RWANDA: JUSTICE
Women and young girls singing SingingByrne: Everywhere you go in Rwanda, there is music. Round the bend of one of its famous hills an impromptu village concert. 00:00
Singing
Church ruins Byrne: Closer to the scenes of tragedy, a church bulldozed during the months of madness and in the background, a choir.Singing 00:32
Interahamwe singing and dancing Byrne: And -- most unexpected of all the dancing killers. These grinning men and women are all members of the Hutu militia, the Interahamwe, which slaughtered a million innocents then ran away to hide in the jungles of the Congo.Now, in an extraordinary, youd think impossible experiment in reconciliation - they have returned to Rwanda to live side by side with their victims. 00:48
Juliette Juliette: I want people to know that weve tried to forget and that were ready to forgive. We cant like the people whove hurt us but weve tried to forget and were ready to pardon if people ask for forgiveness. 01:23
Church ruins/Cemetery Byrne: In the heart of Africa, this tiny land-locked country, famed for its gorillas and a genocide, has chosen to face its own nightmare and find its own answers. 01:47
Archival of massacre Music 02:05
Byrne: These few images are reminder enough of what happened in Rwanda between April and June 1994. The world knew, but turned away. The man who led the Tutsi rebel army, now Rwandas President Paul Kagame, has not forgiven nor reconciled himself to that.
Kagame Kagame: They knew it was going to happen. They let it happen. Even when it was happening, they ran away from it. Even after it happened they did not come to tangibly help Rwanda deal with the aftermath. So what moral basis do they have?Music 02:38
Kigali market Byrne: Rwanda today is not the dismal, depressing place youd imagine. Its still crowded the continents most densely populated country. Its still poor. But the eyes are not haunted so much as curious, and when we started climbing one of the countrys famous thousand hills, we took company. 03:09
Celestine on hilltop Byrne: Wed come to meet Celestine, now 27, still a teenager when he signed up to the Interahamwe. How, and why? Because like most Hutus, he claims he was just following orders. 03:38
Celestine Celestine: We were told the Tutsi were evil they used the Hutu like wheelbarrows. They said if a Tutsi killed you he first gouged out your eyes. They didnt see Hutus as human beings but as beasts of burden. 03:54
View of road from vehicle/famers Byrne: Traditionally, Rwandas Tutsis were patricians and cattle herders. The Hutus, farmers who tilled the soil. A feudal arrangement which the colonial rulers cultivated, and inflamed. At the time of the genocide, Hutu Power was the cry, and poisonous broadcasts like these filled the airwaves. 04:20
Sun/sky Radio Broadcast: The reason that we will exterminate them is because they belong to one ethnic group. Come let us rejoice, the cockroach has been exterminated. 04:46
Byrne walks with Celestine Byrne: Everyone in this village knows Celestines past. Their relatives are perhaps among his victims. But todays government has issued a new order to reconcile. And Rwandans are obedient people. 05:03
Celestine: Before I was a fighter, I was a farmer. I think now I can resume a normal life here. Byrne: Have you no memory? Do you think you can forget everything that has happened here?Celestine: I regret one thing tThat I wasted my life. 05:19
Byrne: For his remorse, Celestine may escape punishment for his crimes. 05:36
Kibuye prisoners But these men in pink will not. It is the uniform worn by Rwandas prisoners the colour an intentional humiliation, and what you see inside Kibuye prison is just a fraction of the 120,000 Rwandan Hutus who cram the jails and clog the courts, awaiting the best justice a small, poor country can offer. 05:44
Prisoner Prisoner: I killed a child. I did it alone. 06:12
Kibuye prisoners Byrne: The Government is trying to speed the process by giving those who do admit to the crimes of the genocide shorter sentences, even early release. Yet few come forward. 06:21
Prosecutor Prosecutor: Whos confessed? Only 600 of 3000.
Byrne: They try hard. Here is Kibuye Districts Chief Prosecutor drumming up confessions, working the crowd like a game show host. 06:38
Byrne: His boss promises those who do admit guilt theyll have special medical attention. Even two hour visits with their wives. 06:55
And they wont be watching the paint dry, he says. Repent and be saved.
But the truth is, Rwandas justice system is drowning in a sea of pink. It will take the national courts 200 years to get through the cases, and they are not even the worst. 07:15
Aerial from plane Music Byrne: The masterminds of the genocide, those charged with crimes against humanity, must face the international courts. But here too justice is a long time coming, and very, very far away.Music 07:31
Byrne: You must fly across the Serengeti, over Kilimanjaro, until you reach the small Tanzanian city of Arusha, home to the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. Like its cousin at the Hague, the tribunal is run by the United Nations. 07:57
Seromba inside tribunal Seromba: I am Father Seromba Athanese. 08:17
Byrne: Here are the faces behind the horror many men of the cloth like Father Athanese Seromba, charged with bulldozing that church his own church with hundreds of his own Tutsi congregation inside.
Judge Pillay Judge Pillay: How do you plead to count one, genocide? Seromba: I plead not guilty. 08:35
Fleming in tribunal Byrne: Among the courts dozens of prosecutors is QC Ken Fleming. Fleming: the court should take the opportunity to be creative. 08:44
FlemingSuper: Ken Fleming QC Prosecutor Byrne: Do you think people are just really mind boggled by the scope and the horror of the crimes committed?Fleming: Im sure thats the case, and in fact its very difficult even working here as long as I have to get your mind around the immensity of it. Byrne: Youve been here getting on for three years, do you understand yet why it happened?Fleming: No. Byrne: Does anyone?Fleming: I dont think so 08:51
Judge Pillay Pillay [bangs gavel]: Court is in session, Mr Fleming? 09:14
Byrne: Ken Flemings current case is against the former Information Minister, Eliezer Niyitegeka, who not only sanctioned those murderous broadcasts, but is accused of killing Tutsis himself.
Niyitegeka in tribunal/Fleming Fleming: He spent time out there during the genocide, we allege, involved in the leadership of a number of massacres, particularly in the Bisesero Hills. 09:33
Music
Bisesero Hills/Photos Byrne: The Bisesero Hills hold a special place in Rwandas dark story where some 50,000 Tutsis whod fled massacres elsewhere in the country gathered to make a desperate last stand. Just 700 or so survived. 09:54
Fleming: But groups of soldiers, Interahamwe -- these are the allegations -- came and shot people. It was though it was a turkey shoot. They were fighting against people who were trying to arm themselves with rocks or with branches or whatever they could find.
Fleming Many of them had massive wounds, many of the women had been sexually abused in ways you cant begin to understand. 10:34
Hospital complex Singing Byrne: Some of those who fled to Bisisero came from here, the Seventh Day Adventist church and hospital complex at Mungonero, in western Rwanda. It is a landmark case in establishing just how deeply senior church figures were involved in the genocide. 10:44
Samuel makes bed Byrne: Samuel was a hospital orderly, who buried himself beneath a pile of bodies, and survived. Nine of his family did not. 11:19
Samuel: We fled here because it was a church hospital, managed by the son of the pastor. Those who run the hospital are Christian and we told ourselves that Christians werent meant to kill one another. Byrne: How could a man of God behave like this?Samuel: We didnt understand either. 11:29
Byrne: It was Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana who ran the Mugenero complex and now denies all at Arusha. 12:09
Byrne walks with Samuel Byrne: Yet Samuel insists he saw his Pastor block the path of fleeing Tutsis. He saw this man of God shoot his own flock . 12:20
Samuel Samuel: I saw him kill. Hes a killer. Hes able to plead not guilty in front of other people but he wont plead not guilty before God. 12:30
Nyitigeka in tribunal Byrne: And Nyitigeka? In the Bisisero Hills, Samuel claims, he saw them both -- the Information Minister, and the Pastor, carrying guns. 12:49
Samuel: Niyitegeka I saw as well. I saw him on four occasions there. I know that he shot a child in the hip. The child fell very close to where I was. 13:05
Samuel walks with Byne to grave Byrne: Samuel is an eye witness. He knows where the bodies are buried including, in the mass grave beneath this grass, that of his older brother. Yet he has not been called to Arusha. 13:24
Edit suite/tribunal Byrne: As for the results: the Arusha Tribunal has, to date, achieved a grand total of eight -- repeat eight -- convictions. 13:42
Kagame Kagame: Its not enough, and especially when you look at the resources used thats millions, tens of millions of U.S. dollars, just for eight. 13:54
Judge Pillay Pillay: They asked for the tribunal, they should assist us in seeing that we perform our work. 14:07
Byrne: Judge Navanathem Pillay is the tribunals president, a South African human rights lawyer who insists that justice takes time.
Pillay: People tend to compare us to Nuremberg, 55 years ago, when they completed and executed a large number of people over a matter of ten months.Byrne: Wouldnt wash now, though, would it. Pillay: No, because of where we are. All the conventions, all the developments with regard to what we would accept as fair trial.Byrne: Do you feel the pressure, the time pressure?Pillay: I do, all the time, and the principal reason is that we have 29 people in our custody here in Arusha who have been awaiting trial for periods of 3 to 5 years 14:23
Fleming in tribunal on camera Fleming: We want there to be a tangible record so that 15:03
Byrne: Politics, too, creates problems. Under Judge Pillay, the tribunal has extended its brief from genocide crimes to human rights abuses committed by the Tutsi rebels under Kagames leadership. Relations are now so sour, the Government is sending witness planes back to Arusha empty . And the tribunal warns the whole process may soon grind to a halt.
PillaySuper: Judge Navanthem PillayInternational Criminal Tribunal Pillay: The Rwandan government has to anticipate that if they dont send the witnesses there will be no trials. 15:36
Resort complex Music
Byrne: It is the phrase of our times to move on. For nine million Rwandans, it is their dearest wish, and their best hope but how?Music Byrne: The just ones are all dead, this Rwandan song goes. Those left eye one another like ferocious leopards. With justice stalled, the killers unpunished, who now will judge Rwandas genocide? 16:10
Village Byrne: On hilltops around the country, theyre trying for a local solution. A bold experiment called gacaca meaning justice in the grass. 16:55
Gacaca court Gacaca is the old way of settling disputes. Judges known as the Upright Ones are elected in each village .. Rwanda has just sworn in 250,000 of them, from university professors to illiterate peasants. None are lawyers. The whole procedure is highly informal. 17:09
Anyone may air accusations against the prisoners, or anyone in the village. 17:43
Josephine accuses two men in the crowd of involvement in the murder of her husband and three young children. The facts are horribly familiar. 17:57
Josephine Josephine: They had machetes, clubs with nails, spears and swords. Byrne: Did you see them being killed?Josephine: When they slashed them I was afraid and stepped back but they actually killed one I was holding in my arms. 18:09
Gacaca court Byrne: Josephine, a Hutu, married a Tutsi neighbour, never thinking it would affect their children. It did they were targeted as sympathisers. 18:30
Josephine Byrne: What at ages 9, 7 and 5 they said they were sympathising with the rebels?Josephine: Simply because they were born of a Tutsi father, that was enough. They were too young to know what was Hutu or Tutsi. 18:41
Gacaca court Byrne: By international standards, gacaca offers rough justice. Judges themselves are sometimes accused -- you saw; you were there. The panels can imprison for life, or grant freedom all done at speed, with little paperwork and frequent interruptions.The countrys leaders know the risks but what are the alternatives? 19:02
Kagame Byrne: Is that what gacaca really is saying to the world -- Im not interested in your justice, this is what we call justice in Rwanda.Kagame: I think more than that, it is reminding Rwandans that you need to get down and resolve your problems. Nobody owes you a solution to your problems. These people dont care much for you. They dont care about what happens to you, as they didnt care during the genocide.Byrne: So when someone starts to lecture you on international standards of justice?Kagame: I cannot accept a lecture from any of these people. 19:31
Gacaca court Byrne: The purpose of these grassroots tribunals is partly to punish, partly to give villagers a chance to face those who wronged them so, ultimately, they can reconcile. Its still early days, but the signs are promising. 20:09
Silas Byrne: : When will you come out of jail?Silas: I dont know. Its the reason why we believe that gacaca will resolve this problem. We are waiting for gacaca. 20:26
Josephine Byrne: You would forgive them?Josephine: If they ask for pardon I can give them pardon. 20:40
Children dancing Music
Byrne: Rwandans are trying so hard to forgive each other, their pain both wide and deep. Some 60,000 of the countrys households have no parents these dancers are orphans of the genocide. Alone, but reaching out. 20:58
Kigali suburb Yet stories of resilience abound. This whole Kigali suburbs has hundreds of parentless families -- the older brothers and sisters, raising the young. Still, somehow, full of hope for the future. 21:21
Gustave, Byrne: Do you feel reconciled with the Hutus, can you forgive?Gustave: I dont go round singing about, it but we study together I have Hutu friends. Life goes on. Sometimes I remember what they did to us. Byrne: Juliette, youre the youngest sister. Sisters always fight with their brothers, So you fight with your brothers? Juliette: No, I love him very much. I cant do it. 21:38
Juliette,Gustave and Silvestre Byrne: Juliette and her brothers Gustave and Silvestre were wounded, but survived 1994, even as their parents were killed. Juliette: It was terrible, they were tracking us as if wed done something. But we were children, we only knew we were Tutsi but they said we were like serpents. 22:07
Children Music
Byrne: Its been said of Rwandas genocide that no one person killed any one person. They were all involved neighbours, pastors, parents, strangers. You can only hope that somewhere on the road between punishment and forgiveness Rwanda will find its own justice. And show the world something about how to come back from hell. 22:41
Juliette: Pardon is the best thing. Those who are dead cant come back, whether or not you pardon their killers. For me personally I have pardoned them. I pardon them for what they did to me and for killing my parents.Music 23:12
Silvestre Silvestre: I hope that genocide never, never again in Rwanda. Never, never, never, never again. Because it is enough. 23:34
RWANDAN JUSTICEReporter: Jennifer ByrneCamera: Ron FoleySound: Kate GrahamEditor: Garth ThomasResearch: Helen VesperiniProducer: Mick ODonnell
Women and young girls singing SingingByrne: Everywhere you go in Rwanda, there is music. Round the bend of one of its famous hills an impromptu village concert. 00:00
Singing
Church ruins Byrne: Closer to the scenes of tragedy, a church bulldozed during the months of madness and in the background, a choir.Singing 00:32
Interahamwe singing and dancing Byrne: And -- most unexpected of all the dancing killers. These grinning men and women are all members of the Hutu militia, the Interahamwe, which slaughtered a million innocents then ran away to hide in the jungles of the Congo.Now, in an extraordinary, youd think impossible experiment in reconciliation - they have returned to Rwanda to live side by side with their victims. 00:48
Juliette Juliette: I want people to know that weve tried to forget and that were ready to forgive. We cant like the people whove hurt us but weve tried to forget and were ready to pardon if people ask for forgiveness. 01:23
Church ruins/Cemetery Byrne: In the heart of Africa, this tiny land-locked country, famed for its gorillas and a genocide, has chosen to face its own nightmare and find its own answers. 01:47
Archival of massacre Music 02:05
Byrne: These few images are reminder enough of what happened in Rwanda between April and June 1994. The world knew, but turned away. The man who led the Tutsi rebel army, now Rwandas President Paul Kagame, has not forgiven nor reconciled himself to that.
Kagame Kagame: They knew it was going to happen. They let it happen. Even when it was happening, they ran away from it. Even after it happened they did not come to tangibly help Rwanda deal with the aftermath. So what moral basis do they have?Music 02:38
Kigali market Byrne: Rwanda today is not the dismal, depressing place youd imagine. Its still crowded the continents most densely populated country. Its still poor. But the eyes are not haunted so much as curious, and when we started climbing one of the countrys famous thousand hills, we took company. 03:09
Celestine on hilltop Byrne: Wed come to meet Celestine, now 27, still a teenager when he signed up to the Interahamwe. How, and why? Because like most Hutus, he claims he was just following orders. 03:38
Celestine Celestine: We were told the Tutsi were evil they used the Hutu like wheelbarrows. They said if a Tutsi killed you he first gouged out your eyes. They didnt see Hutus as human beings but as beasts of burden. 03:54
View of road from vehicle/famers Byrne: Traditionally, Rwandas Tutsis were patricians and cattle herders. The Hutus, farmers who tilled the soil. A feudal arrangement which the colonial rulers cultivated, and inflamed. At the time of the genocide, Hutu Power was the cry, and poisonous broadcasts like these filled the airwaves. 04:20
Sun/sky Radio Broadcast: The reason that we will exterminate them is because they belong to one ethnic group. Come let us rejoice, the cockroach has been exterminated. 04:46
Byrne walks with Celestine Byrne: Everyone in this village knows Celestines past. Their relatives are perhaps among his victims. But todays government has issued a new order to reconcile. And Rwandans are obedient people. 05:03
Celestine: Before I was a fighter, I was a farmer. I think now I can resume a normal life here. Byrne: Have you no memory? Do you think you can forget everything that has happened here?Celestine: I regret one thing tThat I wasted my life. 05:19
Byrne: For his remorse, Celestine may escape punishment for his crimes. 05:36
Kibuye prisoners But these men in pink will not. It is the uniform worn by Rwandas prisoners the colour an intentional humiliation, and what you see inside Kibuye prison is just a fraction of the 120,000 Rwandan Hutus who cram the jails and clog the courts, awaiting the best justice a small, poor country can offer. 05:44
Prisoner Prisoner: I killed a child. I did it alone. 06:12
Kibuye prisoners Byrne: The Government is trying to speed the process by giving those who do admit to the crimes of the genocide shorter sentences, even early release. Yet few come forward. 06:21
Prosecutor Prosecutor: Whos confessed? Only 600 of 3000.
Byrne: They try hard. Here is Kibuye Districts Chief Prosecutor drumming up confessions, working the crowd like a game show host. 06:38
Byrne: His boss promises those who do admit guilt theyll have special medical attention. Even two hour visits with their wives. 06:55
And they wont be watching the paint dry, he says. Repent and be saved.
But the truth is, Rwandas justice system is drowning in a sea of pink. It will take the national courts 200 years to get through the cases, and they are not even the worst. 07:15
Aerial from plane Music Byrne: The masterminds of the genocide, those charged with crimes against humanity, must face the international courts. But here too justice is a long time coming, and very, very far away.Music 07:31
Byrne: You must fly across the Serengeti, over Kilimanjaro, until you reach the small Tanzanian city of Arusha, home to the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. Like its cousin at the Hague, the tribunal is run by the United Nations. 07:57
Seromba inside tribunal Seromba: I am Father Seromba Athanese. 08:17
Byrne: Here are the faces behind the horror many men of the cloth like Father Athanese Seromba, charged with bulldozing that church his own church with hundreds of his own Tutsi congregation inside.
Judge Pillay Judge Pillay: How do you plead to count one, genocide? Seromba: I plead not guilty. 08:35
Fleming in tribunal Byrne: Among the courts dozens of prosecutors is QC Ken Fleming. Fleming: the court should take the opportunity to be creative. 08:44
FlemingSuper: Ken Fleming QC Prosecutor Byrne: Do you think people are just really mind boggled by the scope and the horror of the crimes committed?Fleming: Im sure thats the case, and in fact its very difficult even working here as long as I have to get your mind around the immensity of it. Byrne: Youve been here getting on for three years, do you understand yet why it happened?Fleming: No. Byrne: Does anyone?Fleming: I dont think so 08:51
Judge Pillay Pillay [bangs gavel]: Court is in session, Mr Fleming? 09:14
Byrne: Ken Flemings current case is against the former Information Minister, Eliezer Niyitegeka, who not only sanctioned those murderous broadcasts, but is accused of killing Tutsis himself.
Niyitegeka in tribunal/Fleming Fleming: He spent time out there during the genocide, we allege, involved in the leadership of a number of massacres, particularly in the Bisesero Hills. 09:33
Music
Bisesero Hills/Photos Byrne: The Bisesero Hills hold a special place in Rwandas dark story where some 50,000 Tutsis whod fled massacres elsewhere in the country gathered to make a desperate last stand. Just 700 or so survived. 09:54
Fleming: But groups of soldiers, Interahamwe -- these are the allegations -- came and shot people. It was though it was a turkey shoot. They were fighting against people who were trying to arm themselves with rocks or with branches or whatever they could find.
Fleming Many of them had massive wounds, many of the women had been sexually abused in ways you cant begin to understand. 10:34
Hospital complex Singing Byrne: Some of those who fled to Bisisero came from here, the Seventh Day Adventist church and hospital complex at Mungonero, in western Rwanda. It is a landmark case in establishing just how deeply senior church figures were involved in the genocide. 10:44
Samuel makes bed Byrne: Samuel was a hospital orderly, who buried himself beneath a pile of bodies, and survived. Nine of his family did not. 11:19
Samuel: We fled here because it was a church hospital, managed by the son of the pastor. Those who run the hospital are Christian and we told ourselves that Christians werent meant to kill one another. Byrne: How could a man of God behave like this?Samuel: We didnt understand either. 11:29
Byrne: It was Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana who ran the Mugenero complex and now denies all at Arusha. 12:09
Byrne walks with Samuel Byrne: Yet Samuel insists he saw his Pastor block the path of fleeing Tutsis. He saw this man of God shoot his own flock . 12:20
Samuel Samuel: I saw him kill. Hes a killer. Hes able to plead not guilty in front of other people but he wont plead not guilty before God. 12:30
Nyitigeka in tribunal Byrne: And Nyitigeka? In the Bisisero Hills, Samuel claims, he saw them both -- the Information Minister, and the Pastor, carrying guns. 12:49
Samuel: Niyitegeka I saw as well. I saw him on four occasions there. I know that he shot a child in the hip. The child fell very close to where I was. 13:05
Samuel walks with Byne to grave Byrne: Samuel is an eye witness. He knows where the bodies are buried including, in the mass grave beneath this grass, that of his older brother. Yet he has not been called to Arusha. 13:24
Edit suite/tribunal Byrne: As for the results: the Arusha Tribunal has, to date, achieved a grand total of eight -- repeat eight -- convictions. 13:42
Kagame Kagame: Its not enough, and especially when you look at the resources used thats millions, tens of millions of U.S. dollars, just for eight. 13:54
Judge Pillay Pillay: They asked for the tribunal, they should assist us in seeing that we perform our work. 14:07
Byrne: Judge Navanathem Pillay is the tribunals president, a South African human rights lawyer who insists that justice takes time.
Pillay: People tend to compare us to Nuremberg, 55 years ago, when they completed and executed a large number of people over a matter of ten months.Byrne: Wouldnt wash now, though, would it. Pillay: No, because of where we are. All the conventions, all the developments with regard to what we would accept as fair trial.Byrne: Do you feel the pressure, the time pressure?Pillay: I do, all the time, and the principal reason is that we have 29 people in our custody here in Arusha who have been awaiting trial for periods of 3 to 5 years 14:23
Fleming in tribunal on camera Fleming: We want there to be a tangible record so that 15:03
Byrne: Politics, too, creates problems. Under Judge Pillay, the tribunal has extended its brief from genocide crimes to human rights abuses committed by the Tutsi rebels under Kagames leadership. Relations are now so sour, the Government is sending witness planes back to Arusha empty . And the tribunal warns the whole process may soon grind to a halt.
PillaySuper: Judge Navanthem PillayInternational Criminal Tribunal Pillay: The Rwandan government has to anticipate that if they dont send the witnesses there will be no trials. 15:36
Resort complex Music
Byrne: It is the phrase of our times to move on. For nine million Rwandans, it is their dearest wish, and their best hope but how?Music Byrne: The just ones are all dead, this Rwandan song goes. Those left eye one another like ferocious leopards. With justice stalled, the killers unpunished, who now will judge Rwandas genocide? 16:10
Village Byrne: On hilltops around the country, theyre trying for a local solution. A bold experiment called gacaca meaning justice in the grass. 16:55
Gacaca court Gacaca is the old way of settling disputes. Judges known as the Upright Ones are elected in each village .. Rwanda has just sworn in 250,000 of them, from university professors to illiterate peasants. None are lawyers. The whole procedure is highly informal. 17:09
Anyone may air accusations against the prisoners, or anyone in the village. 17:43
Josephine accuses two men in the crowd of involvement in the murder of her husband and three young children. The facts are horribly familiar. 17:57
Josephine Josephine: They had machetes, clubs with nails, spears and swords. Byrne: Did you see them being killed?Josephine: When they slashed them I was afraid and stepped back but they actually killed one I was holding in my arms. 18:09
Gacaca court Byrne: Josephine, a Hutu, married a Tutsi neighbour, never thinking it would affect their children. It did they were targeted as sympathisers. 18:30
Josephine Byrne: What at ages 9, 7 and 5 they said they were sympathising with the rebels?Josephine: Simply because they were born of a Tutsi father, that was enough. They were too young to know what was Hutu or Tutsi. 18:41
Gacaca court Byrne: By international standards, gacaca offers rough justice. Judges themselves are sometimes accused -- you saw; you were there. The panels can imprison for life, or grant freedom all done at speed, with little paperwork and frequent interruptions.The countrys leaders know the risks but what are the alternatives? 19:02
Kagame Byrne: Is that what gacaca really is saying to the world -- Im not interested in your justice, this is what we call justice in Rwanda.Kagame: I think more than that, it is reminding Rwandans that you need to get down and resolve your problems. Nobody owes you a solution to your problems. These people dont care much for you. They dont care about what happens to you, as they didnt care during the genocide.Byrne: So when someone starts to lecture you on international standards of justice?Kagame: I cannot accept a lecture from any of these people. 19:31
Gacaca court Byrne: The purpose of these grassroots tribunals is partly to punish, partly to give villagers a chance to face those who wronged them so, ultimately, they can reconcile. Its still early days, but the signs are promising. 20:09
Silas Byrne: : When will you come out of jail?Silas: I dont know. Its the reason why we believe that gacaca will resolve this problem. We are waiting for gacaca. 20:26
Josephine Byrne: You would forgive them?Josephine: If they ask for pardon I can give them pardon. 20:40
Children dancing Music
Byrne: Rwandans are trying so hard to forgive each other, their pain both wide and deep. Some 60,000 of the countrys households have no parents these dancers are orphans of the genocide. Alone, but reaching out. 20:58
Kigali suburb Yet stories of resilience abound. This whole Kigali suburbs has hundreds of parentless families -- the older brothers and sisters, raising the young. Still, somehow, full of hope for the future. 21:21
Gustave, Byrne: Do you feel reconciled with the Hutus, can you forgive?Gustave: I dont go round singing about, it but we study together I have Hutu friends. Life goes on. Sometimes I remember what they did to us. Byrne: Juliette, youre the youngest sister. Sisters always fight with their brothers, So you fight with your brothers? Juliette: No, I love him very much. I cant do it. 21:38
Juliette,Gustave and Silvestre Byrne: Juliette and her brothers Gustave and Silvestre were wounded, but survived 1994, even as their parents were killed. Juliette: It was terrible, they were tracking us as if wed done something. But we were children, we only knew we were Tutsi but they said we were like serpents. 22:07
Children Music
Byrne: Its been said of Rwandas genocide that no one person killed any one person. They were all involved neighbours, pastors, parents, strangers. You can only hope that somewhere on the road between punishment and forgiveness Rwanda will find its own justice. And show the world something about how to come back from hell. 22:41
Juliette: Pardon is the best thing. Those who are dead cant come back, whether or not you pardon their killers. For me personally I have pardoned them. I pardon them for what they did to me and for killing my parents.Music 23:12
Silvestre Silvestre: I hope that genocide never, never again in Rwanda. Never, never, never, never again. Because it is enough. 23:34
RWANDAN JUSTICEReporter: Jennifer ByrneCamera: Ron FoleySound: Kate GrahamEditor: Garth ThomasResearch: Helen VesperiniProducer: Mick ODonnell