conversations with prisoners will not be allowed. 861 00:55:16,845 --> 00:55:20,213 "No parcels or articles of any kind are 862 00:55:20,213 --> 00:55:23,880 "to be handed to or received from prisoners. 863 00:55:25,941 --> 00:55:29,001 "Your visit will be on your own risk. 864 00:55:29,001 --> 00:55:31,863 "The management of Robben Island 865 00:55:31,863 --> 00:55:34,678 "do not accept any responsibility 866 00:55:34,678 --> 00:55:38,261 "for damage incurred or injuries sustained. 867 00:55:39,284 --> 00:55:41,931 "Fauna and flora and marine life 868 00:55:41,931 --> 00:55:45,473 "may not be disturbed in any way." 869 00:55:45,473 --> 00:55:49,390 - Good Lord, they have spoiled this quarry now. 870 00:55:50,535 --> 00:55:53,921 They are proud to destroy the history of this place here. 871 00:55:53,921 --> 00:55:55,138 - We are now standing where people 872 00:55:55,138 --> 00:55:56,956 like Mhlaba used to work here. 873 00:55:56,956 --> 00:55:57,789 - Yes! 874 00:55:57,789 --> 00:55:59,155 - The lime quarry, my dear. 875 00:55:59,155 --> 00:55:59,988 - This is history. 876 00:55:59,988 --> 00:56:02,353 Why are they making a dumping place? 877 00:56:02,353 --> 00:56:04,033 - [Andrew] We did everything here. 878 00:56:04,033 --> 00:56:05,562 - [Albertina] Yeah, education-- 879 00:56:05,562 --> 00:56:07,298 - Politics, everything here. 880 00:56:07,298 --> 00:56:08,960 (wife laughs) 881 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,152 Academic studies, everything here. 882 00:56:12,152 --> 00:56:14,452 Singing was not allowed in the first place. 883 00:56:14,452 --> 00:56:15,325 - [Johanna] Oh. 884 00:56:15,325 --> 00:56:18,828 - See, all prisoners, it's a tradition they sing 885 00:56:18,828 --> 00:56:21,745 in order to get, you know, energy. 886 00:56:22,814 --> 00:56:24,551 - [Andrew] Also, it raises the morale of-- 887 00:56:24,551 --> 00:56:25,684 - Of the people. 888 00:56:25,684 --> 00:56:28,519 - But, with us, no singing. 889 00:56:28,519 --> 00:56:29,945 - Although Walter can't sing, 890 00:56:29,945 --> 00:56:31,883 but he loves listening to other people-- 891 00:56:31,883 --> 00:56:33,340 - Oh, he is a good singer. 892 00:56:33,340 --> 00:56:34,173 You don't know him. 893 00:56:34,173 --> 00:56:36,447 - Used to, we can say he used to be a good singer. 894 00:56:36,447 --> 00:56:37,553 - He is. 895 00:56:37,553 --> 00:56:38,386 He still is. 896 00:56:38,386 --> 00:56:39,603 (all laughing) 897 00:56:39,603 --> 00:56:43,436 (singing in foreign language) 898 00:56:48,373 --> 00:56:50,678 (all laughing) 899 00:56:50,678 --> 00:56:53,401 - [Johanna] How about the warders? 900 00:56:53,401 --> 00:56:55,209 Where were they deployed? 901 00:56:55,209 --> 00:56:58,697 - [Andrew] There, along those lines, there. 902 00:56:58,697 --> 00:57:01,761 - We bore no ill will, no bitterness 903 00:57:01,761 --> 00:57:05,094 to those people who were so cruel to us. 904 00:57:07,070 --> 00:57:10,508 We felt possibly we could, even in 905 00:57:10,508 --> 00:57:13,091 a small way, rehabilitate them. 906 00:57:15,214 --> 00:57:16,776 When I was released from prison, 907 00:57:16,776 --> 00:57:19,609 I was subjected to banning orders. 908 00:57:20,714 --> 00:57:23,143 And when I went to court after transgressing 909 00:57:23,143 --> 00:57:26,479 my banning orders, one of the security policemen 910 00:57:26,479 --> 00:57:28,327 who had tortured me in detention, 911 00:57:28,327 --> 00:57:31,225 came up to say hello, and he offered me his hand. 912 00:57:31,225 --> 00:57:33,827 I took his hand and I said hello. 913 00:57:33,827 --> 00:57:37,494 - One is grateful, although it was a tragedy 914 00:57:39,263 --> 00:57:43,695 that you had the opportunity to lead another life, 915 00:57:43,695 --> 00:57:46,735 and to be able to stand back from you 916 00:57:46,735 --> 00:57:49,929 and your work and to look at it from a distance, 917 00:57:49,929 --> 00:57:52,234 and be able to evaluate your work 918 00:57:52,234 --> 00:57:54,937 and the mistakes that you made. 919 00:57:54,937 --> 00:57:57,255 It offered us that opportunity. 920 00:57:57,255 --> 00:58:00,028 - [Interviewer] And do you think that's benefited you? 921 00:58:00,028 --> 00:58:01,066 - Oh, naturally. 922 00:58:01,066 --> 00:58:05,072 It benefited not only me, but others as well. 923 00:58:05,072 --> 00:58:08,748 - I'm supposed to be a very angry man, 924 00:58:08,748 --> 00:58:12,818 but I think, as a Christian, I understand, 925 00:58:12,818 --> 00:58:16,985 and I hope they will realise what they've done to me. 926 00:58:17,991 --> 00:58:20,825 I hate to make myself an isolated case, 927 00:58:20,825 --> 00:58:23,394 but I still needed to be a young person, 928 00:58:23,394 --> 00:58:27,421 I still needed to be a boyfriend to a girlfriend, 929 00:58:27,421 --> 00:58:29,921 I still needed to play around. 930 00:58:32,898 --> 00:58:37,065 So I'll say prison really took all the days of my youth. 931 00:58:39,287 --> 00:58:41,870 (birds cawing) 932 00:58:46,144 --> 00:58:50,061 (classic guitar music)