Transcript
CAMPBELL: East Timor is once again turning on itself. The past few weeks have seen the worst violence since the militia rampages of 1999 but this time its not led by Indonesia, its East Timors own soldiers fighting each other.
A conflict that began as a dispute over army promotions, has unleashed a simmering discontent with the Fretilin led Government. Few have trusted their leaders to resolve the conflict or believe the bland assurances that everything was under control.
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: [Foreign Minister] I am sure that the police did not fire any single shot into defenceless crowd. So it was not that the police or the army were firing at demonstrators, this did not happen.
CAMPBELL: Instead, tens of thousands have fled their homes ready to believe the worst. Four years after independence, this is a nation on a knife-edge, haunted by its past, overwhelmed by its present and fearful of its future.
EAST TIMORESE MAN: We are here because at home there is no security. There was shooting last night in our village so to be safe we came here.
CAMPBELL: The violence that began on April 28th has catapulted East Timor back into the spotlight. Australian warships are now standing by to evacuate expatriates if the conflict worsens, but theres a far wider resentment against the Government than even these protests suggest and its not over this violence, but over what they suffered at the hands of Indonesia.
While the Government struggles to deal with the present, its told its people to forget about getting justice for the past.
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: There is not going to be an international tribunal of any sort. We Timorese also genuinely do not believe that it will serve the purpose of justice and democracy in this country.
FATHER MARTINHO GUSMAO: [Catholic Church] Our leaders try to betray our people and people feel that they are betrayed by our Government.
CAMPBELL: Away from the capital Dili life appears calm, but in towns like Maliana near the Indonesian border, there is little peace in peoples minds. This is one of the countrys most scarred and traumatised communities. In 1999, during a UN sponsored referendum on East Timors future, it bore the brunt of militia violence. The Indonesian army used hired gangs of East Timorese collaborators to intimidate and punish supporters of independence.
GRACILDA SANTOS MARQUES: We tried to escape but there was nowhere to run. The militia were chasing my father. He tripped and fell. The militia, who had their faces covered, grabbed him. They got a machete and stabbed him from behind. They killed him and dragged him away by the legs.
CAMPBELL: Every day these women come to work in the building where their families were slaughtered. Gracilda Santos Marques and her friends are recruits in East Timors new police force but in September 1999 when Indonesia controlled the police station, they had to watch as their families were killed in front of them.
TIMORESE WOMAN: We werent able to do anything because those people had already received authority from above - from the Indonesian Military Police.
CAMPBELL: Today a small monument commemorates this massacre of nearly fifty innocent civilians. It was one of countless atrocities during the quarter-century campaign for independence. Like Gracilda, all the survivors want the killers and the people who commanded them to be brought to justice.
GRACILDA SANTOS MARQUES: I want the world to see that we need an international tribunal set up here in East Timor to bring back criminals who killed our families like animals and disposed of their bodies, which we havent been able to claim. Right now, the criminals are in Indonesia living a good life while we here continue to suffer without our fathers.
CAMPBELL: But despite winning independence, the people are still waiting for justice. To their anger and frustration, their own Government is fighting to stop any war crimes trials.
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: [Independence celebrations May 2002, addressing the crowd] There are many friends among us tonight.
CAMPBELL: Jose Ramos Horta was the public face of Fretilins independence struggle during 24 years in exile.
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: [Independence celebrations May 2002, addressing the crowd] To help our dreams for independence become a reality.
CAMPBELL: Now, as Foreign Minister, hes telling his people theres nothing to be gained by pursuing their tormentors.
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: The priority is to build institutions of this country - the administration, trying to build a semblance of an economy all of that. The fruits of independence are that we are free today. This is a greater act of justice.
CAMPBELL: The gruesome evidence uncovered since independence leaves no doubt that Indonesia directed the militias and that Indonesian commanders took part in torture and murder. Witness testimonies and forensic investigation, much of it by Australian experts, have produced detailed indictments for crimes against humanity.
Former Fretilin guerrilla, Longuinhos Monteiro, is now Chief Prosecutor for East Timors UN sponsored Serious Crimes Unit. Hes in charge of hunting down more than three hundred indicted killers.
LONGUINHOS MONTEIRO: I might say 93% of the suspects is at large.
CAMPBELL: Presumably in Indonesia?
LONGUINHOS MONTEIRO: Yes.
CAMPBELL: Does Indonesia give any cooperation whatsoever?
LONGUINHOS MONTEIRO: Well, so far no.
CAMPBELL: Indonesia has not only refused to hand over its alleged killers, its own trials held under international pressure have been a farce. The few men charged were greeted as heroes by the judges. Only one man has been convicted, the East Timorese militia leader Eurico Guetteres. Not a single Indonesian will be punished.
To your knowledge are any of the indicted war criminals still serving with the Indonesian authorities?
LONGUINHOS MONTEIRO: Most of them yes. Some getting retired but most of them are still there.
CAMPBELL: And some promoted.
LONGUINHOS MONTEIRO: Some yes of course.
CAMPBELL: But even East Timors President, the former resistance leader Xanana Gusmao says East Timor has more important things to do then demand Indonesia hand them over for trial.
PRESIDENT XANANA GUSMAO: What is important right now as a government is how we provide for and take care of the needs of our people who have suffered so that we can become a nation.
CAMPBELL: Whats more, the Government is considering pardoning the war criminals its own courts convicted. Thanks largely to Australian peacekeepers authorities were able to imprison eighty-eight militiamen who hadnt managed to flee across the border with their Indonesian commanders. But the Government says it may soon set them free, even those serving twenty-eight year terms for crimes against humanity.
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: If we are not able to bring to trial the more serious culprits who are in Indonesia, then is it right for us to keep holding on to the small fish?
CAMPBELL: Dont you want them to rot in gaol
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: No.
CAMPBELL:
to pay for their crimes?
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: No, definitely not for one reason. Many of them, most of them are small fish.
CAMPBELL: The unrest of recent weeks has only strengthened the Governments belief that it has bigger fish to fry. The way these latest protests spiralled out of control says much about the fragility and disunity of East Timors new democracy. Nearly six hundred soldiers from the western provinces complained they were being passed over by soldiers from the east, the main centre of resistance to the Indonesian occupation.
Rather than addressing their complaints, the Defence Ministry sacked more than a third of its new army. When they rioted, the Government called out the rest of the army to fight their former comrades but the protest leader, Gastao Salsinha has made clear theyll keep fighting.
GASTAO SALSINHA: [Addressing protestors] We are ready to die to defend justice until our rights have been acknowledged.
CAMPBELL: Despite repeated assurances that the situation has normalised, the conflict has continued to simmer with growing fears of civil war. The last thing the Government wants to risk now is trouble with Indonesia.
PROTESTOR WITH KNIFE: They fired the first shot! Were just defending ourselves. Were ready to die for our country!
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: We have to juggle sensitivities. Whenever we deal with a problem, we have to weigh, you know, every sensitivity. Sometimes we do not do certain things that we should be doing so that we dont upset one group or another. Indonesians you multiply that by one hundred times.
CAMPBELL: But that stance has outraged the Catholic Church, still the most powerful institution outside the Government. More than 95% of East Timorese belong to the Church, which has blended western ceremony with deep-seated animist ritual.
This service in the town of Liqica attracted six thousand worshippers. Coincidentally, it was at the site of one of the worst of the Indonesian-led massacres.
In April 1999, Indonesian police herded thousands into the church telling them theyd be safe. Then they sent in the militias to kill people at random up to sixty people died. The Bishop of Dili, Ricardo da Silva has appealed to UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan for an international court to force Indonesians to trial.
BISHOP RICARDO DA SILVA: It must be done, certainly. How can people life nowadays in this world if the small people continue to be oppressed like that? It is impossible!
CAMPBELL: But East Timor is opposing all calls for UN trials, claiming it would undermine Indonesian efforts to reform its military.
DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: If we claim that we are friends of Indonesia, of the new Indonesia, should we then turn around and call for an international tribunal? Well how stupid would that be?
CAMPBELL: But the Church argues there will never be stability if the past is ignored. Father Martinho Gusmao, no relation to the President, is the church spokesman on peace and justice.
FATHER MARTINHO GUSMAO: The Government talked about amnesty, about the forgiveness, of pardon but they dont want to touch justice. Thats quite unlogical. We have to show even the high class or the low class of people here we are the same under law, under justice. Thats the process. CAMPBELL: By some estimates, up to a sixth of East Timors population died during the Indonesian occupation. Every person lost loved ones, relatives and friends. The UN Security Council demanded trials for the 1999 militia violence but only because for once there were UN observers and international media to record it. For most of the occupation, Indonesia made sure the outside world never witnessed its crimes. This is a very special place for people like us. Its the house where five Australian based journalists were executed by Indonesian soldiers in 1975 as they covered the invasion. Their murders were the start of an occupation that killed more than a hundred thousand people before the militia killings of 1999. This house was later used as a military torture chamber. That seems almost incomprehensible that none of the victims of these documented war crimes have ever had justice and some of their murderers still live openly across the border, just down the road. The main army units that once occupied East Timor are now based in West Timor along with the remnants of the Indonesian-backed militias. Until recently, the border was guarded by Australian peacekeepers. Now with the UN withdrawing all but a skeleton staff of advisers, its lightly defended by a small group of East Timorese border police. Relations are cordial for the moment but the Government claims Indonesia could easily send militias back on another rampage. DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: Our borders will not be peaceful. If our borders are peaceful its because the Indonesian military leadership follow the orders of the leadership in Jakarta not to attempt, not even to think to destabilise East Timor. They could very well do it. If they decide to do it, what would the Security Council do to help us? What would international community do to help us? CAMPBELL: Yet in Maliana, the border town most vulnerable to incursions, many people are prepared to risk Indonesias wrath. Jose Andrade is the Fretilin MP for Maliana. Hes faced a frosty reception over the Governments policy of clemency for war crimes. LOCAL MALIANA MAN: I want to ask Mr Andrade on our behalf to tell an international tribunal what happened to us. As political prisoners we were tortured and intimidated, beaten and given electric shocks. We were promised many things, and went through all this to gain freedom. I urge you to demand that the Indonesian Generals are tried under an international tribunal and I want to see an international tribunal set up here in East Timor. CAMPBELL: Jose Andrade is himself a victim of the violence. In 1999 he was beaten and tortured at this Indonesian Army base on the direct orders of the area commander, Buranhadin Siagian. The beating left him almost dead and blind in one eye. JOSE ANDRADE: They hit me on my neck and my back, and they punched me from the front. They kicked and they punched until I could no longer feel anything. CAMPBELL: The Commander Siagian and his Deputy Sutrisno have both been indicted for crimes against humanity. Their descriptions appear on Interpols wanted site but both continue to serve in the Indonesian Army and both have been promoted. Andrade admits to mixed feelings about his own partys policy. JOSE ANDRADE: Those who committed crimes against individuals, who killed and affected many lives, I can say they should go before an international tribunal. CAMPBELL: The Government counters that even calling for trials could mean an economic blockade. East Timor relies on Indonesia for 80% of its imports and all its oil. DR JOSE RAMO HORTA: Where would be buy? The ten times more expensive goods from Australia? Its great to be brave on what is politically correct, on what might be demagogically correct as well but I as Foreign Minister, my President as President, the Prime Minister as Prime Minister, we have to be a bit more realistic and less heroic. CAMPBELL: But some believe the Governments pragmatism verges on indecency. One of the most wanted war criminals is the Indonesian Army commander Camilo dos Santos, indicted for crimes against humanity including the murder of a Dutch journalist during the Indonesian withdrawal. On a visit to West Timor in 2001, President Gusmao not only met him, he publicly embraced him. He says its all part of moving on from the past. PRESIDENT XANANA GUSMAO: If we look at the individuals with a spirit of vengeance in our hearts and minds it will be a burden to carry. CAMPBELL: Some believe the former resistance has a shared interest with Indonesia in stopping war crimes trials. Public hearings in East Timor also heard testimony of atrocities by Fretilin guerrillas, including execution of political opponents. FATHER MARTINHO GUSMAO: Maybe Fretilin also afraid that they also committed various crimes against poor Indonesian people so it seems that they simply want to close everything. CAMPBELL: The Church has suggested that perhaps your Government is worried that some Fretilin guerrillas could be called before an international tribunal because they have things to answer for. Is that a consideration in opposing an international trial? PRESIDENT XANANA GUSMAO: We Timorese have a moral obligation before judging others. We need first to begin justice within ourselves, before we can judge others. CAMPBELL: In Maliana the women who lost their families have managed to continue with their lives, day after painful day. Teresinha Cardoso helps run a support group for survivors of the massacres. She says she will never give up the fight. TERESINHA CARDOSO: Weve lost everything. Weve lost fathers, weve lost mothers, weve lost children. We wanted a free nation. Now that we have it, we want justice. There has to be justice. We can provide the information but theres no truth, and theres no justice and if theres no justice, were not a free nation. We want justice. Thats all we ask. CAMPBELL: The protesting soldiers have now retreated to the hills around Dili and once again the innocent are sheltering from violence, unsure of who is behind it and with little faith the authorities will protect them. East Timors beleaguered Government insists its hard enough to manage the present but its people are asking what peace there can ever be if theres no justice for the past.
FATHER MARTINHO GUSMAO: The Government talked about amnesty, about the forgiveness, of pardon but they dont want to touch justice. Thats quite unlogical. We have to show even the high class or the low class of people here we are the same under law, under justice. Thats the process. CAMPBELL: By some estimates, up to a sixth of East Timors population died during the Indonesian occupation. Every person lost loved ones, relatives and friends. The UN Security Council demanded trials for the 1999 militia violence but only because for once there were UN observers and international media to record it. For most of the occupation, Indonesia made sure the outside world never witnessed its crimes. This is a very special place for people like us. Its the house where five Australian based journalists were executed by Indonesian soldiers in 1975 as they covered the invasion. Their murders were the start of an occupation that killed more than a hundred thousand people before the militia killings of 1999. This house was later used as a military torture chamber. That seems almost incomprehensible that none of the victims of these documented war crimes have ever had justice and some of their murderers still live openly across the border, just down the road. The main army units that once occupied East Timor are now based in West Timor along with the remnants of the Indonesian-backed militias. Until recently, the border was guarded by Australian peacekeepers. Now with the UN withdrawing all but a skeleton staff of advisers, its lightly defended by a small group of East Timorese border police. Relations are cordial for the moment but the Government claims Indonesia could easily send militias back on another rampage. DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA: Our borders will not be peaceful. If our borders are peaceful its because the Indonesian military leadership follow the orders of the leadership in Jakarta not to attempt, not even to think to destabilise East Timor. They could very well do it. If they decide to do it, what would the Security Council do to help us? What would international community do to help us? CAMPBELL: Yet in Maliana, the border town most vulnerable to incursions, many people are prepared to risk Indonesias wrath. Jose Andrade is the Fretilin MP for Maliana. Hes faced a frosty reception over the Governments policy of clemency for war crimes. LOCAL MALIANA MAN: I want to ask Mr Andrade on our behalf to tell an international tribunal what happened to us. As political prisoners we were tortured and intimidated, beaten and given electric shocks. We were promised many things, and went through all this to gain freedom. I urge you to demand that the Indonesian Generals are tried under an international tribunal and I want to see an international tribunal set up here in East Timor. CAMPBELL: Jose Andrade is himself a victim of the violence. In 1999 he was beaten and tortured at this Indonesian Army base on the direct orders of the area commander, Buranhadin Siagian. The beating left him almost dead and blind in one eye. JOSE ANDRADE: They hit me on my neck and my back, and they punched me from the front. They kicked and they punched until I could no longer feel anything. CAMPBELL: The Commander Siagian and his Deputy Sutrisno have both been indicted for crimes against humanity. Their descriptions appear on Interpols wanted site but both continue to serve in the Indonesian Army and both have been promoted. Andrade admits to mixed feelings about his own partys policy. JOSE ANDRADE: Those who committed crimes against individuals, who killed and affected many lives, I can say they should go before an international tribunal. CAMPBELL: The Government counters that even calling for trials could mean an economic blockade. East Timor relies on Indonesia for 80% of its imports and all its oil. DR JOSE RAMO HORTA: Where would be buy? The ten times more expensive goods from Australia? Its great to be brave on what is politically correct, on what might be demagogically correct as well but I as Foreign Minister, my President as President, the Prime Minister as Prime Minister, we have to be a bit more realistic and less heroic. CAMPBELL: But some believe the Governments pragmatism verges on indecency. One of the most wanted war criminals is the Indonesian Army commander Camilo dos Santos, indicted for crimes against humanity including the murder of a Dutch journalist during the Indonesian withdrawal. On a visit to West Timor in 2001, President Gusmao not only met him, he publicly embraced him. He says its all part of moving on from the past. PRESIDENT XANANA GUSMAO: If we look at the individuals with a spirit of vengeance in our hearts and minds it will be a burden to carry. CAMPBELL: Some believe the former resistance has a shared interest with Indonesia in stopping war crimes trials. Public hearings in East Timor also heard testimony of atrocities by Fretilin guerrillas, including execution of political opponents. FATHER MARTINHO GUSMAO: Maybe Fretilin also afraid that they also committed various crimes against poor Indonesian people so it seems that they simply want to close everything. CAMPBELL: The Church has suggested that perhaps your Government is worried that some Fretilin guerrillas could be called before an international tribunal because they have things to answer for. Is that a consideration in opposing an international trial? PRESIDENT XANANA GUSMAO: We Timorese have a moral obligation before judging others. We need first to begin justice within ourselves, before we can judge others. CAMPBELL: In Maliana the women who lost their families have managed to continue with their lives, day after painful day. Teresinha Cardoso helps run a support group for survivors of the massacres. She says she will never give up the fight. TERESINHA CARDOSO: Weve lost everything. Weve lost fathers, weve lost mothers, weve lost children. We wanted a free nation. Now that we have it, we want justice. There has to be justice. We can provide the information but theres no truth, and theres no justice and if theres no justice, were not a free nation. We want justice. Thats all we ask. CAMPBELL: The protesting soldiers have now retreated to the hills around Dili and once again the innocent are sheltering from violence, unsure of who is behind it and with little faith the authorities will protect them. East Timors beleaguered Government insists its hard enough to manage the present but its people are asking what peace there can ever be if theres no justice for the past.