Holland: The Integration Show
July 2003 - 11’15”
Dutch tourist shots Music 13:00
BRISSENDEN: The Dutch, like most Europeans, cling to their traditions. In today's fast paced world, history is comfortable and reassuring, but in the Netherlands, the past really is history and the present is an altogether different country. 13:10
Ayan Hirsi Ali on phone Ayan Hirsi Ali is at the frontline of that debate. She describes herself as a refugee. She was born in Somalia but sought asylum in the Netherlands. Now she's built a political career calling for immigration to be stopped. She says radical Islam is now a threat to Dutch society. 13:34
AyanSuper: Ayan Hirse AliLiberal MP AYAN HIRSI ALI: As long as there is a tension between minorities and majorities, it's not responsible for the government to invite more people from outside, because you can't give them a safe haven and that's what they seek. 13:54
BRISSENDEN: For the past few decades, the Netherlands has had an open door. Immigration has changed the face of the nation. 14:11
Eddy entering office with tape Eddy Zoe is the host of the Integration Show. It's an irreverent dig at a subject that use to be almost taboo in the mainstream Dutch media. Last year the show became a cult hit on the youth network BNN. 14:25
Excerpt from Integration Show EDDY ZOE: We did the Integration Show because after the twin towers disaster, foreigners, and especially all the ethnics in Holland, basically were very much frowned upon and were suspicious 14:48
Eddy Zoe and what we wanted to show is that you can have a lot of fun with all the ethnics and learn a lot from all the ethnics and also point out that a lot of customs from the Dutch are ridiculous as well. 15:02
Fortuyn walking down street BRISSENDEN: The man who forced the immigration discussion to the surface was Pim Fortuyn, a uniquely Dutch politician – flamboyant, openly gay and extremely controversial. Fortuyn pushed a blatantly anti-immigrant agenda. He blamed migrants, especially Muslims, for the increasing crime rate. He called for Holland's borders to be closed and he claimed that Islam was threatening Dutch traditions. 15:14
Fortuyn at press conference PIM FORTUYN: Yes, it is a backward culture. I have written a complete book about it. 15:42
BRISSENDEN: In his short time in the spotlight, Fortuyn turned politics in the Netherlands on its head. A fact now recognised by grassroots politicians of all persuasions. LUCIE WEISS VAN DER LAAN: He made it possible to talk about immigrants in a way that we'd never done before 15:51
Lucie in the Netherlands. Very simplistic, black and white – so much us against them and articulated feelings that were already there in Dutch society which is that they're the foreigners, they should adapt, they don’t have the same kind of values we do and it's up to them to change. 16:05
Lucie handing out leaflets BRISSENDEN: Lucie Weiss van der Laan is a member of the small centre left part, D66. Even she says Pim Fortuyn deserves credit for breaking open a much needed debate.LUCIE WEISS VAN DER LAAN: So it very much polarised the debate on the one hand but on the other hand it allowed public feeling to be voiced in a way 16:19
Lucie they had never done before and which I guess in a way was also necessary because we'd been suppressing it for too long. 16:41
African band BRISSENDEN: On the surface multiculturalism appears to have been a success in Holland. Many work places have tried hard to promote integration. Cultural days like this are common. But in some Dutch cities, immigrants now make up more than half the population and Mohammed is the most popular name for baby boys. Pim Fortuyn believed Dutch tolerance had gone too far, so does Ayan Hirsi Ali.AYAN HIRSI ALI: The notion that all cultures are alike and all cultures are equal has been behind policy. So if you had within cultures like female genital mutilation 16:53
Ayan Hirsi Ali or women being beaten up or locked inside or being married off to other men who they have not chosen or being raped, if that happened within minority communities, then it was condoned because all cultures are supposed to be equal and I said if define tolerance that way, it is wrong. 17:37
Hirsi with group of women politicians having photo taken BRISSENDEN: Like Pim Fortuyn, Ayan Hirsi Ali is deliberately controversial. She's openly criticised Islam and the teachings of the prophet Mohammed. Her views have catapulted her into the parliament. At the last election, she won a seat for the Liberal Party. She's now one of the new crop of women politicians. She says the success of Pim Fortuyn's political party in the May 2002 election changed the political culture of the nation and gave her the platform she was looking for.AYAN HIRSI ALI: What has dramatically changed is before the 15th of May, anyone who would dare criticise Islam would be called an Islamophobic, anyone who would criticise the cultures of 18:00
Ayan Hirsi Ali non-western people would be called a racist, people would say you are discriminating and I think my role is that I confuse those people because I am black and I was a Muslim and I'm a woman and I say exactly those things so it's really difficult to accuse me. 18:52
Ayan Hirsi Ali at Polling booth BRISSENDEN: It's also difficult to accuse her because of her own traumatic experiences. Ayan Hirsi Ali was circumcised when she was just five, she was locked in doors for most of her youth and she escaped from an arranged marriage in her 20s. But in Holland, she's been compared to Salman Rushdie. Her views have sparked outrage in the Muslim community. She's been condemned by clerics and become the target of death threats. She now travels everywhere with bodyguards.AYAN HIRSI ALI: It's kind of fatalistic so I don’t really pay much attention to these imams as long as I have protection with me now. That's the 19:13
Ayan Hirsi Ali advantage of having security, then I can fight them with words because they have no arguments. 19:52
LucieSuper: Lucie Weiss van der LannD66 Party LUCIE WEISS VAN DER LAAN: I think at the end of the day it's very healthy to have her as part of the debate because you do need to have Muslim women coming out and explaining why they think certain practices are or are not acceptable and if what Ayan Hirsi is doing is stereotyping, well let them explain why they don’t fit into that stereotype. I think it's been very good in getting things out in the open. 19:57
Men at mosque BRISSENDEN: Proof of the shift in political thinking in Holland can already be found in the mosques. Proposals have been put forward that would require imams to deliver their sermons in Dutch and perhaps surprisingly, many clerics have embraced the efforts being made to help bridge the cultural barriers. Mehmet Hulusi Üñye is the head mufti at Amsterdam's Turkish mosque. He's also an enthusiastic Dutch language student. His teacher says many clerics share the mufti's motivation.MARTIN HART, Teacher: There is negative publicity about Islam and about Muslims 20:23
MartinSuper: Martin HartDutch language teacher and they want to participate in the discussions that are going around in the media so they want to be able to follow the media better, to read the newspapers, to watch television programs and also to express their own ideas because in their opinion there are a lot of misunderstandings. 21:02
Muslim men at cafe BRISSENDEN: But not all Muslims are so keen to embrace the politician's new integration ethic. For some, even the word itself presents a problem.YOUSSEF MELLOUK: We have to integrate sure, but how should I integrate? What does a Dutch person think of my integration? I think that as a Moroccan I speak Dutch, 21:21
Youssef I interact with the Dutch, I do my work and I respect the rules and regulations of the Dutch. I think that is already a lot of integration. Should I dye my hair blonde? Would that mean I am more integrated? No. 21:44
Youssef at meeting BRISSENDEN: Youssef Mellouk is a Moroccan Islamic scholar. He says integration requires cultural respect from both sides. He spends a good deal of time actively trying to facilitate communication between the two communities, but he says Ayan Hirsi Ali isn't helping. YOUSSEF MELLOUK: It would be nice if Hirsi Ali would retract her comments about the Prophet Mohammed. I could easily be negative -- I've read things here, there and everywhere-- 22:05
Youssef but I'd never be negative about Jesus – who would be the Christian equivalent – or Moses. I hope she retracts her words. You tarnish somebody who is the best person in the universe and I can understand people if they express their hatred towards her. You can talk, Islam doesn’t say at all that you can't talk, no, but there are limits. 22:32
Liberal Party election celebration BRISSENDEN: On election night earlier this year, Hirsi Ali's Liberal Party wasn't celebrating victory. While she won her seat, the Party didn’t win a place in government but for all the traditional parties of the centre, this was a welcome return to normality for Dutch politics.LUCIE WEISS VAN DER LAAN: Just as much people love us for our clogs and windmills, people also think of the country which allows homosexuals to get married, it's a country which doesn’t spend its police time cracking down on soft drugs when we all know that that's not where the big problems are – at the same time it's not good 23:21
Lucie if there are serious problems in society with people who don't integrate, population groups that cause a large percent of the crime that we're not able to discuss that and I'm glad that we've gotten over that hurdle and that we can discuss it quite openly without having be branded a racist or a fascist immediately. 23:49
Tourist shots BRISSENDEN: By taking on board some of the policies of the late Pim Fortuyn, the mainstream has won back the votes of the radical right and ironically that in itself is proof, they say, that the tradition of tolerance is still alive and well in the Netherlands. 24:17
Credits Reporter: Michael BrissendenCamera: Ron Ekkel/John BenesEditor: Stuart MillerProducer: Niamh Keegan
July 2003 - 11’15”
Dutch tourist shots Music 13:00
BRISSENDEN: The Dutch, like most Europeans, cling to their traditions. In today's fast paced world, history is comfortable and reassuring, but in the Netherlands, the past really is history and the present is an altogether different country. 13:10
Ayan Hirsi Ali on phone Ayan Hirsi Ali is at the frontline of that debate. She describes herself as a refugee. She was born in Somalia but sought asylum in the Netherlands. Now she's built a political career calling for immigration to be stopped. She says radical Islam is now a threat to Dutch society. 13:34
AyanSuper: Ayan Hirse AliLiberal MP AYAN HIRSI ALI: As long as there is a tension between minorities and majorities, it's not responsible for the government to invite more people from outside, because you can't give them a safe haven and that's what they seek. 13:54
BRISSENDEN: For the past few decades, the Netherlands has had an open door. Immigration has changed the face of the nation. 14:11
Eddy entering office with tape Eddy Zoe is the host of the Integration Show. It's an irreverent dig at a subject that use to be almost taboo in the mainstream Dutch media. Last year the show became a cult hit on the youth network BNN. 14:25
Excerpt from Integration Show EDDY ZOE: We did the Integration Show because after the twin towers disaster, foreigners, and especially all the ethnics in Holland, basically were very much frowned upon and were suspicious 14:48
Eddy Zoe and what we wanted to show is that you can have a lot of fun with all the ethnics and learn a lot from all the ethnics and also point out that a lot of customs from the Dutch are ridiculous as well. 15:02
Fortuyn walking down street BRISSENDEN: The man who forced the immigration discussion to the surface was Pim Fortuyn, a uniquely Dutch politician – flamboyant, openly gay and extremely controversial. Fortuyn pushed a blatantly anti-immigrant agenda. He blamed migrants, especially Muslims, for the increasing crime rate. He called for Holland's borders to be closed and he claimed that Islam was threatening Dutch traditions. 15:14
Fortuyn at press conference PIM FORTUYN: Yes, it is a backward culture. I have written a complete book about it. 15:42
BRISSENDEN: In his short time in the spotlight, Fortuyn turned politics in the Netherlands on its head. A fact now recognised by grassroots politicians of all persuasions. LUCIE WEISS VAN DER LAAN: He made it possible to talk about immigrants in a way that we'd never done before 15:51
Lucie in the Netherlands. Very simplistic, black and white – so much us against them and articulated feelings that were already there in Dutch society which is that they're the foreigners, they should adapt, they don’t have the same kind of values we do and it's up to them to change. 16:05
Lucie handing out leaflets BRISSENDEN: Lucie Weiss van der Laan is a member of the small centre left part, D66. Even she says Pim Fortuyn deserves credit for breaking open a much needed debate.LUCIE WEISS VAN DER LAAN: So it very much polarised the debate on the one hand but on the other hand it allowed public feeling to be voiced in a way 16:19
Lucie they had never done before and which I guess in a way was also necessary because we'd been suppressing it for too long. 16:41
African band BRISSENDEN: On the surface multiculturalism appears to have been a success in Holland. Many work places have tried hard to promote integration. Cultural days like this are common. But in some Dutch cities, immigrants now make up more than half the population and Mohammed is the most popular name for baby boys. Pim Fortuyn believed Dutch tolerance had gone too far, so does Ayan Hirsi Ali.AYAN HIRSI ALI: The notion that all cultures are alike and all cultures are equal has been behind policy. So if you had within cultures like female genital mutilation 16:53
Ayan Hirsi Ali or women being beaten up or locked inside or being married off to other men who they have not chosen or being raped, if that happened within minority communities, then it was condoned because all cultures are supposed to be equal and I said if define tolerance that way, it is wrong. 17:37
Hirsi with group of women politicians having photo taken BRISSENDEN: Like Pim Fortuyn, Ayan Hirsi Ali is deliberately controversial. She's openly criticised Islam and the teachings of the prophet Mohammed. Her views have catapulted her into the parliament. At the last election, she won a seat for the Liberal Party. She's now one of the new crop of women politicians. She says the success of Pim Fortuyn's political party in the May 2002 election changed the political culture of the nation and gave her the platform she was looking for.AYAN HIRSI ALI: What has dramatically changed is before the 15th of May, anyone who would dare criticise Islam would be called an Islamophobic, anyone who would criticise the cultures of 18:00
Ayan Hirsi Ali non-western people would be called a racist, people would say you are discriminating and I think my role is that I confuse those people because I am black and I was a Muslim and I'm a woman and I say exactly those things so it's really difficult to accuse me. 18:52
Ayan Hirsi Ali at Polling booth BRISSENDEN: It's also difficult to accuse her because of her own traumatic experiences. Ayan Hirsi Ali was circumcised when she was just five, she was locked in doors for most of her youth and she escaped from an arranged marriage in her 20s. But in Holland, she's been compared to Salman Rushdie. Her views have sparked outrage in the Muslim community. She's been condemned by clerics and become the target of death threats. She now travels everywhere with bodyguards.AYAN HIRSI ALI: It's kind of fatalistic so I don’t really pay much attention to these imams as long as I have protection with me now. That's the 19:13
Ayan Hirsi Ali advantage of having security, then I can fight them with words because they have no arguments. 19:52
LucieSuper: Lucie Weiss van der LannD66 Party LUCIE WEISS VAN DER LAAN: I think at the end of the day it's very healthy to have her as part of the debate because you do need to have Muslim women coming out and explaining why they think certain practices are or are not acceptable and if what Ayan Hirsi is doing is stereotyping, well let them explain why they don’t fit into that stereotype. I think it's been very good in getting things out in the open. 19:57
Men at mosque BRISSENDEN: Proof of the shift in political thinking in Holland can already be found in the mosques. Proposals have been put forward that would require imams to deliver their sermons in Dutch and perhaps surprisingly, many clerics have embraced the efforts being made to help bridge the cultural barriers. Mehmet Hulusi Üñye is the head mufti at Amsterdam's Turkish mosque. He's also an enthusiastic Dutch language student. His teacher says many clerics share the mufti's motivation.MARTIN HART, Teacher: There is negative publicity about Islam and about Muslims 20:23
MartinSuper: Martin HartDutch language teacher and they want to participate in the discussions that are going around in the media so they want to be able to follow the media better, to read the newspapers, to watch television programs and also to express their own ideas because in their opinion there are a lot of misunderstandings. 21:02
Muslim men at cafe BRISSENDEN: But not all Muslims are so keen to embrace the politician's new integration ethic. For some, even the word itself presents a problem.YOUSSEF MELLOUK: We have to integrate sure, but how should I integrate? What does a Dutch person think of my integration? I think that as a Moroccan I speak Dutch, 21:21
Youssef I interact with the Dutch, I do my work and I respect the rules and regulations of the Dutch. I think that is already a lot of integration. Should I dye my hair blonde? Would that mean I am more integrated? No. 21:44
Youssef at meeting BRISSENDEN: Youssef Mellouk is a Moroccan Islamic scholar. He says integration requires cultural respect from both sides. He spends a good deal of time actively trying to facilitate communication between the two communities, but he says Ayan Hirsi Ali isn't helping. YOUSSEF MELLOUK: It would be nice if Hirsi Ali would retract her comments about the Prophet Mohammed. I could easily be negative -- I've read things here, there and everywhere-- 22:05
Youssef but I'd never be negative about Jesus – who would be the Christian equivalent – or Moses. I hope she retracts her words. You tarnish somebody who is the best person in the universe and I can understand people if they express their hatred towards her. You can talk, Islam doesn’t say at all that you can't talk, no, but there are limits. 22:32
Liberal Party election celebration BRISSENDEN: On election night earlier this year, Hirsi Ali's Liberal Party wasn't celebrating victory. While she won her seat, the Party didn’t win a place in government but for all the traditional parties of the centre, this was a welcome return to normality for Dutch politics.LUCIE WEISS VAN DER LAAN: Just as much people love us for our clogs and windmills, people also think of the country which allows homosexuals to get married, it's a country which doesn’t spend its police time cracking down on soft drugs when we all know that that's not where the big problems are – at the same time it's not good 23:21
Lucie if there are serious problems in society with people who don't integrate, population groups that cause a large percent of the crime that we're not able to discuss that and I'm glad that we've gotten over that hurdle and that we can discuss it quite openly without having be branded a racist or a fascist immediately. 23:49
Tourist shots BRISSENDEN: By taking on board some of the policies of the late Pim Fortuyn, the mainstream has won back the votes of the radical right and ironically that in itself is proof, they say, that the tradition of tolerance is still alive and well in the Netherlands. 24:17
Credits Reporter: Michael BrissendenCamera: Ron Ekkel/John BenesEditor: Stuart MillerProducer: Niamh Keegan