REPORTER: Ginny Stein
ALI SALEEM: I'm wearing it tonight with a green sari. It has red embroidery and the red stones will sort of go well with it.
Ali Saleem is beginning his transformation.
ALI SALEEM: OK, now you're going to learn my personal shaving technique.
Soon he'll be ready to take centre stage as Begum Nazarwish Ali, the host of the hottest television talk show in Pakistan.
ALI SALEEM: This is the process called threading.
But he won't be appearing as Ali Saleem, rather as his alter ego - a chat show queen with a sharp tongue and a love of fine, sequinned saris. Transforming into a high society dame, or a 'begum' as they are called in Pakistan, takes time. But patience has its rewards.
ALI SALEEM: I am going to be the most talked-about woman in Pakistan. I am just going to be the biggest diva this country has ever produced.
As the begum - a snobby, gossipy, middle-aged woman - he flirts with his guests, asking questions few would dare.
ALI SALEEM: For Pakistani standards, I push the boundaries. I mean, I really push them hard. Because, for Pakistani standards a woman sitting and even remotely flirting with a man on television was never done before our show.
AHMAD ZUBAIR, AAJ STATION MANAGER: The concept was very original, that's what caught our fancy. And it hadn't been done before in this country, at least this part of the world. So we were quite excited about it. Ali is extremely talented. He's been on theatre and television before this show for a number of years, so we were well aware of what he was capable of.
Tonight's guests, a female politician and a male model, won't admit they're nervous, but they both know they'll have to be on their guard.
WAQUAR ALI KHAN, MALE MODEL: Well, you can never be prepared with the Begum. She's a very interesting character. I think she is very spontaneous and very funny and very lethal.
REPORTER: I hear the Begum is a very tough interview, you have to be on your toes?
BUSHRA REHMAN, POLITICIAN: It doesn't matter. If he is tough, I am also rough.
'Late Night With Begum Nazarwish Ali' is broadcast on Aaj TV, Pakistan's third main private channel and one of dozens that have sprung up under liberalised media laws introduced by military ruler Pervez Musharraf.
SAQIB MALIK, INDEPENDENT FILM MAKER: What's happened with the media boom is that all of a sudden you've got all these channels coming up with all kinds of shows that were taboo. Political shows that discuss the army. Shows that criticise the government. Shows that take up social issues. So this is one step in that, only of course it is being conducted by a female impersonator.
ALI SALEEM: Step right in, Bushra Rehman.
First to appear tonight - Bushra Rehman, a feminist writer and government MP, she was true to her word about being no easy target.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): I've been longing for you for such a long time. I have heard a lot about you but only today have I the chance to see you.
BUSHRA REHMAN (Translation): Why today? Why not before?
ALI SALEEM (Translation): It's been my bad luck.
BUSHRA REHMAN (Translation): You talk artificially. Don't be like that with me! Be truthful today.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): Oh my darling. I always talk straight. I don't even know about artificiality.
And then of course don't forget the hard part, I always had a soft corner for you.
Model Waquar Ali Khan was more than happy to flirt back with his lascivious host.
ALI SALEEM: So tell me, where is your wife? Is she here or is she in London?
WAQUAR ALI KHAN: I have to say where were you then? That's what I want to know. You ditched me, how could you do that?
ALI SALEEM: I did not ditch you. I don't even understand - I mean, what was the big hurry, darling? You got married before you lost your milk teeth.
Ali Saleem says a lady can get away with a lot. It just depends on how it's done.
ALI SALEEM: Even when Begum Nazarwish Ali is being bitchy, that she has to be considering the demands of the character, she is doing it in such a sweet way that it never offends anybody. And I guess that's the secret, or the secret of why she is liked so much.
But there are limits to how far charm will take you in Pakistan when you're a cross-dressing TV host.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): Today I have invited an elderly man who belongs to Jamaati Islam. His appearance on my show is of benefit to me, so I won't let him wait for long. I am going to invite him now. Please come in.
About six months ago, the then-mayor of Karachi, Niamatullah Khan, a conservative Islamic party leader agreed to appear on the show.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): Mr Naimat, as mayor of Karachi, you have worked a lot for this city.
On stage as the Begum attempted to woo him, Niamatullah Khan did not appear to be won over.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): I totally agree with you and you we are both wearing white. You, in a white shalwar kameez and myself in a white sari and we both have a little bit of black in our dress.
But he wasn't too bothered when the Begum's own political aspirations surfaced.
ALI SALEEM: I promise you I am very honest, very sincere and very very patriotic. I aspire to become Prime Minister. Please support me.
NAIMATULLAH KHAN, JAMAATI ISLAMI, RELIGIOUS PARTY LEADER: One can't become Prime Minister like this. This is that what has been happening. This is Pakistan's misfortune.
Later, when members of his party complained about his appearance, he claimed he didn't know that the Begum was a man until the moment they first met on stage.
NAIMATULLAH KHAN: I'm swearing by Allah that I did not - I had not seen that program before, I have not heard about that program before. I don't like these things, I don't like these things.
REPORTER: Is it un-Islamic?
NAIMATULLAH KHAN: It's also un-Islamic, yes.
REPORTER: How is it un-Islamic?
NAIMATULLAH KHAN: If God has made you a boy, you should always remain a boy. If God has made you a girl, you should come before the public as a girl.
For all the recriminations he says he's had to suffer, this political player knows the show was a chance to get his message out to the masses.
ALI SALEEM: How come Muslims today have failed in diplomacy? How come Muslims today all around the world Muslims are the most notorious people in the world.
NAIMATULLAH KHAN: Very true, that's very true. I agree with you, we have utterly failed in proving and displaying Islam, we have utterly failed, why? Because we don't have proper leadership.
Well, I am telling you, whoever complained and commented on this, on my going to that program, I asked him and her, "Have you seen that program, complete program?" No. "Please see it." And anybody who has seen the program in total he is full of praise for my comments, for my discussion, for the things I have tried to convey through that channel to the people of Pakistan.
Ali Saleem is no stranger to controversy. He first came to public attention for his take on former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, who now lives in Dubai in self-imposed exile.
ALI SALEEM, AS BENAZIR: those who have done this are patriots and we are expatriates. They have put the mock in democracy.
Ali admires the 2-time Prime Minister. His pitch-perfect portrayal was not total satire but part homage to her.
ALI SALEEM: You know, she was a popular leader, she represented people's aspirations. She spoke about people. She was not a dictator. She was not an army general. She was a beautiful woman, a girl, in a society which was suppressed, oppressed.
Benazir Bhutto still sees herself as a political contender but fears corruption charges she would face if she returned to Pakistan.
INTERVIEWER (Translation): Why did you join politics?
ALI SALEEM, AS BENAZIR (Translation): Because of my hands.
GIRL (Translation): What do you mean by this?
ALI SALEEM, AS BENAZIR (Translation): One day I looked at my hands and realised both were empty.
But however well-meaning this parody, in some quarters it was not appreciated. It took intervention from his father, a former tank commander, to save his son from those in Benazir Bhutto's own party who could not see the humour in what Ali was doing.
SALEEM AHMAD ZAFAR, FATHER OF ALI: I was worried obviously as a father so I took certain measures to see that no harm comes to him.
REPORTER: What sort of measures do you take in Pakistan for that?
SALEEM AHMAD ZAFAR: Well, I spoke to the concerned party leaders and I tried and explained to them that he's merely keeping your leader alive while this leader is away from the country.
REPORTER: This is in his role as Benazir Bhutto?
SALEEM AHMAD ZAFAR: That's right, that's right.
Tonight Ali is watching his show go to air with his friend, fashion designer Sheik Amer Hassan.
SHEIK AMER HASSAN: On all the red carpet moments, it's always I am his date. And not a date as a boyfriend, because when he is Begum Narwazish Ali He's my nephew, he's my favourite nephew.
ALI SALEEM: And Aunty needs to go out with a male escort, right, and he's always so kind, ever so kind really.
REPORTER: What does it mean to be able to come out and be anything different than heterosexual, to be anything other than that?
SALEEM AHMAD ZAFAR: I'm very glad you asked that, because as we all know in Pakistan everyone sort of lives a double life. It's really full of hypocrites. Gay or straight, or whatever, that's not bisexuality. They are just hypocrites. No-one speaks the truth.
In Pakistan, Ali Saleem is remarkable. He is open about his sexuality.
ALI SALEEM: I am not gay, by the way, I'm not. And if you want me to define my sexuality, I am a try-sexual and that's with a Y, you know. I'll try anything that's sexual. I mean, what does it matter man? What does it matter?
For Ali's mother, Ferzana Saleem, this program offers something for everyone.
REPORTER: What do your women friends say about the show?
FERZANA SALEEM, ALIS MOTHER: They like it. They really love him.
REPORTER: And what about men?
FERZANA SALEEM: They enjoy it.
Today Ali Saleem is just being himself. In the port city of Karachi's main market, dressed in daytime dag, not drag, his fans express their admiration for his weekly transformation.
WOMAN: At first actually it was unbelievable to see that Nawazish Ali was really a man. But after we saw him and saw his interviews in the newspaper, it was also difficult to believe it. I was trying to look at his face and see what he looks like - where is his female part coming from? Oh, he is very manly, but he appears very female-ish. His sari especially and his blouses, oh my God!
They also praise his willingness to challenge those who hold real power.
MAN: I with there were more bold people like you.
ALI SALEEM: So what do you do?
MAN: I am into teaching.
ALI SALEEM: Teaching, OK.
MAN: Training and teaching.
ALI SALEEM: That's really nice, and really nice meeting you.
I think, you know, every time people come up to me and say good things to me, you know, I thank my Allah even more for the fact that I have been successful and it's good that they know where I am coming from and they understand me and can sort of appreciate me, really.
Reporter/Camera
GINNY STEIN
Editor
NICK OBRIEN
Translation/Subtitling
KAUSAR JAMAL
Additional footage courtesy of
Ali Saleem as Benazir Bhutto -GEO TV
Producer
AMOS COHEN
ALI SALEEM: I'm wearing it tonight with a green sari. It has red embroidery and the red stones will sort of go well with it.
Ali Saleem is beginning his transformation.
ALI SALEEM: OK, now you're going to learn my personal shaving technique.
Soon he'll be ready to take centre stage as Begum Nazarwish Ali, the host of the hottest television talk show in Pakistan.
ALI SALEEM: This is the process called threading.
But he won't be appearing as Ali Saleem, rather as his alter ego - a chat show queen with a sharp tongue and a love of fine, sequinned saris. Transforming into a high society dame, or a 'begum' as they are called in Pakistan, takes time. But patience has its rewards.
ALI SALEEM: I am going to be the most talked-about woman in Pakistan. I am just going to be the biggest diva this country has ever produced.
As the begum - a snobby, gossipy, middle-aged woman - he flirts with his guests, asking questions few would dare.
ALI SALEEM: For Pakistani standards, I push the boundaries. I mean, I really push them hard. Because, for Pakistani standards a woman sitting and even remotely flirting with a man on television was never done before our show.
AHMAD ZUBAIR, AAJ STATION MANAGER: The concept was very original, that's what caught our fancy. And it hadn't been done before in this country, at least this part of the world. So we were quite excited about it. Ali is extremely talented. He's been on theatre and television before this show for a number of years, so we were well aware of what he was capable of.
Tonight's guests, a female politician and a male model, won't admit they're nervous, but they both know they'll have to be on their guard.
WAQUAR ALI KHAN, MALE MODEL: Well, you can never be prepared with the Begum. She's a very interesting character. I think she is very spontaneous and very funny and very lethal.
REPORTER: I hear the Begum is a very tough interview, you have to be on your toes?
BUSHRA REHMAN, POLITICIAN: It doesn't matter. If he is tough, I am also rough.
'Late Night With Begum Nazarwish Ali' is broadcast on Aaj TV, Pakistan's third main private channel and one of dozens that have sprung up under liberalised media laws introduced by military ruler Pervez Musharraf.
SAQIB MALIK, INDEPENDENT FILM MAKER: What's happened with the media boom is that all of a sudden you've got all these channels coming up with all kinds of shows that were taboo. Political shows that discuss the army. Shows that criticise the government. Shows that take up social issues. So this is one step in that, only of course it is being conducted by a female impersonator.
ALI SALEEM: Step right in, Bushra Rehman.
First to appear tonight - Bushra Rehman, a feminist writer and government MP, she was true to her word about being no easy target.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): I've been longing for you for such a long time. I have heard a lot about you but only today have I the chance to see you.
BUSHRA REHMAN (Translation): Why today? Why not before?
ALI SALEEM (Translation): It's been my bad luck.
BUSHRA REHMAN (Translation): You talk artificially. Don't be like that with me! Be truthful today.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): Oh my darling. I always talk straight. I don't even know about artificiality.
And then of course don't forget the hard part, I always had a soft corner for you.
Model Waquar Ali Khan was more than happy to flirt back with his lascivious host.
ALI SALEEM: So tell me, where is your wife? Is she here or is she in London?
WAQUAR ALI KHAN: I have to say where were you then? That's what I want to know. You ditched me, how could you do that?
ALI SALEEM: I did not ditch you. I don't even understand - I mean, what was the big hurry, darling? You got married before you lost your milk teeth.
Ali Saleem says a lady can get away with a lot. It just depends on how it's done.
ALI SALEEM: Even when Begum Nazarwish Ali is being bitchy, that she has to be considering the demands of the character, she is doing it in such a sweet way that it never offends anybody. And I guess that's the secret, or the secret of why she is liked so much.
But there are limits to how far charm will take you in Pakistan when you're a cross-dressing TV host.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): Today I have invited an elderly man who belongs to Jamaati Islam. His appearance on my show is of benefit to me, so I won't let him wait for long. I am going to invite him now. Please come in.
About six months ago, the then-mayor of Karachi, Niamatullah Khan, a conservative Islamic party leader agreed to appear on the show.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): Mr Naimat, as mayor of Karachi, you have worked a lot for this city.
On stage as the Begum attempted to woo him, Niamatullah Khan did not appear to be won over.
ALI SALEEM (Translation): I totally agree with you and you we are both wearing white. You, in a white shalwar kameez and myself in a white sari and we both have a little bit of black in our dress.
But he wasn't too bothered when the Begum's own political aspirations surfaced.
ALI SALEEM: I promise you I am very honest, very sincere and very very patriotic. I aspire to become Prime Minister. Please support me.
NAIMATULLAH KHAN, JAMAATI ISLAMI, RELIGIOUS PARTY LEADER: One can't become Prime Minister like this. This is that what has been happening. This is Pakistan's misfortune.
Later, when members of his party complained about his appearance, he claimed he didn't know that the Begum was a man until the moment they first met on stage.
NAIMATULLAH KHAN: I'm swearing by Allah that I did not - I had not seen that program before, I have not heard about that program before. I don't like these things, I don't like these things.
REPORTER: Is it un-Islamic?
NAIMATULLAH KHAN: It's also un-Islamic, yes.
REPORTER: How is it un-Islamic?
NAIMATULLAH KHAN: If God has made you a boy, you should always remain a boy. If God has made you a girl, you should come before the public as a girl.
For all the recriminations he says he's had to suffer, this political player knows the show was a chance to get his message out to the masses.
ALI SALEEM: How come Muslims today have failed in diplomacy? How come Muslims today all around the world Muslims are the most notorious people in the world.
NAIMATULLAH KHAN: Very true, that's very true. I agree with you, we have utterly failed in proving and displaying Islam, we have utterly failed, why? Because we don't have proper leadership.
Well, I am telling you, whoever complained and commented on this, on my going to that program, I asked him and her, "Have you seen that program, complete program?" No. "Please see it." And anybody who has seen the program in total he is full of praise for my comments, for my discussion, for the things I have tried to convey through that channel to the people of Pakistan.
Ali Saleem is no stranger to controversy. He first came to public attention for his take on former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, who now lives in Dubai in self-imposed exile.
ALI SALEEM, AS BENAZIR: those who have done this are patriots and we are expatriates. They have put the mock in democracy.
Ali admires the 2-time Prime Minister. His pitch-perfect portrayal was not total satire but part homage to her.
ALI SALEEM: You know, she was a popular leader, she represented people's aspirations. She spoke about people. She was not a dictator. She was not an army general. She was a beautiful woman, a girl, in a society which was suppressed, oppressed.
Benazir Bhutto still sees herself as a political contender but fears corruption charges she would face if she returned to Pakistan.
INTERVIEWER (Translation): Why did you join politics?
ALI SALEEM, AS BENAZIR (Translation): Because of my hands.
GIRL (Translation): What do you mean by this?
ALI SALEEM, AS BENAZIR (Translation): One day I looked at my hands and realised both were empty.
But however well-meaning this parody, in some quarters it was not appreciated. It took intervention from his father, a former tank commander, to save his son from those in Benazir Bhutto's own party who could not see the humour in what Ali was doing.
SALEEM AHMAD ZAFAR, FATHER OF ALI: I was worried obviously as a father so I took certain measures to see that no harm comes to him.
REPORTER: What sort of measures do you take in Pakistan for that?
SALEEM AHMAD ZAFAR: Well, I spoke to the concerned party leaders and I tried and explained to them that he's merely keeping your leader alive while this leader is away from the country.
REPORTER: This is in his role as Benazir Bhutto?
SALEEM AHMAD ZAFAR: That's right, that's right.
Tonight Ali is watching his show go to air with his friend, fashion designer Sheik Amer Hassan.
SHEIK AMER HASSAN: On all the red carpet moments, it's always I am his date. And not a date as a boyfriend, because when he is Begum Narwazish Ali He's my nephew, he's my favourite nephew.
ALI SALEEM: And Aunty needs to go out with a male escort, right, and he's always so kind, ever so kind really.
REPORTER: What does it mean to be able to come out and be anything different than heterosexual, to be anything other than that?
SALEEM AHMAD ZAFAR: I'm very glad you asked that, because as we all know in Pakistan everyone sort of lives a double life. It's really full of hypocrites. Gay or straight, or whatever, that's not bisexuality. They are just hypocrites. No-one speaks the truth.
In Pakistan, Ali Saleem is remarkable. He is open about his sexuality.
ALI SALEEM: I am not gay, by the way, I'm not. And if you want me to define my sexuality, I am a try-sexual and that's with a Y, you know. I'll try anything that's sexual. I mean, what does it matter man? What does it matter?
For Ali's mother, Ferzana Saleem, this program offers something for everyone.
REPORTER: What do your women friends say about the show?
FERZANA SALEEM, ALIS MOTHER: They like it. They really love him.
REPORTER: And what about men?
FERZANA SALEEM: They enjoy it.
Today Ali Saleem is just being himself. In the port city of Karachi's main market, dressed in daytime dag, not drag, his fans express their admiration for his weekly transformation.
WOMAN: At first actually it was unbelievable to see that Nawazish Ali was really a man. But after we saw him and saw his interviews in the newspaper, it was also difficult to believe it. I was trying to look at his face and see what he looks like - where is his female part coming from? Oh, he is very manly, but he appears very female-ish. His sari especially and his blouses, oh my God!
They also praise his willingness to challenge those who hold real power.
MAN: I with there were more bold people like you.
ALI SALEEM: So what do you do?
MAN: I am into teaching.
ALI SALEEM: Teaching, OK.
MAN: Training and teaching.
ALI SALEEM: That's really nice, and really nice meeting you.
I think, you know, every time people come up to me and say good things to me, you know, I thank my Allah even more for the fact that I have been successful and it's good that they know where I am coming from and they understand me and can sort of appreciate me, really.
Reporter/Camera
GINNY STEIN
Editor
NICK OBRIEN
Translation/Subtitling
KAUSAR JAMAL
Additional footage courtesy of
Ali Saleem as Benazir Bhutto -GEO TV
Producer
AMOS COHEN