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--> 00:00:02.22 |
- I am Julian Assange, |
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--> 00:00:05.05 |
(muffled speaking
over walkie-talkie) |
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--> 00:00:06.19 |
editor of WikiLeaks. |
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--> 00:00:08.21 |
We've exposed the world's secrets. |
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--> 00:00:10.17 |
- These documents belong to the United
States government. |
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--> 00:00:12.10 |
- Been attacked by the powerful. |
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--> 00:00:14.21 |
- The United States strongly condemns |
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--> 00:00:15.21 |
- Hey, quit asking questions. |
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--> 00:00:16.21 |
- He broke the law. |
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--> 00:00:18.08 |
- Illegally shoot the son of a bitch. |
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--> 00:00:22.11 |
- For 500 days now I've been detained
without charge, |
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--> 00:00:24.19 |
but that hasn't stopped us. |
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--> 00:00:25.14 |
Fight back! |
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--> 00:00:26.21 |
- Fight back! |
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--> 00:00:30.01 |
- Today we're on a quest for revolutionary
ideas |
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--> 00:00:32.24 |
that can change the world tomorrow. |
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--> 00:00:35.16 |
This week I speak to |
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the leader of the Malaysian opposition,
Anwar Ibrahim, |
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--> 00:00:41.05 |
as a rising internal rival to |
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--> 00:00:43.13 |
the former Prime Minister Mahathir. |
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--> 00:00:45.12 |
Anwar was in prison for five years |
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--> 00:00:48.07 |
after being smeared with sex allegations. |
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--> 00:00:51.14 |
As a result of a popular campaign in 2004, |
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--> 00:00:53.07 |
his conviction was overturned |
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--> 00:00:55.14 |
and he was released from prison. |
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--> 00:00:59.20 |
In 2008, he was again targeted with sex
crimes allegations. |
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--> 00:01:03.00 |
He won the case early this year. |
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--> 00:01:04.15 |
With Malaysian elections looming |
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--> 00:01:06.11 |
and Anwar tipped to win, |
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--> 00:01:09.21 |
he is now being charged with unauthorized
assembly. |
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--> 00:01:12.23 |
If found convicted, he will be prevented
from running. |
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--> 00:01:15.12 |
I want to know how has he
survived |
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--> 00:01:19.11 |
and what does he see as the future of Asia
and the West. |
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--> 00:01:23.04 |
Anwar Ibrahim, you were a student activist |
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--> 00:01:25.07 |
from your early days within Malaysia |
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--> 00:01:28.09 |
and you were imprisoned as a young man. |
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--> 00:01:30.15 |
Can you tell me a little bit about |
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--> 00:01:33.21 |
what your big political progression is over
this time? |
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--> 00:01:38.00 |
- I was arrested for supporting farmers in
the north, |
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--> 00:01:44.10 |
demanding some fairer treatment from the
government. |
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--> 00:01:49.10 |
I did two years in detention without trial, |
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--> 00:01:52.03 |
there was Internal Security Act, |
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--> 00:01:55.22 |
but later when Mahathir became prime
minister, |
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--> 00:02:00.07 |
he came with a mission clearly as a
reformer, |
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--> 00:02:02.09 |
and I was, frankly, attracted to that. |
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--> 00:02:03.24 |
We had a series of discussions |
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--> 00:02:07.01 |
and I joined on this reform platform. |
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--> 00:02:13.10 |
I came up very fast to become deputy prime minister |
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--> 00:02:17.10 |
only to be sent back for six years
imprisonment. |
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--> 00:02:22.18 |
- Under Mahathir, there are a number of
people |
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--> 00:02:26.04 |
who came up to the position of being deputy
prime minister |
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--> 00:02:28.15 |
and were cast out one by one, |
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--> 00:02:34.01 |
but your fall from grace was the most
dramatic. |
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--> 00:02:35.22 |
Can you tell me what happened? |
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--> 00:02:37.14 |
- I was of course badly assaulted |
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the first day I was sent to police custody. |
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--> 00:02:48.10 |
I was sent then to solitary confinement in
prison. |
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--> 00:02:52.08 |
It was of course not a bed of roses, it was
tough. |
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--> 00:02:54.24 |
Initially I was not given even books to
read, |
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--> 00:02:58.19 |
but the international media and friends
internationally |
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--> 00:03:00.08 |
did voice out |
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--> 00:03:03.17 |
and I think finally they did concede and
allowed books, |
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--> 00:03:07.04 |
and I thought I'd become slightly smarter, |
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--> 00:03:10.13 |
being able to read the complete works of
Shakespeare |
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four and a half times. |
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--> 00:03:13.01 |
That's rare. |
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--> 00:03:14.08 |
(laughing) |
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--> 00:03:18.20 |
All the classics, Boris Pasternak
and Tolstoy, |
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--> 00:03:22.07 |
you re-read them in prison and it's
interesting. |
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--> 00:03:24.20 |
From the prism of prison walls, |
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you understand, you appreciate better. |
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--> 00:03:29.08 |
There's no interruption, |
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--> 00:03:32.10 |
you immerse yourself in the storyline. |
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--> 00:03:36.00 |
Sometimes a bit depressing of course
(laughs) |
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--> 00:03:37.08 |
having to look at the walls, |
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--> 00:03:39.14 |
but you become part player. |
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I've never internalized or appreciated |
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King Lear, the dialogue with Cordelia |
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until in solitary confinement. |
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- When I was in prison and I read Cancer
Ward, |
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this book by Solzhenitsyn, |
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--> 00:04:05.24 |
which is a very, a wonderful book, |
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--> 00:04:09.12 |
but very, very depressing
and very brutal, |
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--> 00:04:14.08 |
but I felt, well, there's worse places I
could be. |
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--> 00:04:17.12 |
I could be in a Siberian cancer ward with
cancer, |
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--> 00:04:18.08 |
for instance. |
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--> 00:04:20.11 |
(laughing) |
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--> 00:04:23.14 |
What did you feel as, this is of interest to
me |
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--> 00:04:27.15 |
because I have a number of friends who have
been imprisoned, |
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--> 00:04:31.12 |
you're view about how to handle the
experience. |
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--> 00:04:34.01 |
Did you have a method? |
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--> 00:04:37.03 |
How did you control the perception of the
passage of time |
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--> 00:04:38.21 |
and things like this? |
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--> 00:04:41.18 |
- Well, it was tough. |
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--> 00:04:44.04 |
Now you think it may sound easy, |
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--> 00:04:45.24 |
but at that particular time
it was very tough |
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--> 00:04:48.16 |
because my kids were small then, |
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--> 00:04:53.08 |
the youngest was still in kindergarten |
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--> 00:04:55.00 |
and the time I was arrested |
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--> 00:04:58.23 |
I could just picture their anguish and
despair. |
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--> 00:05:04.08 |
But what gave you some strength, |
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--> 00:05:08.23 |
prison officers and guards were extremely
friendly. |
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--> 00:05:12.14 |
They were very scared, there were cameras
all around, |
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--> 00:05:16.08 |
but you can sense their sympathy and
support. |
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--> 00:05:19.08 |
That keeps you going |
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--> 00:05:20.23 |
because then there are some whisperings |
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--> 00:05:25.10 |
about what was happening, demonstrations
outside, |
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--> 00:05:29.02 |
but otherwise, I just kept myself very busy. |
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--> 00:05:33.13 |
Not always serious, I've got to be very
honest. |
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--> 00:05:36.06 |
I spent long, not long hours, |
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but in the washroom or the bathroom |
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--> 00:05:43.18 |
singing The Beatles or Ricky Nelson or Elvis
Presley. |
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--> 00:05:45.24 |
(laughing) |
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--> 00:05:48.14 |
- And while you're inside, |
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--> 00:05:53.06 |
outside your wife is pushing forward a big
campaign |
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--> 00:05:54.20 |
for your release. |
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--> 00:05:58.18 |
Did you have any idea how big this movement
was |
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--> 00:06:02.22 |
that she had created while you were inside? |
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--> 00:06:03.18 |
- Not really, |
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--> 00:06:07.22 |
but from the whisperings and missives from
the guards, |
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--> 00:06:12.11 |
who sometimes let us smuggle in, |
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--> 00:06:13.07 |
I realized. |
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--> 00:06:17.00 |
I remember some of the prison officers would
tell me, |
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--> 00:06:20.21 |
"I attended the rally 10 miles of Kuala
Lumpur |
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--> 00:06:25.15 |
"and then we
heard your wife and speeches." |
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--> 00:06:26.22 |
And I said, "How many attended?" |
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--> 00:06:28.22 |
They said, "At least 20,000
people!" |
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--> 00:06:33.01 |
So I felt there's
something real happening in Kuala Lumpur. |
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--> 00:06:35.11 |
And I could of course sense that |
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--> 00:06:36.12 |
because the day I was arrested |
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--> 00:06:39.04 |
we had for the first time the biggest every
rally |
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--> 00:06:43.02 |
in the history of Malaysia, 100,0000 people. |
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--> 00:06:46.07 |
I felt greatly encouraged in terms of news |
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--> 00:06:48.23 |
from the prison guards. |
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--> 00:06:51.07 |
They would tell me, "Yeah, we were
there." |
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--> 00:06:55.20 |
And many of them on the quiet became members
of the party. |
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--> 00:06:59.24 |
- Did you have a sense of being part of
Malaysian history, |
00:07:01.22
--> 00:07:05.03 |
of being part of something bigger than
yourself |
00:07:05.03
--> 00:07:07.03 |
when you heard about these protests outside |
00:07:07.03
--> 00:07:12.02 |
and the movement surrounding trying to get
you out? |
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--> 00:07:14.06 |
- You trust in the wisdom of the masses. |
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--> 00:07:17.19 |
How is it that you can gather 100,000 people |
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--> 00:07:19.16 |
without that sophistication, |
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--> 00:07:21.10 |
without media access, |
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--> 00:07:24.14 |
but could still reflect based on |
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--> 00:07:28.20 |
the dictates of their conscience or the
habits of the heart. |
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--> 00:07:30.03 |
- How did you get out? |
00:07:30.03
--> 00:07:33.01 |
In the end, why were you released from
prison, |
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--> 00:07:34.14 |
what was the finding? |
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--> 00:07:36.06 |
- In this case what happened was |
00:07:36.06
--> 00:07:39.05 |
they persuaded the federal court to suggest
that |
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--> 00:07:42.15 |
well, we do believe Anwar may be a bit
guilty, |
00:07:42.15
--> 00:07:45.01 |
but there was no clear evidence |
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--> 00:07:48.03 |
and therefore his
appeal is accepted. |
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--> 00:07:52.09 |
- So you come back
into Malaysia |
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--> 00:07:54.15 |
and in the lead up to 2008, |
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--> 00:08:00.24 |
an extraordinary year in Malaysian politics, |
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--> 00:08:04.04 |
you try and get elected to parliament. |
00:08:07.08
--> 00:08:10.13 |
What happens during that year? |
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--> 00:08:12.13 |
- We worked very hard, |
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--> 00:08:15.19 |
we don't have any access to the media, |
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--> 00:08:19.23 |
the entire media was skewed to support the
ruling party. |
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--> 00:08:23.17 |
Even today as leader of the opposition, |
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--> 00:08:26.17 |
I don't have even one minute of airtime. |
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--> 00:08:29.17 |
That's why I decided to (laughing) |
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--> 00:08:31.11 |
accepted your invitation. |
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--> 00:08:33.11 |
(laughing) |
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--> 00:08:35.24 |
Can you imagine with not a minute of airtime |
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--> 00:08:38.01 |
we could still win five states |
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--> 00:08:39.15 |
including Kuala Lumpur, |
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--> 00:08:43.04 |
we won 10 out of 11 parliamentary seats. |
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--> 00:08:47.08 |
So I believe we are
ripe for some sort of a Malaysia Spring |
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--> 00:08:52.12 |
through the electoral process. |
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--> 00:08:57.11 |
But we worked very hard, and as you said in
2007, 2008, |
00:08:57.11
--> 00:09:01.15 |
and we did work harder among the ethnic
minorities |
00:09:03.19
--> 00:09:06.11 |
because we found that from '99 to 2004, |
00:09:06.11
--> 00:09:07.17 |
they were a bit apprehensive |
00:09:07.17
--> 00:09:10.07 |
because the policies they thought |
00:09:10.07
--> 00:09:12.24 |
struggle among the Malay leaders |
00:09:14.16
--> 00:09:16.15 |
supporting the same policies. |
00:09:16.15
--> 00:09:19.23 |
And I said to the contrary, we are a reform
party |
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--> 00:09:21.22 |
committed to a reform agenda. |
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--> 00:09:25.08 |
Some of the obsolete policies, race-based |
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--> 00:09:28.20 |
has to change with the times. |
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--> 00:09:32.08 |
- I want to look at this change |
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--> 00:09:37.15 |
in the Southeast Asian region. |
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--> 00:09:41.13 |
There was a democracy movement in Indonesia, |
00:09:41.13
--> 00:09:43.06 |
which was successful, |
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--> 00:09:48.14 |
a breakaway of East Timor from Indonesia. |
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--> 00:09:50.14 |
What do you think was driving this? |
00:09:50.14
--> 00:09:51.22 |
Was it the internet? |
00:09:51.22
--> 00:09:56.01 |
Was it greater movement of people amongst
the region? |
00:09:56.01
--> 00:10:00.15 |
Why at this time, you had the Asian economic
crisis, |
00:10:00.15
--> 00:10:03.01 |
was that one of the drivers? |
00:10:03.01
--> 00:10:06.11 |
- You can sense the change taking place in
the region |
00:10:06.11
--> 00:10:10.15 |
because there's an improved, enhanced level
of education, |
00:10:12.00
--> 00:10:14.08 |
people are getting more sophisticated, |
00:10:14.08
--> 00:10:16.23 |
and among the urban and the suburban areas, |
00:10:16.23
--> 00:10:20.02 |
there is also new access to the alternative
media. |
00:10:20.02
--> 00:10:24.07 |
The internet played a very significant role. |
00:10:24.07
--> 00:10:25.24 |
People want freedom, |
00:10:27.09
--> 00:10:31.07 |
and you find this notion in the last
elections, |
00:10:32.03
--> 00:10:33.20 |
it's a growing trend. |
00:10:33.20
--> 00:10:37.06 |
Particularly among the young and
professionals |
00:10:37.06
--> 00:10:38.18 |
and intellectuals. |
00:10:38.18
--> 00:10:41.17 |
So Malaysia is part
and parcel of this change. |
00:10:41.17
--> 00:10:43.16 |
And now with the Arab Spring, |
00:10:43.16
--> 00:10:47.20 |
it's more imminent that we can sense this
change coming. |
00:10:50.05
--> 00:10:52.01 |
You look at Thailand, |
00:10:52.01
--> 00:10:55.06 |
people consider the democratic transition |
00:10:55.06
--> 00:10:57.07 |
somewhat more fragile, |
00:10:57.07
--> 00:11:01.06 |
but in terms of the commitment towards |
00:11:01.06
--> 00:11:04.02 |
a democratic transition was there |
00:11:04.02
--> 00:11:08.02 |
so any sort of a
coup or military dictatorship |
00:11:08.02
--> 00:11:12.00 |
cannot be expected to sustain for far too
long. |
00:11:12.21
--> 00:11:15.09 |
Philippines is more reassuring, |
00:11:15.09
--> 00:11:16.24 |
although they're still having to grapple
with |
00:11:16.24
--> 00:11:19.23 |
the problem of endemic corruption. |
00:11:19.23
--> 00:11:23.14 |
But Burma, which is quite shocking in terms
of change. |
00:11:23.14
--> 00:11:26.19 |
I mean, I am one of the lone voices |
00:11:26.19
--> 00:11:28.22 |
in even Malaysian government those days |
00:11:28.22
--> 00:11:32.04 |
that have never had any hope of |
00:11:32.04
--> 00:11:35.10 |
a military junta reforming itself. |
00:11:35.10
--> 00:11:36.15 |
But I have to acknowledge |
00:11:36.15
--> 00:11:41.02 |
there is some more
positive changes taking place |
00:11:41.02
--> 00:11:42.22 |
in terms of democratic transition, |
00:11:42.22
--> 00:11:45.22 |
access to media, or freer elections, |
00:11:47.07
--> 00:11:50.11 |
Burma is way ahead of Malaysia today. |
00:11:50.11 -->
00:11:51.24 |
- Burma, really? |
00:11:51.24
--> 00:11:52.21 |
Amazing. |
00:11:52.21
--> 00:11:53.17 |
- Yes, yes, |
00:11:53.17
--> 00:11:56.11 |
because you have Aung San Suu Kyi on
television |
00:11:56.11
--> 00:11:57.13 |
and we don't have-- |
00:11:57.13
--> 00:11:59.21 |
- Right, and you're not admitted in practice
on TV. |
00:11:59.21
--> 00:12:01.04 |
- But the second is not democratic. |
00:12:01.04
--> 00:12:04.16 |
I mean, it would be fallacious to assume |
00:12:04.16
--> 00:12:07.14 |
that Burma is a democratic country, |
00:12:07.14
--> 00:12:10.24 |
but you find there's some sort of a |
00:12:10.24
--> 00:12:14.14 |
more positive, more reassuring change
towards |
00:12:14.14
--> 00:12:16.03 |
democratic reform. |
00:12:16.03
--> 00:12:20.01 |
- What do you see is the security situation? |
00:12:20.01
--> 00:12:22.09 |
Julia Gillard the Australian prime minister |
00:12:22.09
--> 00:12:27.01 |
has now agreed to station some 3,000 US
Marines |
00:12:27.01
--> 00:12:29.04 |
in the north of Australia, |
00:12:29.04
--> 00:12:33.06 |
clearly as a sort of long-term push back |
00:12:33.06
--> 00:12:36.12 |
against any possible Chinese influence. |
00:12:37.10
--> 00:12:41.07 |
What's going to happen to these countries in
the middle? |
00:12:41.07
--> 00:12:43.15 |
Do you think that the ASEAN countries |
00:12:43.15
--> 00:12:46.13 |
should form a united security pact? |
00:12:48.18
--> 00:12:53.13 |
- I'm not a great supporter of this security
pacts, |
00:12:53.13
--> 00:12:57.10 |
but there should be a strong regional
understanding |
00:12:57.10
--> 00:12:58.10 |
between these countries, |
00:12:58.10
--> 00:13:00.22 |
political, economic, cultural, |
00:13:01.20
--> 00:13:04.22 |
and that would be enough to show |
00:13:04.22
--> 00:13:08.21 |
they can deter any form of possible
interference |
00:13:08.21
--> 00:13:12.10 |
by outside forces, be it the West or China. |
00:13:13.18
--> 00:13:17.01 |
Because security pact, Julian, for our
countries |
00:13:17.01
--> 00:13:20.01 |
would require enormous sums of money. |
00:13:20.01
--> 00:13:22.12 |
It will always be at the expense of
education, |
00:13:22.12
--> 00:13:25.08 |
public health, housing, and poverty
alleviation, |
00:13:25.08
--> 00:13:28.03 |
and I have that huge problem in my mind. |
00:13:28.03
--> 00:13:30.13 |
- If we don't have some kind of security
pact |
00:13:30.13
--> 00:13:33.09 |
or alliance of the Southeast Asian states, |
00:13:33.09
--> 00:13:35.14 |
won't it be the case that |
00:13:35.14
--> 00:13:38.02 |
China picks off an alliance here, |
00:13:38.02
--> 00:13:42.06 |
another country goes into bed with the
United States |
00:13:43.16
--> 00:13:44.24 |
and in that way, |
00:13:46.21
--> 00:13:50.03 |
there's not a coherent sphere in Southeast
Asia, |
00:13:50.03
--> 00:13:51.22 |
but rather there's sort of a chess board |
00:13:51.22
--> 00:13:53.11 |
with black square and white squares |
00:13:53.11
--> 00:13:56.14 |
and everyone on one side or the other? |
00:13:56.14
--> 00:13:58.08 |
- Well, we can avoid that, |
00:13:58.08
--> 00:14:00.17 |
not necessarily by having a security pact. |
00:14:00.17
--> 00:14:05.08 |
The strong regional body, they have clear
understanding. |
00:14:05.08
--> 00:14:08.22 |
The parameter would include not to allow |
00:14:08.22
--> 00:14:13.01 |
any of our countries to be a base for the superpowers. |
00:14:13.23
--> 00:14:16.04 |
This was the arrangement before. |
00:14:16.04
--> 00:14:19.04 |
The Philippines has a problem because they
already had-- |
00:14:19.04
--> 00:14:21.05 |
- They already had the US for a long time. |
00:14:21.05
--> 00:14:24.10 |
- Yeah, but the understanding was not to
increase. |
00:14:24.10
--> 00:14:28.08 |
- Let's talk a little bit abut Prime Minister Najib |
00:14:28.08
--> 00:14:29.23 |
and the ruling clique. |
00:14:29.23
--> 00:14:32.23 |
When I was in Malaysia in 2009 |
00:14:32.23
--> 00:14:36.17 |
and was very briefly detained by the special
branch, |
00:14:36.17
--> 00:14:38.03 |
the secret police there, (laughing) |
00:14:38.03
--> 00:14:40.11 |
after attending an election, |
00:14:43.00
--> 00:14:46.10 |
the people I was speaking to were saying, |
00:14:47.12
--> 00:14:51.24 |
"Whatever you do, don't mention this Altantuyaa murder." |
00:14:51.24
--> 00:14:54.00 |
This is the murder of the Mongolian beauty |
00:14:54.00
--> 00:14:58.10 |
whose body was blown up with C-4 explosives |
00:14:58.10
--> 00:15:02.14 |
and who was alleged to have been Najib's, |
00:15:02.14
--> 00:15:06.16 |
the now current prime minister's, lover. |
00:15:06.16
--> 00:15:10.13 |
And my response to this was, well, why not? |
00:15:10.13
--> 00:15:12.11 |
Well, because as soon as you do, |
00:15:12.11
--> 00:15:14.10 |
if we ever do this at a rally, |
00:15:14.10
--> 00:15:18.00 |
the police turn up and they start arresting
everyone, |
00:15:18.00
--> 00:15:19.24 |
which I thought was a great opportunity |
00:15:19.24
--> 00:15:21.10 |
because whenever you want to have |
00:15:21.10
--> 00:15:22.14 |
a lot of police somewhere, |
00:15:22.14
--> 00:15:24.19 |
you have a button that you can press |
00:15:24.19
--> 00:15:28.23 |
at your time and place of choosing to get
them there. |
00:15:28.23
--> 00:15:31.17 |
Can you describe this murder case |
00:15:32.22
--> 00:15:36.16 |
and why is it still so sensitive in
Malaysia? |
00:15:37.17
--> 00:15:39.08 |
- It should not be sensitive. |
00:15:39.08
--> 00:15:41.22 |
I brought this up in parliament |
00:15:42.22
--> 00:15:46.10 |
and of course the
speaker, or the members, |
00:15:48.21
--> 00:15:50.03 |
they seemed to be very upset. |
00:15:50.03
--> 00:15:53.05 |
I did not in any way infer that Najib |
00:15:54.23
--> 00:15:57.16 |
was even complicit to the murder. |
00:15:57.16
--> 00:16:02.12 |
What we said was there were major questions
unresolved. |
00:16:02.12
--> 00:16:04.24 |
Number one, why did you change the charge? |
00:16:04.24
--> 00:16:09.02 |
Number two, why was there no proper
investigation? |
00:16:09.02
--> 00:16:11.13 |
Number three, why were the key people |
00:16:11.13
--> 00:16:14.20 |
not called as witnesses in the case? |
00:16:14.20
--> 00:16:16.12 |
It's a major issue. |
00:16:16.12
--> 00:16:19.13 |
And this case, the mother of Altantuyaa |
00:16:19.13
--> 00:16:23.10 |
is related to a major corruption scandal |
00:16:23.10
--> 00:16:27.14 |
involving the purchase of two submarines
from France. |
00:16:28.15
--> 00:16:31.15 |
The case now is in the Paris courts. |
00:16:32.16
--> 00:16:35.24 |
How is it it can
be heard and opened up in the Paris court |
00:16:35.24
--> 00:16:38.09 |
and we are completely silent about that? |
00:16:38.09
--> 00:16:40.22 |
- In Malaysia the testimony of |
00:16:40.22
--> 00:16:42.14 |
a number of the witnesses in this case |
00:16:42.14
--> 00:16:44.06 |
was secret for some reason. |
00:16:44.06
--> 00:16:45.11 |
- Yes. |
00:16:45.11
--> 00:16:46.21 |
Secret and worse. |
00:16:47.20
--> 00:16:51.18 |
- In 2008 around the time of the election in
Malaysia, |
00:16:51.18
--> 00:16:55.19 |
you suffered a second accusation of sodomy |
00:16:55.19
--> 00:16:58.04 |
brought by one of your aides. |
00:17:00.11
--> 00:17:02.23 |
- It's just a smear campaign. |
00:17:02.23
--> 00:17:06.10 |
It went on about the sodomy charge in every
village, |
00:17:06.10
--> 00:17:09.18 |
this video about the so-called statement |
00:17:10.19
--> 00:17:12.14 |
from the complainer. |
00:17:12.14
--> 00:17:13.24 |
But, again, as I said, Julian, |
00:17:13.24
--> 00:17:16.09 |
do not underestimate the wisdom of the
people. |
00:17:16.09
--> 00:17:17.19 |
You have the entire cabinet, |
00:17:17.19
--> 00:17:19.06 |
the entire government resources, |
00:17:19.06
--> 00:17:22.11 |
every night in the national media abusing me |
00:17:22.11
--> 00:17:25.13 |
and still I
increase my majority. |
00:17:25.13
--> 00:17:29.16 |
But worse is to use this as a political
ploy, |
00:17:29.16
--> 00:17:31.06 |
trump up charges, |
00:17:31.06
--> 00:17:32.06 |
use the police, |
00:17:32.06
--> 00:17:34.00 |
and finally with the judiciary. |
00:17:34.00
--> 00:17:36.09 |
Although finally, Julian, I was acquitted, |
00:17:36.09
--> 00:17:39.24 |
but never suggest that the judiciary was
independent. |
00:17:39.24
--> 00:17:41.03 |
Right through, |
00:17:41.03
--> 00:17:43.03 |
they could just entertain and allow |
00:17:43.03
--> 00:17:45.01 |
the prosecution just to abuse. |
00:17:45.01
--> 00:17:46.19 |
The most disgusting. |
00:17:46.19
--> 00:17:50.12 |
You know, you use this facade, democracy, |
00:17:50.12
--> 00:17:52.06 |
democratic elections, |
00:17:52.06
--> 00:17:53.16 |
judicial independence, |
00:17:53.16
--> 00:17:55.21 |
and you abuse the process. |
00:17:57.13
--> 00:18:00.09 |
I'm sorry, I sound a bit strong in this
case. (laughs) |
00:18:00.09
--> 00:18:01.07 |
- No, no, no, |
00:18:01.07
--> 00:18:04.20 |
I sometimes feel like speaking this way
myself |
00:18:04.20
--> 00:18:08.24 |
so I'm glad you
did. (laughs) |
00:18:08.24
--> 00:18:12.13 |
Anwar, let's talk about the future. |
00:18:12.13
--> 00:18:15.08 |
We have a good portrait of Malaysia now. |
00:18:15.08
--> 00:18:19.19 |
Let's talk about where Malaysia's going
forward |
00:18:19.19
--> 00:18:22.08 |
and where the region is going forward. |
00:18:22.08
--> 00:18:25.08 |
What is your plan for Malaysia |
00:18:25.08
--> 00:18:30.01 |
if your opposition coalition was to win
government? |
00:18:30.01
--> 00:18:33.21 |
- Immediately we should make sure it's a
democracy. |
00:18:33.21
--> 00:18:34.20 |
Okay? |
00:18:34.20
--> 00:18:39.02 |
We have largely a much better infrastructure |
00:18:39.02
--> 00:18:42.02 |
and more educated workforce, |
00:18:42.02
--> 00:18:45.11 |
and don't treat Malays in such a
condescending manner |
00:18:45.11
--> 00:18:48.11 |
that people are not prepared to |
00:18:48.11
--> 00:18:51.07 |
already to exercise their freedom. |
00:18:53.03
--> 00:18:56.14 |
Which means all the judiciary, free media |
00:18:57.23
--> 00:19:01.14 |
and economic policy that can promote growth, |
00:19:01.14
--> 00:19:02.16 |
market economy, |
00:19:02.16 -->
00:19:05.09 |
at the same time understand the abuses. |
00:19:05.09
--> 00:19:08.23 |
When we talk about in our discourse even the
Arab Spring. |
00:19:08.23
--> 00:19:13.16 |
Arab Spring, one area clamoring
for freedom reform. |
00:19:13.16
--> 00:19:16.17 |
Then we have Occupy Wall Street, |
00:19:16.17
--> 00:19:19.17 |
the limitations, the unbridled greed |
00:19:22.18
--> 00:19:26.10 |
and the gap between the very rich and very
poor, |
00:19:26.10
--> 00:19:31.02 |
complicity between the big business groups
and politics. |
00:19:31.02
--> 00:19:33.24 |
This we need to avoid because you should
learn |
00:19:33.24
--> 00:19:36.03 |
from the frustrations-- |
00:19:36.03
--> 00:19:38.05 |
- From the frustrations in the West? |
00:19:38.05
--> 00:19:39.09 |
- In the West. |
00:19:40.06
--> 00:19:43.02 |
Your experience too and the fact that |
00:19:43.02
--> 00:19:45.11 |
they are now exposed to WikiLeaks. |
00:19:45.11
--> 00:19:48.19 |
You can sense the hypocrisy, the paradox |
00:19:52.21
--> 00:19:54.22 |
and contradictions |
00:19:54.22
--> 00:19:57.07 |
between these pronouncements |
00:19:57.07
--> 00:20:00.01 |
and what was actually the missive sent. |
00:20:00.01
--> 00:20:02.22 |
You made a major contribution. |
00:20:02.22
--> 00:20:04.06 |
Not everybody agree, |
00:20:04.06
--> 00:20:07.09 |
some of the missives are even at my expense, |
00:20:07.09
--> 00:20:09.01 |
but I support that. |
00:20:09.01
--> 00:20:09.22 |
You know why? |
00:20:09.22
--> 00:20:14.00 |
Because you understand what is realpolitik, |
00:20:14.00
--> 00:20:15.14 |
what is the so-called |
00:20:15.14
--> 00:20:18.05 |
hypocrisy of the notion of diplomacy |
00:20:18.05
--> 00:20:22.09 |
that is not based on truth or morality or
ethical standards, |
00:20:24.01
--> 00:20:26.00 |
but pure brute power |
00:20:26.00
--> 00:20:29.07 |
and parochial or national interest. |
00:20:29.07
--> 00:20:31.05 |
So I think this
needs to change. |
00:20:31.05
--> 00:20:33.12 |
Why can Malaysia have to have a century? |
00:20:33.12
--> 00:20:36.08 |
Bring this new sense among Malays, |
00:20:37.11
--> 00:20:39.24 |
Chinese, Indians or Dayas, |
00:20:39.24
--> 00:20:41.24 |
that, look, we are a big family, |
00:20:41.24
--> 00:20:44.03 |
we can move up together. |
00:20:44.03
--> 00:20:45.08 |
Why can't it be done? |
00:20:45.08 -->
00:20:47.11 |
Why is it so difficult? |
00:20:47.11
--> 00:20:48.16 |
It's rich country, you know. |
00:20:48.16
--> 00:20:52.04 |
We have 90 billion ringgit net income from
petroleum. |
00:20:52.04
--> 00:20:55.00 |
We are not like most of our neighbors having to import |
00:20:55.00
--> 00:20:56.15 |
and having this-- |
00:20:56.15
--> 00:20:59.23 |
- What will it take for that to be done? |
00:21:01.09
--> 00:21:03.17 |
Is it a matter of education? |
00:21:05.08
--> 00:21:07.11 |
- No, it is leadership, Julian. |
00:21:07.11
--> 00:21:10.06 |
It's a courage of conviction, tenacity of
purpose. |
00:21:10.06
--> 00:21:12.18 |
You want to do something good, |
00:21:12.18
--> 00:21:15.02 |
you must not be corrupt. |
00:21:15.02
--> 00:21:16.09 |
It has to work. |
00:21:17.20
--> 00:21:20.24 |
And of course
politics is the art of compromise. |
00:21:20.24
--> 00:21:23.16 |
I'm not saying that you are a political
philosopher |
00:21:23.16
--> 00:21:25.11 |
dictating issues, |
00:21:25.11
--> 00:21:28.07 |
but there are certain ground rules |
00:21:29.09
--> 00:21:32.14 |
that you have to accept and adopt. |
00:21:32.14
--> 00:21:35.02 |
The moment you say you are for democracy, |
00:21:35.02
--> 00:21:37.08 |
you become a Western stooge. |
00:21:37.08
--> 00:21:38.24 |
The moment you talk about macro economy, |
00:21:38.24
--> 00:21:41.02 |
you become a Soros agent. |
00:21:42.06
--> 00:21:43.16 |
But you know, these things-- |
00:21:43.16
--> 00:21:44.17 |
- I've been one of those. |
00:21:44.17
--> 00:21:46.18 |
(laughing) |
00:21:46.18
--> 00:21:49.04 |
- Now, the moment I have an interview with
you, |
00:21:49.04
--> 00:21:50.20 |
you know what's going to happen after this. |
00:21:50.20
--> 00:21:52.22 |
(laughs) |
00:21:55.01
--> 00:21:57.13 |
The problem with these authoritarian leaders, |
00:21:57.13
--> 00:22:01.13 |
and at times even the leaders in the West, |
00:22:01.13
--> 00:22:04.07 |
that's including the strong Islamophobia, |
00:22:04.07
--> 00:22:06.01 |
this we against them, |
00:22:07.12
--> 00:22:10.16 |
this unilateral policy of the United States, |
00:22:10.16
--> 00:22:14.20 |
I don't sense that they even ascribe to the
ideals, |
00:22:17.16
--> 00:22:20.09 |
the initial spirit of the American
Revolution |
00:22:20.09
--> 00:22:22.15 |
or Jeffersonian
ideals. |
00:22:22.15 -->
00:22:25.13 |
All the habits of the heart that Tocqueville
talked about. |
00:22:25.13
--> 00:22:26.11 |
They don't. |
00:22:26.11
--> 00:22:28.11 |
And that is our concern. |
00:22:28.11
--> 00:22:31.04 |
But we have to do it in a small way |
00:22:31.04 -->
00:22:32.15 |
in a small country, |
00:22:32.15
--> 00:22:35.15 |
not the ambition to be a great nation on
Earth, |
00:22:35.15
--> 00:22:38.20 |
but at least for Malaysia, what is it? |
00:22:38.20
--> 00:22:43.02 |
Why is it so difficult to make a village
guy, |
00:22:43.02
--> 00:22:44.24 |
a Malay farmer, |
00:22:44.24
--> 00:22:49.02 |
and a Chinese petty trader or an Indian
estate worker |
00:22:49.02
--> 00:22:51.14 |
feel that they're being respected |
00:22:51.14
--> 00:22:53.22 |
and recognized as a citizen, |
00:22:55.12
--> 00:22:58.23 |
given the dignity as a Malay citizen. |
00:22:58.23
--> 00:23:01.07 |
I don't think it takes a lot. |
00:23:01.07
--> 00:23:04.04 |
It takes just conscience, sincerity |
00:23:04.04
--> 00:23:06.21 |
and courage of conviction. |
00:23:06.21
--> 00:23:07.24 |
- Very good. |
00:23:07.24
--> 00:23:11.15 |
Anwar Ibrahim, thank you very much. |
00:23:11.15
--> 00:23:13.15 |
- Thank you. (laughs) |
00:23:13.15
--> 00:23:14.12 |
- Have a good night. |
00:23:14.12
--> 00:23:17.16 |
So that's very nice, thank you, Anwar. |
00:23:18.15
--> 00:23:21.09 |
We've got lots of good material there. |
00:23:21.09
--> 00:23:24.14 |
Actually, just as a matter of curiosity |
00:23:24.14
--> 00:23:26.17 |
I interviewed the president of Tunisia. |
00:23:26.17
--> 00:23:30.07 |
Did you manage to meet with him when you
were over there? |
00:23:30.07
--> 00:23:31.05 |
The new president? |
00:23:31.05
--> 00:23:33.08 |
- Unfortunately at
that time |
00:23:33.08
--> 00:23:37.04 |
they were hosting the Syrian opposition. |
00:23:37.04
--> 00:23:40.08 |
- Oh yeah, the Friends of Syria. |
00:23:40.08
--> 00:23:43.03 |
- So I just met Rasha Hanousi and half the
cabinet |
00:23:43.03
--> 00:23:45.19 |
and 60 MPs there for this dialogue, |
00:23:45.19
--> 00:23:48.14 |
mainly on this issue of about democratic
reform |
00:23:48.14
--> 00:23:51.06 |
and that they have a major role, |
00:23:52.20
--> 00:23:56.04 |
because if they go a bit too tough |
00:23:56.04
--> 00:23:58.01 |
on some of the Islamic issues, |
00:23:58.01
--> 00:24:02.13 |
then there will be greater concern about the
role of Islam. |
00:24:02.13
--> 00:24:06.17 |
Now, back to you, what's happening now the
latest? |
00:24:09.02
--> 00:24:12.08 |
- Right now I have
this US grand jury, |
00:24:12.08
--> 00:24:15.21 |
which has been investigating me for 18
months, |
00:24:15.21
--> 00:24:19.21 |
and it appears to have filed a secret
indictment |
00:24:20.19
--> 00:24:22.13 |
which it will use to try and extradite me |
00:24:22.13
--> 00:24:23.15 |
to the United States. |
00:24:23.15
--> 00:24:27.19 |
At the same time, I have a case in the
Supreme Court |
00:24:27.19
--> 00:24:29.01 |
here in Great Britain, |
00:24:29.01
--> 00:24:32.16 |
which used to be the House of Lords. |
00:24:32.16
--> 00:24:34.14 |
If I am not successful, |
00:24:35.10
--> 00:24:38.12 |
then I will be extradited to Sweden, |
00:24:38.12
--> 00:24:40.24 |
imprisoned immediately without charge, |
00:24:40.24
--> 00:24:45.10 |
I have not been charged ever in any country, |
00:24:45.10
--> 00:24:48.16 |
and then go through a sex trial or not, |
00:24:50.17
--> 00:24:52.04 |
maybe they will drop it, |
00:24:52.04
--> 00:24:55.06 |
but the refuse to come over here to
interview me, |
00:24:55.06
--> 00:24:56.15 |
to ask questions. |
00:24:56.15
--> 00:24:58.01 |
We offered to do this by phone, |
00:24:58.01
--> 00:25:00.01 |
to go to the Swedish embassy here, |
00:25:00.01
--> 00:25:01.15 |
they refused to do this. |
00:25:01.15
--> 00:25:04.21 |
Instead they demand
to extradite me |
00:25:04.21
--> 00:25:07.14 |
to ask questions without any charge. |
00:25:07.14
--> 00:25:10.13 |
And this is the situation I have been in now |
00:25:10.13
--> 00:25:12.13 |
under house arrest. |
00:25:12.13
--> 00:25:16.11 |
I had an electronic manacle around my leg |
00:25:16.11
--> 00:25:18.07 |
to record my location. |
00:25:19.10
--> 00:25:22.22 |
So it's a bit grim,
but on the other hand, |
00:25:24.24
--> 00:25:27.01 |
I do have a platform. |
00:25:27.01
--> 00:25:30.08 |
It does give me to a degree a platform. |
00:25:31.19
--> 00:25:35.12 |
And this process comes out of the
legislation |
00:25:36.18
--> 00:25:39.15 |
in Europe in response to 9/11, |
00:25:39.15
--> 00:25:41.23 |
so this particular
thing that I am entrapped under |
00:25:41.23
--> 00:25:45.14 |
came about as a result of European |
00:25:45.14
--> 00:25:47.16 |
police departments and governments saying |
00:25:47.16
--> 00:25:50.04 |
we must have a way to quickly take
terrorists |
00:25:50.04
--> 00:25:54.13 |
from one European country to another
European country. |
00:25:54.13
--> 00:25:58.17 |
- Now the same draconian laws are used in
other cases. |
00:25:58.17
--> 00:25:59.15 |
- Yeah. |
00:25:59.15
--> 00:26:01.07 |
- You must remember the rule of game, |
00:26:01.07
--> 00:26:03.15 |
enjoy yourself, be calm, relax. |
00:26:03.15
--> 00:26:07.02 |
You will be vindicated
and we'll meet you, |
00:26:08.02
--> 00:26:10.01 |
London or Kuala Lumpur. |
00:26:10.01
--> 00:26:11.01 |
(laughing) |
00:26:11.01
--> 00:26:13.16 |
(upbeat music) |