Transcript
Williams: Anwar Ibrahim, welcome back to Foreign Correspondent and more importantly your freedom.
Anwar: Thank you.
Williams: What was the hardest thing about those six years in prison - what did you find the toughest aspect of all those years in jail?
Anwar: Thinking of the hardship the ordeal inflicted on Wan Azizah and the family children, how they have to cope without me and in an environment which is very hostile and continuous harassment and unendless vicious and malicious attacks in the media.
Williams: Just describe for us briefly that moment which has led to your injuries now when you were bashed and left, what actually happened then?
Anwar: Well I was arrested blind-folded, handcuffed and I was assaulted severely and left unconscious until the following day. After I regained consciousness I was quite sure that they would not allow me to leave, they would prefer me dead because I think with that sort of injury, I was crawling into the bathroom and still the police officers were exceedingly kind, some of them were crying, they cried when they saw me.
And I said I want to see a doctor and they said when they came back they say sorry sir we tried our best. Well pray for you but we cant do anything.
Williams: Thats extraordinary though for the deputy prime minister of the country to be crawling to go to the toilet and be asking for help and for that help to be denied.
Anwar: That happened thats why I say forgive yes, forget no. You cannot forget and I think this must be a lesson because if it could occur to me, other Malaysians have experienced as well - there is a massive cover up of these atrocities, but I do hope and I will continue to demand that these excesses must stop.
Williams: What does it do to a person particularly of your standing and intellectual rigour and vigour if you like, to be isolated like that? To be told what to do ?
Anwar: They did not treat me just like a common criminal but worse. I was the only one in solitary confinement. I was the only one with a camera in front of the room throughout 24 hour monitoring, surveillance, and to discourage even the wardens, the prison guards, to speak to me.
Williams: What kept you going?
Anwar: I know Im innocent. I know that I will be vindicated ultimately, and I have full confidence in the capacity of the public, the masses, Malaysians, to understand and decide. I know that many of them have to pretend to support the authorities but in a semi-authoritarian regime you have to withstand a lot of pressures and sacrifice if you actually choose to express yourself fully.
Williams: As you know we looked at this very thoroughly, at the conspiracy that was behind your imprisonment and charges. What role did the then Prime Minister Mahathir Mohammed have in your imprisonment?
Anwar: Well he was clearly not the mastermind but he was the chief. I mean he decided, look Anwar has to go, you guys think of a plan strategy to demolish him politically, and to the Muslim masses sexual misconduct is always seen to be a greater crime, because they cant use corruption because corruption is so pervasive among leaders, then and now. And they cannot use sexual misconduct with women because so many scandals involving the colleagues of Mahathir. And for that matter Mahathir was never free of very serious allegations of affairs with women, not when he was 75, but certainly 10 or 20 years earlier. And these are known facts and so homosexuality is something which Moslems find revolting and it is condemned.
Williams: Clearly nursing the physical cost of years in prison, now for the first time he details in person how he fell out of favour with his former ally, the former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohammed.
Williams: So he resented your popularity
Anwar: Yes
Williams: He saw you as a threat
Anwar: Yes but that we could almost contain because I maintained my loyalty towards him I said in no way would I challenge him. I thought the transition should be smooth and he as an intelligent man, not ruthless, would see the necessity of change and retire honourably. But he wanted to fight the entire system. He condemned the West, he condemned (George) Soros, he condemned virtually everyone else the IMF, the World Bank, except himself. There were problems with his sons company. He insisted that they should be a bail out. I said I am sympathetic to your son, let me deal with it let me do whatever I can within my power to delay action against him, but I cant sign the two billion ringgit transaction using government funds.
Williams: Thats what he was asking you to do?
Anwar: Yes
Williams: To bail out his son?
Anwar: Yes. To bail out his son?
Williams: With Mahathir though, in particular, he was your mentor, he was almost like a father to you, politically speaking. How do you feel about what he did today, whatever his motivations were, is there a sense of betrayal? Is there an anger?
Anwar: Yes, but six years have passed and time is a great healer I know .. that he will get on with his life. I think he has suffered enough, I believe he is a very bitter man now. I will exercise of course my right to defend myself from the allegations.. the irresponsible remarks that he made against me. I will not choose to go beyond that.
Williams: That must take a lot. I mean thats an extremely diplomatic and statesman like approach, but six years of your life have been stolen by Mahathir.
Anwar: Yes, as I said I will not forget for the sake of the country for the capacity of people to learn that this corrupt, irresponsible, ruthless oppressive manner must not be allowed to happen again. But what is the point? I have go on. There are so many things we have to do. We have to make sure Malaysia remains a peaceful country, united and why, why, live for the next five to ten years thinking about Mahathir. Hes obsolete, let us forget, and move on. Let us look at this event as a black chapter of our history and move on.
Williams: Abdullah Badawi, what role do you think he played in your release? I know theres talk of the independent judiciary reasserting itself, but clearly in Malaysia under the situation, the Prime Minister has the power to influence that.
Anwar: I did thank Abdullah because it wouldnt have happened if Mahathir was still in power. But I know for a fact that the harassment continue - the judges are, you know, you went a bit too far, I mean, the judiciary, it is very difficult to pull back. And the judiciary there is still the old guard the corrupt members virtually lackeys of the executive are still there.
Williams: What then is your immediate political path? I mean will you go back and head an opposition movement against the government?
Anwar: I am saying that my interest is not participating in politics right now. My interest is national unity, peace, and we have to grapple with this complex issue of terrorism and the way Islam is being demonised. We think that we need to also impress upon the West, particularly the United States, the moment you associate yourself, with an Islamic organisation or group you are deemed to be fanatics and extremists and have a propensity to violence. Now how do you deal with the issue of terrorism and extremism and fanaticism, if you do not engage yourself with credible Moslem groups?
Williams: Just back to your political future, if I may will you keep open the possibility of rejoining the ruling party, UMNO?
Anwar: My commitment is for the reform agenda. My interest right now is not to decide whether or not to rejoin UMNO. I am saying that our agenda is to have a consensus among Malaysians, to forge a more democratic Malaysia, to try to influence both UMNO and the government and the opposition, to try to adjust and behave accordingly as a modern liberal voice in a civilised world.
Williams: So would you be prepared to work with Badawi, in the party, to achieve that?
Anwar: I dont think it is a question of having to work in the party. I should not preclude the emergence of a new consciousness and civil society. It should not, Malaysia is not and should not function as a one party state.
Williams: And if you bump into Mahathir Mohammed back in KL or if he was here now, what would say to him?
Anwar: I would say, hello, I mean no qualms about it. How are you doing? How is your wife and the children and just keep it civil.
Williams: Some people would look at you and find it is quite unbelievable that you could have that grace after what youve gone through.
Anwar: The experience taught me that time is a great healer and I think thats we have to deal with it and we have to look forward, move on, and learn from our past experiences. I just pray hard that this should not recur, that this should not ever happen in this country.
Williams: Anwar Ibrahim thank you very much for talking with us again. I wish you all the best and speedy recovery.
Anwar: Thank You
Williams: Anwar Ibrahim, welcome back to Foreign Correspondent and more importantly your freedom.
Anwar: Thank you.
Williams: What was the hardest thing about those six years in prison - what did you find the toughest aspect of all those years in jail?
Anwar: Thinking of the hardship the ordeal inflicted on Wan Azizah and the family children, how they have to cope without me and in an environment which is very hostile and continuous harassment and unendless vicious and malicious attacks in the media.
Williams: Just describe for us briefly that moment which has led to your injuries now when you were bashed and left, what actually happened then?
Anwar: Well I was arrested blind-folded, handcuffed and I was assaulted severely and left unconscious until the following day. After I regained consciousness I was quite sure that they would not allow me to leave, they would prefer me dead because I think with that sort of injury, I was crawling into the bathroom and still the police officers were exceedingly kind, some of them were crying, they cried when they saw me.
And I said I want to see a doctor and they said when they came back they say sorry sir we tried our best. Well pray for you but we cant do anything.
Williams: Thats extraordinary though for the deputy prime minister of the country to be crawling to go to the toilet and be asking for help and for that help to be denied.
Anwar: That happened thats why I say forgive yes, forget no. You cannot forget and I think this must be a lesson because if it could occur to me, other Malaysians have experienced as well - there is a massive cover up of these atrocities, but I do hope and I will continue to demand that these excesses must stop.
Williams: What does it do to a person particularly of your standing and intellectual rigour and vigour if you like, to be isolated like that? To be told what to do ?
Anwar: They did not treat me just like a common criminal but worse. I was the only one in solitary confinement. I was the only one with a camera in front of the room throughout 24 hour monitoring, surveillance, and to discourage even the wardens, the prison guards, to speak to me.
Williams: What kept you going?
Anwar: I know Im innocent. I know that I will be vindicated ultimately, and I have full confidence in the capacity of the public, the masses, Malaysians, to understand and decide. I know that many of them have to pretend to support the authorities but in a semi-authoritarian regime you have to withstand a lot of pressures and sacrifice if you actually choose to express yourself fully.
Williams: As you know we looked at this very thoroughly, at the conspiracy that was behind your imprisonment and charges. What role did the then Prime Minister Mahathir Mohammed have in your imprisonment?
Anwar: Well he was clearly not the mastermind but he was the chief. I mean he decided, look Anwar has to go, you guys think of a plan strategy to demolish him politically, and to the Muslim masses sexual misconduct is always seen to be a greater crime, because they cant use corruption because corruption is so pervasive among leaders, then and now. And they cannot use sexual misconduct with women because so many scandals involving the colleagues of Mahathir. And for that matter Mahathir was never free of very serious allegations of affairs with women, not when he was 75, but certainly 10 or 20 years earlier. And these are known facts and so homosexuality is something which Moslems find revolting and it is condemned.
Williams: Clearly nursing the physical cost of years in prison, now for the first time he details in person how he fell out of favour with his former ally, the former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohammed.
Williams: So he resented your popularity
Anwar: Yes
Williams: He saw you as a threat
Anwar: Yes but that we could almost contain because I maintained my loyalty towards him I said in no way would I challenge him. I thought the transition should be smooth and he as an intelligent man, not ruthless, would see the necessity of change and retire honourably. But he wanted to fight the entire system. He condemned the West, he condemned (George) Soros, he condemned virtually everyone else the IMF, the World Bank, except himself. There were problems with his sons company. He insisted that they should be a bail out. I said I am sympathetic to your son, let me deal with it let me do whatever I can within my power to delay action against him, but I cant sign the two billion ringgit transaction using government funds.
Williams: Thats what he was asking you to do?
Anwar: Yes
Williams: To bail out his son?
Anwar: Yes. To bail out his son?
Williams: With Mahathir though, in particular, he was your mentor, he was almost like a father to you, politically speaking. How do you feel about what he did today, whatever his motivations were, is there a sense of betrayal? Is there an anger?
Anwar: Yes, but six years have passed and time is a great healer I know .. that he will get on with his life. I think he has suffered enough, I believe he is a very bitter man now. I will exercise of course my right to defend myself from the allegations.. the irresponsible remarks that he made against me. I will not choose to go beyond that.
Williams: That must take a lot. I mean thats an extremely diplomatic and statesman like approach, but six years of your life have been stolen by Mahathir.
Anwar: Yes, as I said I will not forget for the sake of the country for the capacity of people to learn that this corrupt, irresponsible, ruthless oppressive manner must not be allowed to happen again. But what is the point? I have go on. There are so many things we have to do. We have to make sure Malaysia remains a peaceful country, united and why, why, live for the next five to ten years thinking about Mahathir. Hes obsolete, let us forget, and move on. Let us look at this event as a black chapter of our history and move on.
Williams: Abdullah Badawi, what role do you think he played in your release? I know theres talk of the independent judiciary reasserting itself, but clearly in Malaysia under the situation, the Prime Minister has the power to influence that.
Anwar: I did thank Abdullah because it wouldnt have happened if Mahathir was still in power. But I know for a fact that the harassment continue - the judges are, you know, you went a bit too far, I mean, the judiciary, it is very difficult to pull back. And the judiciary there is still the old guard the corrupt members virtually lackeys of the executive are still there.
Williams: What then is your immediate political path? I mean will you go back and head an opposition movement against the government?
Anwar: I am saying that my interest is not participating in politics right now. My interest is national unity, peace, and we have to grapple with this complex issue of terrorism and the way Islam is being demonised. We think that we need to also impress upon the West, particularly the United States, the moment you associate yourself, with an Islamic organisation or group you are deemed to be fanatics and extremists and have a propensity to violence. Now how do you deal with the issue of terrorism and extremism and fanaticism, if you do not engage yourself with credible Moslem groups?
Williams: Just back to your political future, if I may will you keep open the possibility of rejoining the ruling party, UMNO?
Anwar: My commitment is for the reform agenda. My interest right now is not to decide whether or not to rejoin UMNO. I am saying that our agenda is to have a consensus among Malaysians, to forge a more democratic Malaysia, to try to influence both UMNO and the government and the opposition, to try to adjust and behave accordingly as a modern liberal voice in a civilised world.
Williams: So would you be prepared to work with Badawi, in the party, to achieve that?
Anwar: I dont think it is a question of having to work in the party. I should not preclude the emergence of a new consciousness and civil society. It should not, Malaysia is not and should not function as a one party state.
Williams: And if you bump into Mahathir Mohammed back in KL or if he was here now, what would say to him?
Anwar: I would say, hello, I mean no qualms about it. How are you doing? How is your wife and the children and just keep it civil.
Williams: Some people would look at you and find it is quite unbelievable that you could have that grace after what youve gone through.
Anwar: The experience taught me that time is a great healer and I think thats we have to deal with it and we have to look forward, move on, and learn from our past experiences. I just pray hard that this should not recur, that this should not ever happen in this country.
Williams: Anwar Ibrahim thank you very much for talking with us again. I wish you all the best and speedy recovery.
Anwar: Thank You