1:00:00

1:04:22

1:05:15

1:05:36

1:06:06

1:06:18

1:07:13

1:07:28

1:07:40

1:08:06

June 15 2003

TRANSCRIPT: PART ONE

ROSS COULTHART, REPORTER: It's late on a hot, close Baghdad night. Soldiers from the US Army's 2nd Armoured Cavalry are doing their final gear check before going into the city on night patrol. Lightning Troop has suffered no casualties since it fought its way into the city two months ago. But for these young men, the war is still on. Other units have been losing men in hit-and-run attacks by Saddam loyalists almost every day. So no-one is taking any chances.

TWO-WAY RADIO: Yeah, about seven o'clock one shot fired.

ROSS COULTHART: We're joining the patrol on sweeps intended to quell the rampant violence and looting that is raging out of control here.

US SOLDIER: Do you guys want a ride?

ROSS COULTHART: It's after the 11pm curfew. Everyone's regarded as a potential threat. This is tense and often dangerous work. All vehicles are stopped and searched for weapons. Units have been attacked with rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns. Everyone in Baghdad, it seems, has a weapon.

US SOLDIER: Hey, what's this? An AK.

IRAQI MAN: (Speaks Arabic)

US SOLDIER 2: Over there. Stay over there. You two put your hands up. Put your hands up.

ROSS COULTHART: The excuse offered for the assault rifle and Browning pistol is the usual one - the threat of thieves or Ali Babas, as they call them. The guns are confiscated and they're allowed to go.

US SOLDIER: You want me to cuff you up? Ali Baba you?

IRAQI MAN: Yes, no, no, no.

US SOLDIER: Get in the truck and drive away.

ROSS COULTHART: They're obviously saying they need it to protect themselves against thieves, what do you say to that?

SERGEANT JOHN CONQUEST, 2ND ARMOURED CAVALRY: I can't really tell you. I mean, half of them are thieves anyways that are running around here with their vehicles.

ROSS COULTHART: Minutes later, we're in hot pursuit of another truck that's tried to avoid the roadblock.

US SOLDIER: Get out of the truck. Move, let's go.

ROSS COULTHART: In the attempt to get away, this driver has wedged his vehicle in an alleyway full of raw sewage.

US SOLDIER: Come here. Stand over there. Have you got any weapons? Weapons?

IRAQI MAN 2: No.

US SOLDIER: No? OK.

ROSS COULTHART: No weapons, he says, but he's lying.

US SOLDIER: What have you got?

US SOLDIER 2: We got an AK.

US SOLDIER: Oh, you had no weapons, huh, for the baby. Stand there.

US SOLDIER 2: It looked like an AK47 - broke off the stock.

ROSS COULTHART: US forces now find themselves in a law and order role that is often more difficult than the all-out combat they faced two months ago. It's the worst kind of conflict for an occupying army, fighting a small but well-armed and fanatical insurgency. … The great fear is that facing increasingly bold attacks, a twitchy US military could overreact, unleashing a bloodbath. It's a concern now being voiced by America's most loyal supporters, including the head of the Iraqi National Congress, Dr Ahmad Chalabi.

DR AHMAD CHALABI, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: My biggest fear is of some serious acrimony developing between the Iraqi people and the US military…The ingredients of that acrimony would be violence against US troops, their acts to defend themselves.

ROSS COULTHART: Here in Falluja, a city 70km to the west of Baghdad where people are openly hostile to the American occupation, eight US soldiers were killed in as many days last week. Since 17 civilians were shot dead by US soldiers here in April, there's been a spate of tit-for-tat killings. Falluja cleric Sheikh Hamid blames the Americans for bringing it on themselves.

SHEIKH HAMID JEDUAA DIAB, FALLUJA MOSQUE (Translation): The longer that Iraq stays without a government, the less patient Iraqis will become and the less safe it will be for the Americans.

ROSS COULTHART: A quick transition to an Iraqi-run provisional government was promised by the Americans up to a few weeks ago, but the US has now abandoned that plan. Former Iraqi opposition leaders, many of whom were brought back from exile by the US Government, were recently reportedly told by the US civil administrator, Paul Bremer, that they don't represent the country. Bremer will now rule Iraq indefinitely, consulting an Iraqi advisory council chosen by him. America has now clumsily cast itself as the imperial ruler of the new Iraq. It only fuels the simmering resentment in hot beds like Falluja.

SHEIKH HAMID (Translation): Today, we leaders and religious heads in the cities are trying to calm our people's rage. But perhaps the day will come when we will not be able - not be able, to control them.

DR ABDUL MEHDI, SUPREME COUNCIL FOR ISLAMIC REVOLUTION: They came here as liberators, as they say, not as occupiers. They have not to make the mistake to be occupiers.

ROSS COULTHART: Back in Baghdad, there is growing impatience and bewilderment among the inspiring new political class over America's failure to deliver on what it promised. Dr Abdul Mehdi is the spokesman for the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution, a party that supports the move to democracy, but makes no secret of the fact that it would actually like to see an Islamic government in Iraq.

DR ABDUL MEHDI: They have to give the Iraqis the choice to lead themselves.

ROSS COULTHART: This is only one of Saddam Hussein's many royal palaces - outrageous follies all. No expense was spared while his people starved. Of course, democracy never had a chance under Saddam's brutal rule, but can it ever work? 84 years ago, a British colonial administrator made the grim prediction that the new Iraq created back then by the British welding of Shia and Sunni Muslim groups and the Kurds would be the antithesis of democratic government, that it could never function as a single country. The Americans now have the Herculean task of proving that prediction wrong.

The Iraqi National Congress's political advisor, Francis Brooke, is the eternal optimist.

…

FRANCIS BROOKE, I.N.C. POLITICAL ADVISOR: Anything's better than Saddam. Anything is better than the type of totalitarian state on fascist lines that he constructed. Anything is better than Saddam. Anything is better for the Iraqi people, and anything is better for the outside world. Anarchy is better.

ROSS COULTHART: America has repeatedly assured Iraqis it's here to liberate them, not to conquer them. But sceptical Iraqis say that's exactly what the British said last century when it invaded Iraq and installed a puppet monarchy. If the coalition administration is trying to avoid an imperial image, it's sending all the wrong messages by installing itself in one of the royal palaces of the former dictator.

US SOLDIER: Testing, testing, testing is it clean?

ROSS COULTHART: US Ambassador Paul Bremer is meeting the impatient Iraqi political leadership for the first time behind these closed doors. It's at this meeting that US disenchantment with local leaders first becomes apparent. This is a key chance to restore faith with Iraqis that the new rulers here actually know what they're doing.

PAUL BREMER, US AMBASSADOR: While conditions have improved in most of the country, there are parts of the country, particularly here in Baghdad, where we agreed we need to do some work in restoring law and order.

ROSS COULTHART: We are assured we'll later be able to ask Ambassador Bremer some of the hard questions, such as why is he dragging his feet on a new Iraqi Government? Why does America seem to have been caught so unprepared for the scale of damage to Baghdad's basic utilities - water, power? What solutions does he have to restore law and order? But the event soon becomes a debacle. Ducking questions, Ambassador Bremer walks out. Arab journalists are angry. After four hours wait for the promised opportunity to question the ambassador, we're told he wants to go to dinner.

JOURNALIST: Bloody hell.
…

ROSS COULTHART: Two months after the war, the US civil administration in Baghdad seemed just as shambolic as the opposition groups it now apparently dismisses as unrepresentative. Raw sewage flows in the streets, power failures are still commonplace, and crime runs rampant. A massacre in this bakery in central Baghdad shortly after the palace meeting, makes a mockery of the US administration's moves on law and order. In an almost routine scene here, four civilians have been murdered overnight by thieves. US military police wearily secure the shop. After a long wait, Iraqi police arrive. The US has to protect them from locals. Yet there has been a solution on offer for weeks. The Kurds have offered to deploy thousands of policemen from northern Iraq to Baghdad to help clean up the city.

HOSHIAR ZEBARI, KURDISTAN DEMOCRATIC PARTY: We are ready to help and we've offered our assistance, our help and I think we will make it, but things are not moving.

ROSS COULTHART: Here on Baghdad's cruel streets, all police do is cart the bodies of more innocents to the morgue on an open lorry.

…

ROSS COULTHART, REPORTER: In blistering 40-degree heat on a desolate dry plain near the Iraqi town of Al-Hillah Mu'teez Hussein is searching for his brothers. Both disappeared in 1991, taken off the street by Saddam's security force as it crushed an uprising by the majority Shi'ite population.

MU'TEEZ HUSSEIN - MASSACRE VICTIMS' BROTHER (Translation): I'm trying to find them using the identification card numbers, the picture, the clothes. Like this.

ROSS COULTHART: And so have you found anything yet?

MU'TEEZ HUSSEIN (Translation): No. Nothing yet. He was innocent, what did he do? Like all these innocent people there was no reason for it.

WAILING WOMAN (Translation) : Oh, Nabil. Oh, my mother, oh, my father. Look at this horror.

ROSS COULTHART: Across Iraq at numerous sites like this now being uncovered, many grief-stricken people are asking themselves that same question.

WAILING WOMEN (Translation): Oh poor people. My dear ones. What terrible things happened to you?

WAILING WOMEN 2 (Translation): Not even stray dogs die like this.
…

ROSS COULTHART: This farmer witnessed the killings here at Alhalar twelve years ago.

JABER MOHSIN AL-HUSSEINI, FARMER (Translation): They brought them alive and shoved them into the pits. Then they shot them in group. When there were more than five or six down there they shot them. These people were imploring Almighty God to help them.

ROSS COULTHART: There is great concern in Iraq that no effort has been made by the US Army or the United Nations to secure and properly investigate massacre sites like these.

DR AHMAD CHALABI, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: I am downcast by this, I am disappointed and I think that the response has been dismal and inappropriate, as if Iraqis are not human beings and that they - that Saddam's killing of them was something that was par for the course. I think the world should be much more concerned with this. I think the United Nations should be ashamed of themselves.

ROSS COULTHART: These concerns aren't just moral. There's a risk of the majority Shia Muslim community exacting revenge on the mainly Sunni leaders of the ruling Baath Party. As this farmer told us, the names and addresses of the Baath Party officials and soldiers who committed this horrible crime are well known. They live just up the road in Babylon.

MU'TEEZ HUSSEIN (Translation): They will not get away with this. For us, spilling blood can never be forgotten. We must find the guilty one and kill him.

ROSS COULTHART: If there is no proper trial, there will be retribution?

MU'TEEZ HUSSEIN (Translation): Of course, an eye for an eye.

ROSS COULTHART: In Baghdad, the revenge killings are already happening. The driver of this car, a former Baath Party official, was shot in broad daylight as he waited for petrol. America is only beginning to realise the scale of what it will take to rebuild Iraq. US combat soldiers, who were led to believe they'd be going home as soon as Saddam's regime was toppled, now find themselves stuck indefinitely in Baghdad as policeman.

US SOLDIER: Over here. I wish these people would learn how to run their own gas station so that we can catch looters and all that other stuff. The Iraqi police should be doing this. We should not have to do this. It's a shame that they can't even run their own gas station.

ROSS COULTHART: Suspicion of America's motives runs deep here in the Shia holy city of Najaf. Back in 1991, President George Bush Sr incited the Shia uprising against Saddam. But because America feared it could lead to an Iran-backed Islamic state, US troops were ordered not to intervene as thousands of Shiites were slaughtered.

Now 12 years later, the powerful Shia Ayatollah Muhammad Bakr al-Hakim has returned to Najaf. Much to the concern of his rivals, he brought his 10,000-strong Iranian-backed Badr Brigade militia with him. Yet he's claiming he wants democracy.

AYATOLLAH MUHAMMAD BAKR AL-HAKIM (Translation): There's no doubt that I desire an Islamic Government for Iraq. But we have agreed with the political powers that there should be a democratic government which respects Islam.

ROSS COULTHART: To Western journalists, the Ayatollah presents a moderate face, but since he returned here to Najaf in April, what has won him rapid acclaim from the crowd is his condemnation of America as an enemy and his insistence that coalition forces leave Iraq.

Do you think that if an election was held, you would have the numbers and that an Islamic state would be supported by the people of Iraq?

AYATOLLAH MUHAMMAD BAKR AL-HAKIM (Translation): We do not believe that the successful politician is the one with the highest numbers. But rather, the one who pleases Almighty God. That's our opinion. There's a big difference between the people of Australia and the people of Iraq.

…

 
ROSS COULTHART: Another potential flashpoint is the insistence by the Kurdish militia groups that they should be allowed to keep their weapons because they fought with the coalition to liberate Iraq. Jalal Talabani, the leader of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan Party, dismisses Shiite calls for his militia men to be disarmed ..

JALAL TALABANI, PATRIOTIC UNION OF KURDISTAN: No, I think this is nonsense because the Kurdish forces were partner with the coalition, with the United States and the United Kingdom. They were part of this coalition. They were part of the fighting. They fought against the dictatorship.

ROSS COULTHART: If the Kurds don't disarm, then the Shi'ite militias won't either. ..

DR ABDUL MEHDI, SUPREME COUNCIL FOR ISLAMIC REVOLUTION: If one party will keep the weapons, then all the parties will keep it some way or the other…

ROSS COULTHART: When Dr Ahmad Chalabi was triumphantly returned to Iraq by his Pentagon supporters, he was widely touted as a leader-in-waiting. From dawn till dusk his day consists of endless meetings. These tribal leaders from Baghdad and Najaf pledged support, but demanded he do something about the crime problem. But Chalabi also has his detractors in the US camp, especially in the CIA and State Department. His enemies point to the fact that he fled Jordan after being accused, and later convicted in his absence, of a serious bank fraud.

Are you a crook?

DR AHMAD CHALABI: My behaviour, my public actions, my record completely belies this. These things are being put forward to stop a democratic movement from taking root in Iraq.

ROSS COULTHART: And for the moment, Chalabi is also claiming he doesn't want to ever lead Iraq. But no-one doubts that this wily politician is doing anything other than keeping his powder dry. It's better for him to let the American regime take the blame for Iraq's current woes. It's clear that among the old opposition leadership, Chalabi is seen as a palatable figurehead for the new Iraq.

Is Dr Chalabi a worthwhile candidate?

JALAL TALABANI: If Dr Chalabi will candidate himself, I personally will vote for him.

ROSS COULTHART: But is Dr Ahmad Chalabi the US lackey that he's commonly accused of being?

FRANCIS BROOKE, I.N.C. POLITICAL ADVISOR: Dr Chalabi is a free and independent actor. He is not buyable, which is an important fact in the intelligence world. Some people are buyable. Dr Chalabi is not buyable. He also doesn't take orders from anybody. It's one of the reasons I like him. I think that, you know, people like that are admirable.

ROSS COULTHART: On the edge of Baghdad, the huge burning gas flare from the Daura Oil Refinery is a potent and constant reminder of the untold riches at stake here for those now jostling for power.

DATHAR AL-KASHAB, GENERAL MANAGER, DAURA OIL REFINERY: Our main concern was to keep this refinery in one piece and if they get in to steal, the result, we know, the result is burning the refinery.

ROSS COULTHART: For the refinery's general manager, Dathar al-Kashab, keeping this flame alive for the people of Baghdad during the American invasion became a life and death struggle against marauding looters.

DATHAR AL-KASHAB: When they see the flare on, they are relieved. They think that the refinery is running, meaning that there is gasoline, fuel is coming up. If they see the flare is off, they will be in a very bad state you know.

ROSS COULTHART: In early April as Iraqi forces collapsed, he found his refinery under attack from armed local looters. American troops had rushed past to take Baghdad, leaving the refinery unprotected. So Mr al-Kashab handed weapons out to his workers.

DATHAR AL-KASHAB: We had to fight it off and sometimes they shot, and during the shooting I got one of my crude tanks on fire and I had to fire-fight at the same time, fire-fight also outside.

..

ROSS COULTHART:  Iraq has the world's second largest proven oil reserves. It also has the largest probable oil reserves. When that oil begins to flow onto the world market in several years, its impact on the OPEC oil cartel - controlled by the world's main oil-producing nations - will be dramatic, perhaps slashing the world price of crude oil.

DATHAR AL-KASHAB:  I mean, once you're talking about getting the second reserve in the world, obviously the result is to control the prices, or at least you can control the prices when you like. Iraq will be a very big contender to the Saudi portion of production.

ROSS COULTHART: When Saddam Hussein's Iraq was hit with sanctions after it invaded Kuwait in 1990, Saudi Arabia - the world's biggest oil producer - picked up the bulk of Iraq's oil quota.

Is there any possibility that Iraq would consider taking itself out of OPEC?

FRANCIS BROOKE: Yeah, I think there probably is. You know, again, that's a decision that Iraqi people are going to have to take for themselves. But there certainly is a strong moral argument that OPEC nations who absorbed Iraq's production capacity and turned it into their own production capacity over the intervening 10 or 12 years, have some responsibility to Iraq and I would be surprised if there isn't a mechanism whereby they can all come to a mutual agreement. But if there was no mutual agreement, I think Iraq would be well within its rights and only would be serving the interests of its own people to go ahead and set production levels in their own interests.

ROSS COULTHART: Since President Bush declared the end of major combat here at the beginning of last month, these American troops know 43 of their comrades have died in attacks or accidents. By comparison, 138 were killed during the entire war.

Today, the 2nd Armoured Cavalry's Lightning Troop is patrolling here to scare away gun dealers who have been selling weapons. The US knows now that it's going to have to stay in Iraq for years to clean up Saddam's legacy. It seems inevitable that many more young American men and women will die in that time.

DR AHMAD CHALABI: More that the Iraqi people feel they have been denied the right to exercise sovereignty and be their own masters. The more negative they become, the more violence against coalition forces will take place, the more restrictive the coalition forces will be and then that cycle will feed on itself.

ROSS COULTHART: As those deaths mount, the American public will soon be asking if Iraqi freedom is worth the cost.

 

================  ENDS  ==================

SELECTED EXTRACTS FROM INTERVIEW WITH ROSS COULTHART
AND DR AHMAD CHALABI

Recorded (Date)

DOES CHALABI ACTUALLY WANT TO BE A FUTURE LEADER OF IRAQ?

ROSS COULTHART: Do you have the numbers to run this country?

AHMAD CHALABI: I am not a candidate for any positions.

ROSS COULTHART: But will you be.

AHMAD CHALABI: No, I don't have, I don't plan to do that at this time.

ROSS COULTHART: You won't ever be a candidate?

AHMAD CHALABI: Ever is a long time but I don't have any plans at this time.

ROSS COULTHART: Would you like to be?

AHMAD CHALABI: Not particularly, no.

ROSS COULTHART: Why not?

AHMAD CHALABI: Because I am very interested in being here and living in Iraq and working with the on many issues working and improving civil society, the institutions of civil society, the underpinnings of democracy and my message to the people is that what we should do in all our minds our work and our constitution is to demote the position of a ruler and there should be people in the country who are more important than the President or the Prime Minister. The major issue in Iraq is getting things going. Getting Iraqi sovereignty back into the hands of Iraqis. Having a serious democratic institution building process here and building civil society and it's not about me. It shouldn't be.

ROSS COULTHART: A lot of it is though and I know you're perhaps uncomfortable with that but when people talk about a future Iraq they see Dr Chalabi as being right at the top of that country. Are you uncomfortable with that idea?

AHMAD CHALABI: I keep saying to you, the ruler, the president should not be the most important person in Iraq. There are, people must be able to excell in other fields. The point we must make politics not the only source of importance and power and influence in the country. We need to have Iraqis become significant figures in the society through other means.

ROSS COULTHART: If you are asked to lead an INC Party into a new representative democracy, into a new Parliament, would you do that?

AHMAD CHALABI: I don't do it.

ROSS COULTHART: You don't want to do that?

AHMAD CHALABI: No.

ROSS COULTHART: Why not?

AHMAD CHALABI: Because I don't think it is something that I would like to do at this time because it would have enormous consequences. It would maybe restrict my ability to live and to at the same time be less and rewarding.

ROSS COULTHART: Is it difficult for you, that constant concern that you may be a target?

AHMAD CHALABI: It's not a concern to me. I don't think about it at all and it doesn't really affect what I do or where I go. The only thing it affects me is the uncomfort it generates among the security people and that is what prevents me from doing things.

WHAT DOES CHALABI SAY TO THE CRITICISM THAT HE'S AN OUTSIDER WHO LEFT IRAQ DURING SADDAM'S REGIME AND SO HE WON'T BE POLITICALLY POPULAR?

AHMAD CHALABI: What other figure besides Saddam and the Baathists did they know. Even if they were living here. The point is that most people do not know each other in any significant sense politically. Uh, there was no person or personality who was ever in a prominent position despite how competent or good he was, during Saddam's period because they just blocked the media from anybody knowing anybody else and I think I can claim that people know me a lot more here because they heard about me from foreign radios than from people who were living here in Iraq who were not Baathists.

HOW'S CHALABI GOING TO GET ON WITH FORMER HOSTILE OPPOSITION GROUPS SUCH AS THE IRAQI NATIONAL ACCORD?


ROSS COULTHART: There are people in the new Parliament who have plotted to kill you over the years aren't there - some in the Iraqi National Accord at times have planted bombs in the INC HQ. There have been efforts to destroy your organisation and you. How is all this going to work in a new flourishing democracy?

AHMAD CHALABI: I don't think any of the Iraqi opposition groups tried to kill me on their own or tried to plot against me on their own. I became unpopular with some major foreign agencies and they ah sort of did the Thomas Beckett thing.

ROSS COULTHART: Well that's the great irony. It's the CIA you're talking about.

AHMAD CHALABI: I don't know that they actually said anything like that. After all, it's illegal for them to assassinate anyone.

WHAT DOES CHALABI SAY TO THE SUGGESTION HE'S A US LACKEY?

AHMAD CHALABI: I say to that... ..my response is this. Who has used who? After all, whose army is in the other's country liberating them? The US is here liberating Iraq from Saddam Hussein. That is victory enough for me and it is something that you should think about.

ROSS COULTHART: But long-term?

AHMAD CHALABI: Wait a minute! As for the matter of oil. The US needs oil and we need to sell oil and I don't think the US is going to buy our oil at reduced cut-rate prices. They will pay fair prices for our oil.

WHAT IS A CHALABI/I.N.C GOVERNMENT GOING TO DO IF OPEC'S OIL CARTEL TRIES TO STOP IRAQ FROM PRODUCING MORE OIL FOR THE WORLD MARKET?

ROSS COULTHART: Iraq, historically, back in 1997 was given an open quota because of the food-for-oil program and that OPEC now that Iraq is resuming production under this new Government, that OPEC will now try to stop Iraq from regaining the quotas it had before 1991. What are you going to do if OPEC gangs up on you and tries to stop you from regaining those pre-1991 levels of oil production?

AHMAD CHALABI: First of all, I don't think the 1991 levels of oil production are going to be enough for Iraq. Uh, Iraq is devastated. Look at the numbers. We need $14 billion a year just for civilian imports, to live. Food and medicine and other requirements of the people. Furthermore, Iraq has a foreign debt, commercial debt. It has accumulated, it has not been serviced since 1988. With the interest it adds up to close to $200 billion. Then Iraq has a reparations bill to Kuwait and other countries as a consequence of Saddam's war in 1990 and 1991. And that is undetermined but the figure is close to, they say, $240 billion. For that money, the UN resolution 687, and the new resolution makes it clear that money will be deducted at the source from Iraqi oil revenues to pay reparations to Kuwait. Furthermore, we have Iran, which Saddam invaded in 1980 and they have, according to resolution 598, the right to claim reparations from Iraq. So what cash requirements do we have in the $50 billion? The OPEC quota we have now will get us maybe $18 billion a year. Every...at current prices. So we are already short maybe $30 billion and that's not counting development costs. Development money. So how are we going to manage with this kind of quota. There may be also claims from the Coalition. But my view of this situation is this. We will work with OPEC but we will find other methods of generating cash from our oil without upsetting the OPEC balance. We will appeal to OPEC to help us and we will not break ranks with them but we will find other ways to get oil money from our huge reserves - cash that we need right now. When there was an embargo on Iraqi oil exports in August 1990 Iraq was exporting about 2 million barrels, 2.2 million barrels, uh - four countries picked up the slack. Iran, Indonesia, Nigeria, picked up amongst them 25% and Saudi Arabia picked up 75%. So Saudi Arabia had 75% of our oil production from 1990, August, until 1996 late. So that's six years of 2 million barrels. Maybe they can repay us by giving us 2 million barrels from their quota now.

ROSS COULTHART: There are those in those neo-conservative groups who say that there is a desirable longer term strategy. And that is talk of dismantling Saudi Arabia, seizing its oil, and collapsing OPEC. Is that something that you see as undesirable?

AHMAD CHALABI: We have no intention of doing anything like that. This is political fantasy. We want to have very good relations with Saudi Arabia as much as we can and we want to work with them. Uh, on these things. Iraq will not be either a centre or a passage way for plots against any of our neighbours.

WHAT DOES CHALABI THINK OF THE US NEO-CON LINE THAT A DEMOCRATIC IRAQ COULD BE A ?DOMINO OF DEMOCRACY' IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

ROSS COULTHART: The American administration talks quite openly of using Iraq as a domino of democracy. Of using it as an exemplary example of what can be achieved with liberty and freedom and democracy to try and perhaps cause destabilisation and democracy in other nations in this immediate region. That's not a bad idea is it?

AHMAD CHALABI: My view is that democracies do not wage war and they do not engage in plots and terrorism. So if the example of democracy in Iraq will be contagious that's all well and good. But we are not going to do any plots or any aggressive action against any of our neighbours. Besides when anybody tells you that the Americans have these plans for democracy in the region I say let us see how Iraqi democracy will emerge and let us see how America is going to support the emergence of this democracy. Which is the most significant question now. How is the US going to help us achieve democracy and what is the process and the resolution of the UN that lifted the sanctions doesn't even mention democracy.

WHAT DOES CHALABI THINK OF THE US ADMINISTRATION IN IRAQ'S DELAYS IN CREATING AN IRAQI-RUN PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT?

ROSS COULTHART: Are you impatient with the pace of transition?

AHMAD CHALABI: I don't think it's a question of impatience. It is a question of commitment. You see we trust President Bush. President Bush said this is liberation not occupation. And we think that he will, that's what he believes and that's what will happen. What happened now is that the bunch of lawyerly concerns got the better of the political sense. Of the decision makers. Because you see the coalition, the British are very concerned with their legal status in Iraq. There was a memo which was leaked by Downing Street from some legal official of their government. Which questioned the legality of Britain's presence in Iraq absent the UN resolution. So they went and found the Geneva Convention of 1949 which gives them rights under international law to act as occupiers. So lawyers won this argument but this is a much bigger argument than a legal concern. Now the resolution is passed one of the very good things about the resolution, it really empowers the US to do whatever they want with the pace of progress towards democracy in Iraq without reference to the UN - which is a positive development. And I believe that President Bush will keep his word and have democracy in Iraq.

ROSS COULTHART: How soon do you think we will see a representative parliamentary democracy here in Iraq?

AHMAD CHALABI: I don't know. But I - we can have it in less than two years. But I don't know how long it will take. You see there is a negative feedback cycle going on here. The more the Iraqi people feel they have been denied the right to exercise sovereignty, and be their own masters, the more negative they become, the more violence against coalition forces will take place, the more restrictive the coalition forces will be and that cycle will feed on itself.

WHAT DOES CHALABI THINK WILL BE THE IMPACT OF THESE DELAYS ON MOVING TO AN IRAQI-RUN GOVERNMENT?

ROSS COULTHART: Do you fear that we could see an escalation, a public outpouring of anger towards the coalition forces?

AHMAD CHALABI: There is already uh there are negative feelings going on among a lot of people. I am getting a lot of expressions of those here. Uh, the level of violence has increased in the past week. But these signs should not be taken as something definitive. However they are worrying.

WHAT OF THE RISK OF INSURGENCY?

ROSS COULTHART: Do you fear an insurgency by elements of the Hussein regime. Do you fear a fightback by Saddam?

AHMAD CHALABI: That is Saddam's work. The attacks on the Americans in this organised fashion. That is Saddam's work. There is noone else owns these weapons. Uh, I think that uh Saddam did not have a serious military plan but he had a post-defeat plan. Which he is putting into effect.

DOES CHALABI FEAR US PUBLIC OPINION TURNING AGAINST KEEPING US TROOPS IN IRAQ?

ROSS COULTHART: A determined insurgency could drag America into a mire that public opinion in the US would not be happy with wouldn't it?

AHMAD CHALABI: I don't think there is a danger of an insurgency because Iraqi people at this time will not stand for it. We will fight Saddam. We will fight the Baathists. We will defeat them on the ground. And uh we are prepared to that.

ROSS COULTHART: Do you fear that the Americans may, under the weight of public opinion, as the death toll of their young men mounts, is it a concern of yours that a determined insurgency, even if it's only a few lives at a time, could begin to corrode the public support in America for a continued American presence in Iraq?

AHMAD CHALABI: I think that we will manage to deal with this issue in coordination with Americans long before it becomes an issue in the US. I think the US will ah see the light in terms of dealing with Iraqis who are their allies in fighting the Baathists.

DOES CHALABI TRUST THE AMERICANS?

ROSS COULTHART: There's a long history of American duplicity, particularly by the CIA, towards your organisation, isn't there?

AHMAD CHALABI: I don't have to be nice to the Americans. I say openly that the US let the Iraqi people down in 1991 again in 1995 and 1996. And on the biggest issue of all is that they refused to bring Saddam to international justice in the UN. That's, these are facts ?

ROSS COULTHART: Well do you trust them now?

AHMAD CHALABI: We trust President Bush and we trust the US Congress and the US people. The interests, Iraq has become in the past decade an issue of domestic American politics. And Americans keep promises they make to each other, especially if there are Congressional resolutions. And we believe the US will keep its words about democracy in Iraq.

WHAT IS CHALABI'S RESPONSE TO SUGGESTIONS HE'S A CROOK?

ROSS COULTHART: Are you a crook?

AHMAD CHALABI: My behaviour, my public actions, my record completely belies this. These things uh are being put forward to stop a democratic movement from taking root in Iraq. These accusations are based on flimsy facts and acts of martial law taken against me by a malicious with malicious intent. Those actions that have been resuscitated time and time again, every time we are successful, have not really stopped uh our march towards democracy in Iraq and reviving them at this time will not stop our march and support for democracy in Iraq. We will forward with that. The point these accusations are based on a trial which took place in a court under martial law without any defence being mounted. We were prevented from defending ourselves ?

ROSS COULTHART: Why didn't you just stay [in Jordan] and face trial?

AHMAD CHALABI: It's very simple. The act was politically motivated. And I was about to be turned over to Saddam and I preferred to live and fight another day than be shackled and tortured by the regime and basically obliterated. And again condemned for the same charge that is false and untrue and when there's nobody to defend it. I took I think the right decision and furthermore I was vindicated in this because in Jordan these charges were in Jordan and after the charges were made and after the sentence was passed I met the King of Jordan four times. And he said openly to me that he thought this was a minor issue that could be settled and he wanted to solve it. This was a few months before he died. And he sent me the chief of the royal court to negotiate with me about how to settle this issue and uh but death overtook the King.

OIL

ROSS COULTHART: What do you say to the critics who say that it's unfair that American oil companies have been awarded these contracts without any transparent oversight, without any open tender, open bidding?

AHMAD CHALABI: I am unaware of the process of how these contracts were awarded. But from my own point of view Americans should get first call on contracts in Iraq because they were they led the effort to liberate Iraq from Saddam and I think the US will give us a fair deal and we will also examine what they do in the light of ah their performance.

WHICH OIL COMPANIES DID CHALABI MEET BEFORE THE WAR AND DID HE CUT ANY SECRET DEALS?

AHMAD CHALABI: The Oil companies displayed remarkable restraint in their dealings, their conversations with us. I not only met American companies, I met Russian companies too. The point is that no contracts were discussed. An exchange of view about the political future of Iraq took place. And uh most of them were uh persuaded that Saddam was staying and that the US was not going to act.

ROSS COULTHART: Now you can categorically assure me that there's no done deals on oil production?

AHMAD CHALABI: With who?

ROSS COULTHART: With American companies or ?

AHMAD CHALABI: I can categorically assure you that there are no done deals of any kind whatsoever. In fact I can assure you that there are no deals of any kind with any American company that uh deal with the production of oil in Iraq ?

ROSS COULTHART: No letters of agreement?

AHMAD CHALABI: No.

ROSS COULTHART: No statements of intent?

AHMAD CHALABI: No.

ROSS COULTHART: And moreover, when those negotiations happen: you'll be driving a hard bargain?

AHMAD CHALABI: I will be fighting for the interests of Iraq if I can - if I am in any position to do so. But as I told you I am not a candidate for the Government and I would urge the Government ?

ROSS COULTHART: at this time!

AHMAD CHALABI: to do their best for the people.

SHOULD THE OLD OIL CONTRACTS NEGOTIATED BY SADDAM BE HONOURED?

AHMAD CHALABI: My personal view on this is that contracts which were negotiated while Iraq was under sanctions should be examined from two points of view. First, whether they are legal and binding on Iraq. The second point of view is did everybody participate in bidding for those contracts.

ROSS COULTHART: Well most of those contracts weren't open tender were they?

AHMAD CHALABI: We will examine whether they are beneficial to the country and I think it's up to the future Iraqi Government to decide whether they are of benefit to the country and whether we can get better deals if they are retendered or renegotiated.

ROSS COULTHART: You can see though how that plays to the conspiracists who suggest that there is some gameplan here to hand over control of the Iraqi oilfields to the Americans. What do you say to that?

AHMAD CHALABI: I say to that Saddam is gone. And without America Saddam would have not gone. And I say to that all those countries and Governments who tried to prevent America from helping us liberate Iraq should examine the moral consequences of their actions before they try to hoist on us financial benefits to them. They let us down. They let us. They wanted to keep Saddam in power and they would not have discovered the atrocities that Saddam had committed. We would not have discovered the evidence of the mass graves which the World now is very reluctant to publicise. It's a blot in the face of all those countries that wanted to keep Saddam in power to see those hundreds of thousand of Iraqis who are buried in these horrible mass graves all over the country. The World has been very slow in providing us with forensic experts to document those huge atrocities.

WHAT DOES CHALABI FEAR MOST?

AHMAD CHALABI: My biggest fear is of some serious acrimony developing between the Iraqi people and the US military.

ROSS COULTHART: Is that a possibility?

AHMAD CHALABI: Yes. I think this is uh a possibility and I am very very concerned about it and I want to prevent it.

ROSS COULTHART: What would provoke that kind of acrimony.

AHMAD CHALABI: The ingredients of that acrimony would be violence against US troops. Their uh acts to defend themselves. The misunderstandings that are created. And the cultural divide that divides Iraqis from the US military now will develop into some kind of animosity. Uh which could lead to further violence and it could sour the relationship. America has the most effective fighting machine in history. They did very well militarily but they are not policemen. And I tell this openly to the Americans. And my view is that the US should help in the creation of a national Iraqi security force. Of up to 25,000 people which would be composed of Iraqis that are not Baathists and don't have criminal records and this force would be uh under the command of the Coalition. It would be paid by the Coalition, armed by the Coalition, trained by the Coalition. And it would should have Coalition troops with it in the ratio of say one to 15 initially and they should be lightly armed and supported by Coalition firepower if need be and they should be on the streets.

ROSS COULTHART: I know that that proposition was put to the Americans weeks ago because we've heard the same idea from Mr Barzani of KDP. Why isn't it happening?

AHMAD CHALABI: I have put this idea to the Americans three years ago. I thought they should train a military police force of Iraqis because I thought the US was going to take military action and I also thought the Iraqi army would go home and there would be no security forces. I have been advocating this since a long time. It is astounding to me why there is no action on this.

ROSS COULTHART: And yet, from what you are saying, if the Americans fail to move fast now on the concerns that you have we are looking at disaster aren't we?

AHMAD CHALABI: Well, I don't like to be dramatic in terms of predicting disaster. We have some time left but not much time. We must move on these issues quickly.

ROSS COULTHART: Why do you think there is this dragging of the feet?

AHMAD CHALABI: It is a - I don't think there's any ill-intent here. It is simply the American military and the American bureaucracy coming to terms with the consequences of the fast total collapse of the Iraqi state. The initial reaction of the Americans is to do more of the same and pour more resources in. So they end up bringing 50-60,000 troops to Baghdad.

ROSS COULTHART: But you don't need combat troops in Baghdad?

AHMAD CHALABI: No, Combat troops are not Policeman and they don't have the skills of policemen. And they are not, cannot really make security because Police work is mostly not violence or firepower. It is mostly information. It is mostly preventive.

WHAT DOES CHALABI THINK OF ORHA - THE OFFICE OF RECONSTRUCTION AND HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IN IRAQ?

AHMAD CHALABI: ORHA are a group of smart, dedicated, people who are sitting in the former Saddam's Palace under really sorry circumstances. It's no palace at all now. They are largely out of touch with people. There have been unfortunate encounters between Iraqis and ORHA. There are some good results. But there have been unfortunate encounters. But I have to tell you that Ambassador Bremer since he came to Baghdad has done very important and great things. He uh passed the de-baathification order and he dissolved the Iraqi security services and the Ministry of Information which is all those acts are liberating acts for Iraqis and we salute them for it? My view is I want Americans to stay. And I want a treaty between Iraq and the US regulating their presence. I think this is very important both for Iraq and the US. There is an American presence in Iraq will not detract from the independence of Iraq if it is done under treaty.

WHAT IS CHALABI'S VIEW OF PRIVATISING THE OIL INDUSTRY?

AHMAD CHALABI: I would like to see the denationalisation of all aspects of the oil industry short of production. All the downstream activities I would like to see denationalised. I would like to see denationalised petrol stations. I would like to see denationalised refineries. I would like to see denationalised Petrochemical industries. All of that I would like to see denationalised.

ROSS COULTHART: So you would still like to see Iraqi Government control over the oil?

AHMAD CHALABI: Since oil is the only resource that will generate sufficient cash for the development of the country initially I would like to see control of the Government, of the central Government of Iraq of all oil production in Iraq.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT TO CATCH SADDAM AND BRING HIM TO JUSTICE FOR HIS CRIMES?

AHMAD CHALABI: This investigation into the crimes of Saddam is of the highest importance. It is of major significance to the Iraqi people and I will do anything in my power - this is one of the things I want to devote myself to - is to build a remembrance to all these people who died at Saddam's hand. And also to go through and document the process of death and torture. And violence that pervaded the regime. I want to show the World, the Arab World, the Muslim World, the West, and all who dealt with Saddam that Saddam has violated the Iraqi people in the most terrible way.

ROSS COULTHART: Are you surprised that there hasn't been the degree of support offered by the international community to see these grave sites properly investigated, properly protected.

AHMAD CHALABI: I am downcast by this. I am disappointed. And I think that the response has been dismal and inappropriate. As if Iraqis are not human beings and that they that Saddam's killing of them was par for the course. I think the World should be much more concerned with this. I think the UN should be ashamed of themselves. And I think all international human rights organisations should do a lot more for Iraqis.

ROSS COULTHART: Retribution is very much a part of tribal law here isn't it? If people don't see justice done is there a fear in your mind that they may take justice into their own hands.

AHMAD CHALABI: The need for justice to be done must be immediately seen in Iraq. Look in France after the liberation of France over a hundred thousand collaborators were killed extra-judiciously. So it's not a matter of tribal society but just human beings in general when there are huge crimes committed against them need to see justice done. And I can tell you now I am very proud of the restraint of the Iraqi people against the Baathists. They have been very restrained. They are waiting. They will wait but they will not forget.

AND WHAT ABOUT THE FUTURE?

AHMAD CHALABI: I think the people of Iraq in ten years time will astound the World by what they will achieve. Iraq will be a very different place. It will be on par with the best countries around it and I think it will supercede them in many fields. We have the best scientists, the best engineers, the best artists. And the best architects of the entire region. And they are all ready to work.

WHAT DID CHALABI THINK OF AUSTRALIA'S POLICY OF INCARCERATING IRAQI REFUGEES?

AHMAD CHALABI: I would hope the Australian authorities would help the repatriation of all those Iraqis who are in refugee camps who actually want to return to Iraq and I think they deserve a speedy resolution to their presence in those camps. And I hope that the Australian Government will look humanely on this problem and we have already told this to the Australian authorities.

ROSS COULTHART: What do you think of the Australian Government policy of incarcerating refugees?

AHMAD CHALABI: I think that uh it was excessive and that Iraqis who came to Australia in the main were genuine refugees and ah I know that - I don't cast any aspersions on Australia as a country which opposed human rights. But at the same time I think a more humane treatment would be very much welcome.

ENDS