October 2002 – 10’00’’

Reporter: Evan Williams

Williams: Did you or your group have anything to do with the bombing in Bali?

Ba’asyir: No, indeed I condemn the bombing, and I’m sure this is nothing to do with Indonesians.

Williams: Who do you think was behind the bombing in Bali then, if it wasn’t you.... your group?

Ba’asyir: I’m certain that it was engineered by foreign intelligence, which means I deeply suspect Americans – my main reason being that it is justification by the Americans that Indonesia is the centre of terrorism, even though this never happened before in Indonesia. They engineered such a huge bomb blast in Bali, which is a very safe holiday place. They did it to prove that in Indonesia there are terrorists. This is to justify the issues being pushed by America and its cronies.

Williams: Why do you think you in particular, and your group, have been so targeted as the suspects? Our own Foreign Minister says the Jemaah Islamiah, which they say you are the leader of, is the main suspect.

Ba’asyir: Ask them. I don’t know. So give us the proof – don’t just accuse us. There has to be evidence.

Williams: Do you run the Jemaah Islamiah group?

Ba’asyir: No.

Williams: There are dozens of people – Muslim extremists - who have been arrested in South East Asia. All of them point to you as their leader. Why do these people say that you are their leader?

Ba’asyir: Please ask them... and please show me the proof, the evidence. But I refute the accusation again. I always suspect their accusations, because they hate Islam and the Muslims who want to uphold Islam. That’s why they engineered the lying.

Williams: But I must insist... I mean, people like Omar al-Faruq who name you in their evidence, say you are their leader. It’s not the Americans or any other government, it’s key people who have been detained for terrorism who say you are their leader.

Ba’asyir: The confession from Omar Faruq, who I don’t know at all, I also don’t believe. It was engineered by America. Until the Americans are brave enough to bring the person whose name is Omar Faruq to come to Indonesia to face me, I will believe this confession was made up by the Americans – because the Americans in this case are using systematic lying to attack Islam.

Williams V/O: While Abu Bakar Ba’asyir at first denied knowing the Islamic militants now in gaols across South East Asia, later in the interview he appears to change his mind, admitting that while in exile he taught many of them in Islamic studies including the concepts of Jihad – or Holy War.

Ba’asyir: Yes indeed I did teach jihad, because that’s the highest Islamic lesson. To defend Islam it’s an obligation. So maybe because they have money, some of them go to the Philippines, Chechnya or Bosnia if they can afford it. That’s their business. So I do teach jihad because it’s an Islamic lesson. I can’t hide it – but jihad according to Islamic law, not according to how people feel.

Williams: What is it you’re seeking in Indonesia... what are you fighting for?

Ba’asyir: Well, as a Muslim I’ve got the orders from Allah and the Prophet to implement all of the Islamic rules. The state must be regulated by Islamic rules 100 percent.

Williams: Do you preach violence as a way of achieving an Islamic state in Indonesia.

Ba’asyir: No, basically Islam always preaches peace. But if Islam is attacked we don’t have to be peaceful. If Islam is attacked we have to defend it and that’s what the non-Muslims twist to call violence. They think that if we’re attacked we should do nothing.

Williams: Three weeks ago the Australian Foreign Minister said you should be arrested. What’s your message to him?

Ba’asyir: My message to the Foreign Minister is to come here and bring the evidence. Don’t just accuse verbally like a child. Ask him to come here and bring the evidence and face me. And as a foreign minister, don’t be too emotional. Don’t be like a duck following America. He has to have his own position. So if he accuses me of involvement, please bring the proof because the accusation needs evidence. That’s the first point. The second is, my message to the foreign minister is that it would be better for him to become a Muslim so he can be safe in the hereafter.

Williams: Australia is a key ally of the United States, a very strong ally of the U.S. in the war on terror, and possibly the war in Iraq. You say that America is an enemy of Islam. Does that now mean that Australia is now also an enemy of Islam?

Ba’asyir: Yes... everybody who stands with America.... Australia has to ask - does America defend Islam, or is it against Islam? Now America is conducting war against Islam, whichever countries stand by America, directly or indirectly they are against Islam.

Williams: So if we join America in the war against Iraq, we are vulnerable to attack?

Ba’asyir: Tell your Prime Minister that’s a stupid thing to do. Supporting America in attacking Iraq is a stupid thing to do. Tell him that.

Williams: The world is looking at Bali – at the bombing – and saying it looks like it is an Islamic group tied to al-Qaeda. Are you tied to al-Qaeda? Do you have any links to al-Qaeda?

Ba’asyir: I don’t understand what al-Qaeda is. Al-Qaeda is a fictional organisation. It’s been blown up by America. I’d never heard of al-Qaeda before. I’ve only just heard of al-Qaeda. And about what happened in Bali, I’m convinced it was America, 100 percent. No others were involved. It is not possible that Muslims did that. It’s not possible that Muslim fighters did something as crazy as that. It’s useless. Why wouldn’t non-Muslims attack Islam if we kill them? We will kill them if they want to kill us. They are the ones we want to kill. It’s revenge – so it’s all from America.