02.09
In the morning at 9 o clock look out for a man with a beard, glasses and a green suit at the entrance of the United Nations building in Geneva. This was the message we heard on the telephone last week, from Saddam Husseins only American lawyer.
Mr.Doubbler Curtis Doubbler...? How are you, nice to meet you.
- I would like to go through here with my pass
02.35
One month ago, the 19 lawyers who are going to defend Hussein was made known. Almost all of them come from Egypt, Jordan and Tunisia.
02.47
Curtis Doubbler is the only American listed, There is also one French and one Swiss lawyer. Doubbler is a fascinating figure. On the phone he gives the impression he simply cant work out why we think hes interesting, that he certainly will avoid a lot of subjects and that he knows Holland very well indeed.
03.08
Doubbler speaking in Dutch
3.18
At the U.N. Headquarters in Geneva we follow the man who is to defend Saddam Hussein. He has been on the dream team of Husseins international lawyers for a month now. But he manages to stay relaxed.
3.32
- I think that you will find that, compared to many lawyers particularly international lawyers...I am a fairly simple person.
-Youre a fairly what ?
- a simple person.
- How you mean?
-well, my life is not glamorous, or anything like that. I just do a very trudging job which requires a lot of research, a lot of writing, a lot of work for very little or no pay.
4.01
We will follow this man for a day, which means walking fast in the first place. His overcrowded agenda sends him through Genevas highways and byways, and it takes a strenuous effort to keep pace with him. At high speed he works through his appointments, from seven Oclock in the morning till late at night. All the discussions have to do with human rights.
4.23
Today he is busy looking after the interests of some captured Afghan warriors who are detained in Guantanamo Bay.
4.30
On this American base on Cuba there are hundreds of alleged Taliban and Al Quaeda fighters who have still not been tried. Doubbler is trying to persuade the military tribunal there to resume dealing with his clients cases since they have been imprisoned there for two years.
4.46
But the subject at the moment is Saddam Hussein.
04.56
Interview - Doubbler/ reporter:
- How did you become one of Saddams lawyers?
- I was contacted by individuals that suggested that I could make a contribution to the case.
- But why?
- Perhaps because I have worked very often in the Arab world and I know Iraq quite well. I was in Iraq during the first Gulf War. And just before this Gulf War we made did a report on what we believe would be the effects of the war on children which have come true unfortunately I think in the year after in the war, where the condition of children in Iraq has deteriorated to a state worse than it ever was under Saddam Hussein, under sanctions, in fact. I think that people saw that I was somebody who had had a long standing interest in that area, and I have an expertise in international human rights which is always important in any type of criminal proceedings.
05.52
Paul Bremer: Ladies and gentlemen, We got him
05.59
On December 14, 2003, Hussein was arrested. This was a historical day then, and also the last time we saw anything of the former Iraqi leader.
06.10
Army commandert: Joe, yank that rug off
Since he was captured in the underground shelter in Tikrit, the place where Hussein is being held has remained a secret. A reporter for the British Sunday Telegraph newspaper says he is held under Spartan conditions in a jail at Baghdad Airport. He is said to be examined between six and eight hours a day and gets army rations.
06.35
Bush press briefing at White house:
- Do you think that execution should be an option?
- (snigger) He will be detained. We will work with the Iraqis to develop a a way to try him that will stand international scrutiny, I guess thats the best way to put it.
07.03
Doubbler:
We are trying to encourage the United States, which right now has unilateral, almost exclusive authority over this whole matter, which is very unfortunate because that in itself is, as you can imagine, troubling. Its like a king, back in the Middle Ages, that is not resricted by anything but his own will.
07.23
I prefer you not to film my legal research.
07.28
Doubbler has his office in Washington. Ten years ago he was working in the Dutch town of Alkmaar as a lawyer in a small office, where he assisted asylum seekers. Before this he studied law in Nijmegen and was a volunteer for a Dutch refugee foundation. Since then he has emerged as a real champion of human rights.
07.51
Doubbler speaking in Dutch
08.28
Reporter/Doubbler:
- So, did you go what you were looking for?
- I never get all the answers Im looking for. Otherwise I wouldnt have to look so often. But I did some research and have some information thatll be valuable. Legal research is not something where you find, usually, a golden coin. Its instead finding pennies, and accruing enough pennies that you have something valuable after time.
08.58
Doubblers next meeting is at the Red Cross Headquarters.
Doubbler:
As far as Im aware theyve not done a medical examination of him. Theyve just had visual and oral contact spoken with him.
09.01
The Red Cross is the only organisation that is permitted to visit prisoners of war. They are allowed access to Saddam. He is said to be in good health.
09.28
Reporter/ Doubbler:
- Did you ever meet him?
- No, Ive had the opportunity to meet him and actually declined several times.
- Why?
- I was working on peace projects where our objective was to show solidarity for the people of Iraq. And I thought that it would jeopardise or compromise my impartiality to meet with him.
09.53
Its a remarkable phenomenon. One of the main indictments against Saddam is, without doubt, the committing of crimes against his own people. In 1988 part of the Kurdish population of North Iraq underwent an attack with poison gas dropped from Iraqi planes. In the past, Curtis Doubbler has spoken out for the rights of the Kurds. Ironically, he is now the one protecting the rights of the man held accountable for these crimes.
10.18
Doubbler/ reporter:
There are some moral dilemmas in it, but those are not legal dilemmas. In terms of the legality of it, and the value, the only thing I had to convince myself of is was there a human rights issue here, which I was quickly convinced of after looking at the facts of the case; and whether or not I could make a contribution to that. And I thought I could, and I thought this was a valuable enough case, as I already indicated to you, that it could contribute to the overall protection of individuals human rights. Moral dilemmas are things I have to sort out within myself, and those are more personal matters that are within an individuals own disposition
- What is your moral dilemma at the moment?
- As I said, those are for myself. I think for me to explain my moral dilemmas would take much longer than we have today here, and you still may not understand them because you have a different perspective on values and morals than I do, Im sure.
- Maybe you can give it a try?
- I d rather not.
In the morning at 9 o clock look out for a man with a beard, glasses and a green suit at the entrance of the United Nations building in Geneva. This was the message we heard on the telephone last week, from Saddam Husseins only American lawyer.
Mr.Doubbler Curtis Doubbler...? How are you, nice to meet you.
- I would like to go through here with my pass
02.35
One month ago, the 19 lawyers who are going to defend Hussein was made known. Almost all of them come from Egypt, Jordan and Tunisia.
02.47
Curtis Doubbler is the only American listed, There is also one French and one Swiss lawyer. Doubbler is a fascinating figure. On the phone he gives the impression he simply cant work out why we think hes interesting, that he certainly will avoid a lot of subjects and that he knows Holland very well indeed.
03.08
Doubbler speaking in Dutch
3.18
At the U.N. Headquarters in Geneva we follow the man who is to defend Saddam Hussein. He has been on the dream team of Husseins international lawyers for a month now. But he manages to stay relaxed.
3.32
- I think that you will find that, compared to many lawyers particularly international lawyers...I am a fairly simple person.
-Youre a fairly what ?
- a simple person.
- How you mean?
-well, my life is not glamorous, or anything like that. I just do a very trudging job which requires a lot of research, a lot of writing, a lot of work for very little or no pay.
4.01
We will follow this man for a day, which means walking fast in the first place. His overcrowded agenda sends him through Genevas highways and byways, and it takes a strenuous effort to keep pace with him. At high speed he works through his appointments, from seven Oclock in the morning till late at night. All the discussions have to do with human rights.
4.23
Today he is busy looking after the interests of some captured Afghan warriors who are detained in Guantanamo Bay.
4.30
On this American base on Cuba there are hundreds of alleged Taliban and Al Quaeda fighters who have still not been tried. Doubbler is trying to persuade the military tribunal there to resume dealing with his clients cases since they have been imprisoned there for two years.
4.46
But the subject at the moment is Saddam Hussein.
04.56
Interview - Doubbler/ reporter:
- How did you become one of Saddams lawyers?
- I was contacted by individuals that suggested that I could make a contribution to the case.
- But why?
- Perhaps because I have worked very often in the Arab world and I know Iraq quite well. I was in Iraq during the first Gulf War. And just before this Gulf War we made did a report on what we believe would be the effects of the war on children which have come true unfortunately I think in the year after in the war, where the condition of children in Iraq has deteriorated to a state worse than it ever was under Saddam Hussein, under sanctions, in fact. I think that people saw that I was somebody who had had a long standing interest in that area, and I have an expertise in international human rights which is always important in any type of criminal proceedings.
05.52
Paul Bremer: Ladies and gentlemen, We got him
05.59
On December 14, 2003, Hussein was arrested. This was a historical day then, and also the last time we saw anything of the former Iraqi leader.
06.10
Army commandert: Joe, yank that rug off
Since he was captured in the underground shelter in Tikrit, the place where Hussein is being held has remained a secret. A reporter for the British Sunday Telegraph newspaper says he is held under Spartan conditions in a jail at Baghdad Airport. He is said to be examined between six and eight hours a day and gets army rations.
06.35
Bush press briefing at White house:
- Do you think that execution should be an option?
- (snigger) He will be detained. We will work with the Iraqis to develop a a way to try him that will stand international scrutiny, I guess thats the best way to put it.
07.03
Doubbler:
We are trying to encourage the United States, which right now has unilateral, almost exclusive authority over this whole matter, which is very unfortunate because that in itself is, as you can imagine, troubling. Its like a king, back in the Middle Ages, that is not resricted by anything but his own will.
07.23
I prefer you not to film my legal research.
07.28
Doubbler has his office in Washington. Ten years ago he was working in the Dutch town of Alkmaar as a lawyer in a small office, where he assisted asylum seekers. Before this he studied law in Nijmegen and was a volunteer for a Dutch refugee foundation. Since then he has emerged as a real champion of human rights.
07.51
Doubbler speaking in Dutch
08.28
Reporter/Doubbler:
- So, did you go what you were looking for?
- I never get all the answers Im looking for. Otherwise I wouldnt have to look so often. But I did some research and have some information thatll be valuable. Legal research is not something where you find, usually, a golden coin. Its instead finding pennies, and accruing enough pennies that you have something valuable after time.
08.58
Doubblers next meeting is at the Red Cross Headquarters.
Doubbler:
As far as Im aware theyve not done a medical examination of him. Theyve just had visual and oral contact spoken with him.
09.01
The Red Cross is the only organisation that is permitted to visit prisoners of war. They are allowed access to Saddam. He is said to be in good health.
09.28
Reporter/ Doubbler:
- Did you ever meet him?
- No, Ive had the opportunity to meet him and actually declined several times.
- Why?
- I was working on peace projects where our objective was to show solidarity for the people of Iraq. And I thought that it would jeopardise or compromise my impartiality to meet with him.
09.53
Its a remarkable phenomenon. One of the main indictments against Saddam is, without doubt, the committing of crimes against his own people. In 1988 part of the Kurdish population of North Iraq underwent an attack with poison gas dropped from Iraqi planes. In the past, Curtis Doubbler has spoken out for the rights of the Kurds. Ironically, he is now the one protecting the rights of the man held accountable for these crimes.
10.18
Doubbler/ reporter:
There are some moral dilemmas in it, but those are not legal dilemmas. In terms of the legality of it, and the value, the only thing I had to convince myself of is was there a human rights issue here, which I was quickly convinced of after looking at the facts of the case; and whether or not I could make a contribution to that. And I thought I could, and I thought this was a valuable enough case, as I already indicated to you, that it could contribute to the overall protection of individuals human rights. Moral dilemmas are things I have to sort out within myself, and those are more personal matters that are within an individuals own disposition
- What is your moral dilemma at the moment?
- As I said, those are for myself. I think for me to explain my moral dilemmas would take much longer than we have today here, and you still may not understand them because you have a different perspective on values and morals than I do, Im sure.
- Maybe you can give it a try?
- I d rather not.