Indonesia – Timber Mafia

November 2002 – 45 mins


In the worldwide timber racket, swathes of "protected" forests are being illegally cut and exported for use in building materials, furniture and sundry items like billiard cues and picture frames. Four Corners follows the timber trail from one of its main sources, Indonesia, where 70 per cent of all logging is thought to be illegal, to its ultimate destination in the West.

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Reporter: Stephen McDonell
Producer: Janine Cohen
Research: Sarah Curnow



STEPHEN McDONELL: There's a dirty trade going on worldwide, a rapacious and destructive business.

And those who question it do so at their own peril.

FAITH DOHERTY, ENVIRONMENTAL INVESTIGATION AGENCY: He was pretty injured.

He was bleeding very heavily from the head wound.

He had a black eye.

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': They say to me and Faith that, "We can kill you any time easily and we wouldn't have any problem."

STEPHEN McDONELL: Those asking sensitive questions have been brutally attacked.

Why are these people risking their lives?

And why are others trying to kill them?

The answer is stolen wood.

An organised international timber racket is booming, selling rare wood taken from national parks.

And the trade is threatening not only the habitat of endangered animals, but also those who would protect them.

PROFESSOR BIRUTE GALDIKAS, PRESIDENT, ORANGUTAN FOUNDATION INTERNATIONAL: It's too difficult and too painful.

All I know is I was told to leave in a very brutal way.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Tonight, Four Corners follows the path of international timber smuggling.

We've found kidnapping, bribery and attempted murder are carried out just to bring cheaper products to a hardware store near you.

Faith Doherty works for an organisation called the Environmental Investigation Agency or EIA.

The London-based green group sends members undercover and collects information on environmental crime using covert methods.

Secret filming, front companies and fake business inquiries are the EIA's stock in trade.

It's a dangerous business and one that saw Doherty and a colleague kidnapped and beaten in Indonesia while investigating illegal logging.

Faith Doherty returned with Four Corners to the Indonesian province of Kalimantan where she was abducted two years ago.

We wanted to track the stolen wood from Indonesia's forests to unknowing consumers and find out if her abductors are still running the timber racket.

FAITH DOHERTY: It's very easy to pay off the police, to pay off people within the forestry department, to pay off politicians, anybody.

And in some cases, it's not the fault of those who are lower down, if you like, in the ranks in terms of forestry officials or whatever.

They're paid very little money.

There's no incentive for them to enforce the law.

There's no reason for them to stay honest.

They get more money if somebody's going to pay them a monthly stipend or a one-off pay-off in order to just close your eyes and not take any notice.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Illegal loggers cut down timber without government permission.

Often, the wood is simply stolen from national parks.

This is highly organised crime.

The European Union is reported to import US$1.5 billion in stolen tropical timber every year.

Then you add China, Japan, the United States and Australia also buying illegal wood.

In Indonesia, illegal logging is out of control.

The government estimates 70 per cent of all the country's logging is illegal -- around 50 million cubic metres of timber every year.

FAITH DOHERTY: You've got freshly cut timber.

The guy who's running the raft said there's about 900 logs.

You can see by the size of them that they've obviously cut them quite in the interior.

And what they're doing is because there's been a lot of rain, this is a really good time for them to transport these logs downriver to the sawmill.

Now, what's going to happen is that this timber is going to be sold at a very cheap price because it's illegal.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Some of this timber can be quickly identified as illegal by its type.

The Indonesian Government, in a desperate bid to save some of its endangered trees, registered ramin as an internationally protected species.

As a result, this most valuable of Indonesia's trees is smuggled out of the country.

Still frustrated that illegal logging is continuing, the government has now banned the export of whole logs, whatever the type.

FAITH DOHERTY: This makes me very angry because all of this is banned.

And this is the stuff that's going to end up in the markets in Europe as futons and picture frames and snooker cues and whatever.

So this is where it's coming from.

And once again, it's being sold cheap instead of the valuable timber that it is.

And, uh -- this is really disgusting.

And this log raft, it's just going on and on and on.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Indonesia has 10 per cent of the world's remaining tropical forests.

They're teeming with unique wildlife and the highest diversity of trees and vines anywhere in the world.

DR MARK LEIGHTON: Indonesia is the repository of the most important biodiversity of the Asian rainforest block.

Some of the highlights of this biodiversity are hundreds of mammals and bird species that live in these various islands of Indonesia, often -- often only on a single one of these islands or a single part of it.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Harvard University scientist Dr Mark Leighton works in the national parks of Kalimantan.

He says apart from threatening the country's rich eco-diversity, illegal logging in Indonesia may have consequences for the whole world, including drought in Australia.

DR MARK LEIGHTON: We've known for a long time that the so-called El Nino events are critically determined in Indonesia.

They -- depending on the development of a low-pressure area in Indonesia, then we get the warming up of the Pacific and all the worldwide atmospheric changes, disruptions of rainfall, weird droughts and rainfall patterns in different parts of the world.

Well, we have to believe that deforestation, then, influences strongly by then influencing temperature and precipitation relationships in this large area in South-East Asia.

STEPHEN McDONELL: To understand how hundreds of timber barons threaten Indonesia's and much of the world's forests, we've looked at one criminal boss.

We spoke to those who have had first-hand experience with his organisation.

Faith Doherty took some convincing to go back with us to Kalimantan, and not without good reason.

When she began investigating the illegal timber trade here, she crossed this powerful timber baron who has become a member of parliament.

FAITH DOHERTY: He's a very clever, cunning, corrupt, violent politician.

STEPHEN McDONELL: The man she's talking about virtually runs the town of Pangkalan Bun.

His name is Abdul Rasyid and his family company has a huge logging operation, conveniently located next to the Tanjung Puting National Park.

He's thought to take 600,000 cubic metres of timber from the park each month.

This is how local timber workers live in Central Kalimantan, seeing little of the benefits from their illegal logging.

And this is how timber boss Abdul Rasyid lives in his house in Pangkalan Bun.

Some say he's untouchable.

DR MOHAMMAD PRAKOSA, INDONESIAN FORESTRY MINISTER: It's the mafia.

Timber mafia, I think.

I think timber mafia, I think is the problem so that our job now is to combat this -- this, to control this mafia and maybe to just dismantle all of the network of this illegal activity networking.

STEPHEN McDONELL: And one name makes people nervous.

Who is Abdul Rasyid?

DR MOHAMMAD PRAKOSA: I heard about this guy, but I don't know him.

STEPHEN McDONELL: You -- you don't know him at all?

DR MOHAMMAD PRAKOSA: No, I don't know him at all.

I heard about him.

LUSMAN PASARIBU, TANJUNG PUTING NATIONAL PARK (TRANSLATION): I don't know much about Abdul Rasyid, only that people talk about him.

But his name has a big influence, his prominence as a community figurehead.

TRANSLATOR: In a positive or negative way?

LUSMAN PASARIBU (TRANSLATION): I think in a positive way.

I've heard he helps people a lot.

Many people who ask for help or support get it.

And he helps families.

I know this.

DR MOHAMMAD PRAKOSA: If we say that somebody is doing something wrong, this must be somehow proven.

So I don't want to comment on that for the -- for the --

STEPHEN McDONELL: What, you don't think there's proof that Abdul Rasyid has been involved in illegal logging?

DR MOHAMMAD PRAKOSA: I think I'll let the court do this because I don't want to --

Again, this -- my position is not in the judicial process.

I think we'll let the law-enforcement agencies do -- do their job.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Timber is behind just about every job in Central Kalimantan.

Since Rasyid and his family control at least 60 per cent of stolen wood in the area, this gives the logging baron enormous power.

Under Suharto's dictatorship, logging was controlled from Jakarta.

When the regime collapsed, power was decentralised, leaving local officials in charge and more open to bribery.

ROD TAYLOR, WORLDWIDE FUND FOR NATURE: A lot of people in the remote parts of Indonesia are suddenly out from under the control of Jakarta and they are taking what they can out of the forest.

And this is a whole range of people, from small villages to local entrepreneurs to big companies.

PROFESSOR BIRUTE GALDIKAS: For many years, they were prohibited from extracting resources in their own communities or in their own areas.

Now, they're taking whatever they can get as quickly as possible before somebody stops them.

STEPHEN McDONELL: This research station in Tanjung Puting National Park was trashed by illegal loggers.

Attacks like this show the audacity of the timber mafia towards the national government.

National parks are still controlled from Jakarta, but any government attempts to stop illegal logging in the reserves are met with violence.

LUSMAN PASARIBU (TRANSLATION): Our staff are often threatened and are often beaten by community members.

We have experienced intimidation and even damage of our office and has still been happening until now.

Last May, I experienced actions of the community which, in my view, were extremely anarchic.

The community destroyed a roadblock built by the government to obstruct a timber route out of the forest and burnt down a post also built by the government.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Faith Doherty learned first-hand of the violence of illegal loggers when she was kidnapped travelling with an Indonesian colleague.

Ambrosius Ruwindrijarto, known as Ruwi, is from the EIA's Indonesian sister organisation Telapak.

He would travel with Doherty to Abdul Rasyid's home town.

Ruwi had earlier been undercover, posing as a consultant for Western businessmen.

He'd visited the company Tanjung Lingga, in which Abdul Rasyid is the majority shareholder.

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': The company manager of Tanjung Lingga said that they operates on illegal supply.

And that's the exact words is that, "If you want to do business, you can do illegal business, you can do legal.

If you do illegal business, you'll have these figures of profit.

If you do legal, you'll have only these figures of profit."

Something like that.

And so the manager offered us to do illegal business because that's what they operate on.

STEPHEN McDONELL: So there's no doubt the manager of Tanjung Lingga offered to do illegal business with you?

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': Yeah, the manager offered to do illegal business with us.

STEPHEN McDONELL: 12 months later, Ruwi returned with Doherty to Pangkalan Bun, the town which Abdul Rasyid is said to run like his personal fiefdom.

FAITH DOHERTY: Pangkalan Bun is wild, wild west.

The rule of law is what Abdul Rasyid wants and his company and his associates and those who are also in business in the illegal logging trade there.

He's not the only one, but he is the baron.

It's a place where we ourselves have visited and seen his factories that process and manufacture furniture from the timber that he has stolen from the national park.

And I mean, we're not talking a little thing here.

We're talking massive great big aircraft hangar-sized warehouses full of stolen timber.

STEPHEN McDONELL: After tracking stolen timber from the national park to Abdul Rasyid's sawmill and filming his operation, they decided to confront him head on.

At his warehouse, the activists asked to meet Rasyid face to face.

FAITH DOHERTY: I mean, dialogue is always good.

And so that's why we wanted to talk to him.

It's like, "OK, you know, if you want us to back off, let's talk."

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': I and Faith, we thought that we need to confront this guy so we know how he reacts.

FAITH DOHERTY: We got back to the hotel and there was a phone call immediately in the room to say that Abdul Rasyid wanted to see us and that he had sent a car.

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': I felt like tension is building.

It's like I can't hear too much noises.

It's like going down a -- a hallway.

STEPHEN McDONELL: When they were brought to this building belonging to Abdul Rasyid, there was no Rasyid, just a room full of angry company executives and bodyguards.

Several of Rasyid's relatives were there, including one named Sugianto.

He was the same manager Ruwi had spoken to when he was undercover.

FAITH DOHERTY: One minute, Sugianto is yelling at Ruwi and the next minute, he smashed his fist into his face and is pummelling him and Ruwi had fallen back onto the sofa.

Sugianto had thrown him.

He was smashing him in the face and he'd thrown him on the ground.

He was kicking him in the head and he was just beating him up.

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': I'm no good at self-defence at all, you know, so I just -- I just tried to cover my face, that's all.

My eyes and my face.

That's all I -- that's all I did.

FAITH DOHERTY: Head wounds bleed a lot.

He was bleeding very, very heavily and over the next hour, Ruwi sustained more punches, more kicks.

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': They said to me and Faith that, "We can kill you any time easily and we wouldn't have any problem."

The cousin, Sugianto the manager, said that, "I kill you, I go to jail for two years, nine years, OK.

But you'll be dead forever."

And then, he pulled the gun on -- on some table and so it --

That's -- that's -- that is one second that I -- that I -- that I felt that I could die.

FAITH DOHERTY: I was absolutely convinced at this point we'd had it and that this was it.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Then police were called in by the company and the pair were taken to the station accused of trespassing at the sawmill.

How did you feel about the police involvement?

What did that mean for the situation?

FAITH DOHERTY: I didn't know what to think.

I didn't know whether it was good or bad.

STEPHEN McDONELL: They were held for two nights inside the police station, ostensibly for their protection, while a mob of Abdul Rasyid's supporters gathered outside.

Faith Doherty recorded these events on her video camera.

FAITH DOHERTY: Outside here, there is a mob of thugs who belong to Tanjung Lingga.

And as I'm speaking to you, there are two men at the window looking in as well who are also part of the mob.

And across the street, the police are arming themselves with rifles and preparing, I hope, to take Ruwi and I to the airport so that we can get out of here.

STEPHEN McDONELL: The police offered to let Doherty go as long as she left Ruwi behind.

She refused.

Then after considerable pressure from British diplomats and Jakarta government officials, on the third day, they were allowed to leave.

An armed escort drove them out of town.

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': I remember when we travel from the police station to the airport, the -- the town is so empty, so quiet.

I didn't remember seeing any other car or people on the street.

STEPHEN McDONELL: When they arrived at the airport, their plane was surrounded by soldiers who were there to make sure it could take off without incident.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Neither campaigner can go back to Pangkalan Bun.

FAITH DOHERTY: We can go home -- which is not what a lot of Indonesians can do.

I'm lucky like that.

I can go home.

This is their home and they face these kinds of threats every day.

STEPHEN McDONELL: One such Indonesian is the independent journalist Abi Kusno.

He's from Pangkalan Bun and writes for his own small publication.

For years, he's been reporting on Abdul Rasyid's illegal logging operation.

Who is the mastermind of illegal logging around Pangkalan Bun?

ABI KUSNO: Haji Abdul Rasyid, the owner of Tanjung Lingga Group.

TRANSLATOR: How can you be so sure that it is Abdul Rasyid?

ABI KUSNO: It is clear that the activities Abdul Rasyid has engaged in until now have been improper.

Even small children know this, that the ship loadings are the work of Abdul Rasyid.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Abi Kusno found these three huge shipments of Rasyid's stolen timber, bound for China.

As well as reporting this, he informed the National Forestry Department.

Unable to rely on corrupt police, Forestry brought in the navy, and the ships were seized.

A few weeks later, Abi Kusno arrived back in his home town of Pangkalan Bun, and was riding to his house on the back of a motorbike.

ABI KUSNO: One kilometre from the airport, we were blocked by 20 people, complete with weapons, in the middle of a main road.

Our motorcycle was cornered and fell.

Then I fell, and then they began to strike me with machetes.

My back was wounded with 17 gashes -- each gash being 20cm long and 4cm deep, and 209 stitches in all.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Why did the crowd leave you there?

ABI KUSNO: Because they thought I was dead.

I almost was taken to the morgue.

I was on my way to the morgue, because it was thought I had died.

But I was still conscious, but I couldn't speak.

I wiggled my foot, which was seen by a nurse who exclaimed, "He's still alive, he's still alive!"

I was wounded here -- and here -- and one centimetre of my ear was left.

This hand was chopped off completely and permanently.

Here this bone cleanly snapped, both of them snapped.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Are you afraid of Abdul Rasyid?

ABI KUSNO: No.

When I am asked, "Am I afraid?", I reply no.

I only fear God.

Even though my condition is like this, I still am determined to fight against illegal logging.

STEPHEN McDONELL: We requested an interview with Abdul Rasyid, but he was not available.

Nor was anybody else from his family's business operations.

Professor Birute Galdikas also confronted illegal loggers, and was kidnapped.

PROFESSOR BIRUTE GALDIKAS: It -- it's too -- it's too difficult and too painful.

I mean, I just prefer not to think about it.

I get too emotional.

But basically, it -- it was -- they were making it very clear that they did not want any opposition.

STEPHEN McDONELL: And you obviously ignored that?

PROFESSOR BIRUTE GALDIKAS: Well, I didn't ignore it, but I didn't leave.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Professor Galdikas lives and works in Tanjung Puting National Park.

She studied under the same professor as Dian Fossey, who worked with gorillas.

Professor Galdikas set up this sanctuary for orangutans, because so many have been displaced.

PROFESSOR BIRUTE GALDIKAS: The net effect of this massive illegal logging in national parks and other protected areas is there is absolutely no place for wildlife to be safe.

There's absolutely no sanctuary for orangutans as a species.

There's no place they can run to.

There's no place they can hide, because the forests are all disappearing.

Orangutans really are our cousins.

Orangutans share approximately 97.5 per cent of their genetic material with humans, and in their emotions and their perceptions and their feelings, even in their cognitive abilities, they're very much like humans.

I think it would be a much lonelier place if orangutans disappeared from this planet.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Professor Galdikas runs a base inside the National Park and illegal loggers are regularly threatening to destroy it.

Her staff has had to defend the outpost -- armed with their own machetes.

PROFESSOR BIRUTE GALDIKAS: The illegal loggers are organised, you know, by middle people and by tycoons, but they are the local community.

And this is why the fact that we employ 200 people from the local community is so important.

If we didn't employ those people, those people would probably all, or most of them, be logging illegally as well, instead of being a force for conservation.

So, it depends on the direction that Indonesia goes.

You know, if there's more social and economic justice, maybe the forests will be saved.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Some environmentalists want selective legal logging to continue, saying while the forest is economically valuable, it will remain.

In Indonesia, deforestation also leads to massive clearance fires.

This was once tropical rainforest.

It was logged out, then deliberately burnt -- cleared for another use.

Indonesia is just one country illegally logging.

In Brazil, 80 per cent of all logging is said to be illegal.

Then there's the Russian Far East, Cambodia and the Philippines.

African illegal logging is also rampant, with countries like Cameroon supplying large volumes of stolen and smuggled wood.

DUNCAN BRACK, THE ROYAL INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS: The World Bank estimates that the value of timber in international trade that's been cut illegally is maybe somewhere around the order of $10 billion to $15 billion a year.

So, that's a pretty high proportion of the trade.

ROD TAYLOR: The volume of wood coming out of these -- some of the countries, more than half of it is said to be illegal.

It's very difficult to get figures though because, by the nature of it, it's an underground business.

But if you compare the export statistics from some countries with the import statistics to major markets, usually there's a large discrepancy which can only be accounted for by wood that's been smuggled out of those countries.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Supplier countries only export illegal timber because there's a demand for it.

In the end, much of the wood from this destructive and at times violent trade ends up in nothing more than plywood for building sites -- used in form work, then thrown away.

Australian building unions are now moving for a green ban on Indonesian plywood.

AUSTRALIAN BUILDER: They're knocking down the rainforests and the timber is being used in form ply.

Now, that represents vandalism to cut down a rainforest to use it for a timber that's going to be used three, four, five times and then end up at the tip.

STEPHEN McDONELL: It arrives via a circuitous route and can be hard to track, but stolen timber makes its way to Australia, China and Japan every day.

Then there's the massive European market.

10 million cubic metres of tropical timber arrive in the EU every year -- almost half coming from Indonesia, Brazil and Cameroon.

One fifth of the EU's illegal tropical timber goes to the UK alone.

MARIO COLOMBO: This is, er, typical stock blinds made of ramin.

Ramin wood has been one of the most used substrates in the manufacturing of these blinds because of its technical properties.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Mario Colombo buys wood for Hunter Douglas, the world's biggest supplier of wooden blinds.

Only some of his blinds are made from ramin, the timber the Indonesian government has banned from export.

Though Indonesia is not the only country with ramin, he knows his Chinese suppliers do get their wood from South-East Asia.

How do you feel about the fact that, over the years, probably quite a significant proportion of the wood in your products has been stolen?

MARIO COLOMBO: If it is true, I don't feel good, like you wouldn't feel good either if something on a similar occasion would happen to you.

I think we could only feel sorry, but the fact that it was stolen -- it is difficult for us to have a proof of it.

Was it stolen really or not?

MICHAEL MEACHER, UK ENVIRONMENT MINISTER: I suspect people in the trade probably had a pretty good idea, but it is asking, I think, a lot in any trade to expect people suddenly to become moral or environmental or to take on a whole different set of values unless you put the incentives or the regulations or the pressures in place.

STEPHEN McDONELL: At the moment, the economic incentives are just not there.

Hunter Douglas is phasing out its ramin blinds, and has introduced a new environmentally-friendly range meeting tough eco-standards.

The catch is, the ecologically-sustainable blinds cost more and sales are not good, while their competitors can carry on as normal.

Why hasn't your government, for example, passed a law saying it's illegal to bring stolen timber into this country or wood products?

MICHAEL MEACHER: Well, I think if we had tried to -- what has happened over the last year or two does show the difficulty -- you don't pass laws unless you are quite sure that they can be implemented.

I mean, it's easy to write down rules for people.

It's quite another thing to ensure that they're enforceable, that we have the mechanisms which are going to make them effective.

Now, it turns out, of course, that that is very difficult.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Though Britain has signed a high-level agreement with Indonesia to try and stop illegal wood imports, it's proving embarrassingly difficult to police the trade.

Earlier this year, Greenpeace caught the British government using wood from illegal logging stronghold Cameroon in cabinet office renovations.

The government had promised that all of its procurements would be from legal and sustainable sources.

MICHAEL MEACHER, The government is, of course, caught symbolically in trying to introduce a policy which it itself, it appears in this one case, was not carrying through -- even though we were doing our best to -- to achieve that purpose, but it wasn't working.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Suppliers can plead ignorance about their wood because lines of trade are complicated.

Smuggled timber gets mixed up with legal timber.

We found this wood being loaded onto Indonesian ships off the coast from Tanjung Puting National Park.

The ship's captain claimed he wasn't loading stolen product.

However, 70 per cent of Indonesia's timber trade is illegal.

It's also easy to transform stolen wood into legal wood.

Kalimantan shares long and isolated borders with Malaysia.

The crucial transaction is when Malaysian companies buy stolen Indonesian wood, give it Malaysian papers and on-sell it as if it was theirs.

FAITH DOHERTY: Malaysia launders illegal logs from Indonesia.

They legalise it in Malaysia and they sell it as Malaysian timber.

ROD TAYLOR: So that wood that can be brought in from Indonesia supplements the Malaysian wood supply and the Malaysians have run out of wood themselves basically because they've logged too much in the past.

STEPHEN McDONELL: This is one of the Malaysian ports where illegal Indonesian timber is said to be laundered.

The Indonesian vessels pull up at the yard behind me.

The timber's unloaded and when the wood leaves here it's said to be certified as Malaysian.

Indonesian ships are visible here unloading timber.

Again, it's hard to tell by looking at it if the cut wood is the prohibited species ramin.

But the EIA claims it's seen ramin unloaded here from Indonesian ships.

Any whole logs from Indonesia would be illegal, so some Malaysian companies use a loophole and import hewn timber.

This facility is run by the Harwood Company.

It's a subsidiary of Malaysia's Government-owned timber company called the Sarawak Timber Industry Development Corporation.

We went to visit the Corporation to ask about its alleged role in laundering illegal timber.

We were promised an interview with the general manager, but when we arrived he wasn't there and nobody would be interviewed.

We recorded this conversation -- denying we were filming -- to try and get some answers from the government company.

MALAYSIAN MAN: We don't import logs from Indonesia.

STEPHEN McDONELL: You don't import logs from Indonesia at all?

MALAYSIAN MAN: Yes.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Not through the Harwood Company?

MALAYSIAN MAN: Not -- is not log.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Oh -- logs.

But you do import timber, though?

Is that right?

MALAYSIAN MAN: It's hewn timber.

Hewn timber.

Log is --

Is not log.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Sure, but, you know, it's said that the timber -- the cut timber which is imported by your company from Indonesia, that some of it is illegal.

Environmentalists say some of the timber that you import is illegal Indonesian timber.

Can you tell us if it is?

MALAYSIAN MAN: No, whether it's legal or illegal is not for me to answer.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Conservationists have said that Malaysia has already logged out a considerable amount of its own ramin, so it needs to buy stolen ramin from Indonesia for export.

Is this true?

THAM SING KHOW, MALAYSIAN TIMBER COUNCIL: No, I don't think so.

We still have ramin to export, though that is pretty much controlled now.

But I don't think the focus should be just on ramin, you know.

STEPHEN McDONELL: But is it true, though, that it's known in the timber industry that Malaysia sells far more ramin than it could ever take from its own existing forests?

THAM SING KHOW: Well, I don't have the statistics with me to, to, to show that, so --

STEPHEN McDONELL: But do you think that would be true?

THAM SING KHOW: Without looking at the statistics I can't really say so, but I don't think so.

I don't think so.

STEPHEN McDONELL: The Malaysian Timber Council was unable to give us the statistics on this, but environmentalists estimate Malaysia exports more than double its harvest capacity.

Yet there is some change in Malaysia.

Last month, the Government banned the importation of all Indonesian logs after a request from Jakarta.

DUNCAN BRACK: I think Malaysia is increasingly going to see itself isolated in, er, in being hostile or reluctant to seeing international initiatives against illegal logging.

STEPHEN McDONELL: And in consumer countries there's increased scrutiny of importers.

STEPHEN McDONELL: John Pickford brings plywood into Britain from Indonesia, Malaysia and Brazil.

He gets all the right paperwork, but says he does not know exactly where his wood comes from.

If you can't be sure where your wood comes from --

JOHN PICKFORD: Mmm.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Is it possible that you're buying plywood that's illegal?

JOHN PICKFORD: Yes.

STEPHEN McDONELL: And do you think that's the same for all British companies?

JOHN PICKFORD: Yes.

STEPHEN McDONELL: I mean, would it be even, um, too strong to say that this has long been an open secret in the industry, that everybody knows that illegal timber is being made into wood products for sale here?

JOHN PICKFORD: Yes.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Can you explain why that is, that it's never come out, I suppose, in the general public -- why people don't know about that?

JOHN PICKFORD: I suppose it's like a lot of things -- while nobody wants to know about it or do anything about it, it happens -- as simple as that.

And it's not until somebody actually starts to investigate and decide that what's going on is doing irreparable harm that things start to change.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Greenpeace targeted John Pickford's company 18 months ago, when they boarded one of his shipments carrying Brazilian plywood.

His cargo was certified by the Brazilian government body, IBAMA. Greenpeace claimed it was illegal.

JOHN PICKFORD: They sprayed the whole cargo with red paint, with words like "from non-sustainable forests" and "destroyers of the rainforest".

STEPHEN McDONELL: And do you think that that was justified?

JOHN PICKFORD: Er, it probably was justified because the people in Brazil, IBAMA, who authorised the cargo to come out in the first place, um, it --

Some weeks later, a lot of the personnel were sacked or arrested for filling in fraudulent documents.

So yes, it certainly was.

STEPHEN McDONELL: So, is this right, you're saying that a bunch of environmentalists who destroyed a cargo of yours were justified in doing it because the timber really was --

JOHN PICKFORD: No, they weren't justified in doing it, as far as I was concerned, because it was my money that paid for the cargo.

But from the point of view that it was from illegal sources, yes, I believe they were justified in doing so.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Meanwhile, in Indonesia, the internal battle goes on.

Thousands of illegal shipments have been getting through.

Just before he was attacked, journalist Abri Kusno told the Forestry Department about these three shipments.

The Indonesian navy then intercepted them.

Four Corners spoke to one of the captains who was afraid to be interviewed on camera.

He named one of Abdul Rasyid's companies as agent for the shipment and said he was only halfway through loading when the ship was seized off Pangkalan Bun.

After holding the crew for seven months, the Indonesian Police didn't charge anyone, have now released the ships and auctioned the timber, frustrating the best efforts of the Forestry Minister.

Do you think there was enough evidence, in the case of those three ships, to prosecute anyone?

DR MOHAMMAD PRAKOSA: Oh, I think I'll let the law enforcement institutions decide that because, again, my position is beyond this chain of law enforcement processes.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Do you trust the law enforcement officers to do the right thing in that case?

DR MOHAMMAD PRAKOSA, I think we have to trust them.

I think we have to trust them.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Indonesia's timber barons still operate largely unchecked.

Certainly Abdul Rasyid has never been prosecuted for illegal logging.

Two years after the environmentalists were kidnapped and beaten, nobody has been charged for this either.

Nor has anyone been charged over the attempted murder of Indonesian journalist Abi Kusno, despite many eyewitnesses.

Are you satisfied with the police investigation into your attack?

ABI KUSNO (TRANSLATION): No -- no -- no --

I'm not at all satisfied.

It must be known that the police don't have the guts to stand up to the Rasyid Group.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Almost half the world's rainforests are gone and those in Kalimantan could be destroyed in the next eight years.

But, for the moment, there's still enough wood for the timber looters to steal and ship across the globe.

While environmentalists, scientists and some brave government officials are challenging the timber mafia, they're under no illusion as to the enormity of the task ahead.

FAITH DOHERTY: It's never too late, ever, ever, ever.

And, yes, sometimes when we see destruction on a massive scale, it breaks my heart because you cannot replace it.

It's gone.

That's it -- finished.

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': We are trying to, to find a hope, some light.

STEPHEN McDONELL: Do you think that this is likely to happen?

AMBROSIUS RUWINDRIJARTO, 'RUWI': Hmm.

Well, we have to work hard to make it happen.

But the challenge is huge.

The challenge is huge, yeah.