TIMECODE

SPEAK

SYNC

BB - Benazir Bhutto

SK - Steffen Kretz

02:13

BB:

We had only half an hour to say your goodbyes, but my father said to me at that time: "You know you are so young, and I don't have the right to take your life. This was my life, I made choices in my life."

02:36

BB:

But I said no - I mean it just came out immediately - I said no. And... you know, it makes me sad even now... But I said no, and I held his hand, and I decided to go on.

02:58

Soundbite:

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was hanged to death today at 2 o'clock this morning in Rawalpindi district jail.

03:12

BB:

I remember when I finally walked into the presidential palace with the red carpets and the chandeliers and the turbaned guards standing stiffly at attention, and I went up the elevator and finally walked into the room; I felt the sweetest moment of triumph for all those who had died to bring democracy back to Pakistan

Graphics

Studio

04:09

Most historic events start

by one person making a choice and thus helped to shape

the world as we know it today.

But why this person, exactly?

And how did they decide?

04:28

Benazir Bhutto became an icon for women everywhere when she became the first female leader of a Muslim country.

How did she reach the pinnacle of such a male-dominated society and why is she now living in exile?

This is her story

Map

05:05

Benazir Bhutto was the prime minister of Pakistan, a nation with a population of 150 million  military coups, poverty, and growing fundamentalism.

Today she lives

in the United Arab Emirates.

05:27

SK: You got involved in politics at a fairly early age. When did you realize that politics was your calling?

BB: I always disliked politics, because my father was in politics and he used to leave, and there used to be threats against his life. And as a little girl I would stand in the door waving goodbye with my heart thumping, praying for his safe return. And I used to say that this is not the life I want for myself. But then my father was arrested and sentenced to death, and in my last meeting with him I decided that I had to enter politics myself.

SK: It wasn't up until then that you realized that you had to go into politics?

BB: No, not until the day - not until the last day of his life.

06:20

Benazir Bhutto is from a wealthy family. Her father, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, was a charismatic, successful politician.

He became prime minister of Pakistan in 1973.

.

06:32

Soundbite Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto: So this is my message to the world and to the people of Pakistan. Have faith have confidence in your elected leaders.

06:47

His party, the PPP, is more or less a family firm, and Benazir inherited the party and her father's popularity.

06:58

SK:

You grew up as the daughter of a wealthy family, how would you describe your childhoood home and your upbringing?

BB:

It was a carefree world. My father and mother were very much around us and I felt very secure in my childhood. Something I don't feel once I became an adult, but I used to feel very secure in my childhood, very happy. I was a pampered child of doting parents who used to spoil me with enormous suitcases of presents every time they were abroad. Life was then very different. There used to be big estates in Pakistan, big homes, lots of staff, and I had very little idea of the real life beyond the four walls of my home.

07:54

SK:

I think traditionally the sons in Pakistani families are in focus and the daughters are supposed to stay in the background, was that the case in your family as well?

BB:

I was allowed to speak up at the dinner table because of my father. My father would sit at the head of the table, and I thought this was very normal. But later on when I grew up and went to other people's homes. I realized that no - I went to my friends house, I was shocked to find that when her father and brothers sat down to eat, she didn't. And her mother and her sister sat down to eat the leftovers after the male member had finished eating.

SK: But where did this idea come from, your fathers idea that men and women should be equal?

BB:

My father was a reformer and he wanted to reform society - emancipate society. And I just accepted it. He wanted me to go for education, and my aunts and my mother all said 'please do not send her to University. No man will marry her if you send her to university. Because the ultimate in a woman's life was considered to be a good marriage and women who were the educated were then considered to end up as spinsters. But it was my father who then said, no I want my daughter to have an education.

09:19

SK:

I like to talk a little about what has influenced you as a politician. You studied political science in the United States and in England, and in your autobiography you describe how impressed you were with democracy and with the freedom of choice in these two countries. How has that influenced you?

BB:

I entered a new world when I went to Harvard University as a sixteen-year-old undergraduate. I came from a close society and a dictatorship and I went to America where men and women would walk around in the most casual ways; they were not scared of their teachers! In our country we were all in awe of authority, and they were sitting there criticizing their president, criticizing their policies, criticizing the Vietnam War.

10:32

Soundbite:

Nixon:

Therefore I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow.

10:44

BB:

It was the time of Watergate when president Nixon was being brought down. And I couldn't believe that the people of a country could bring down the most enormous powerful man in the whole world, but they were doing it! So I saw enormous power of the people, and it liberated me - it made me more committed than ever to go back to Pakistan. I had heard my father talk about democracy; I knew my father was involved in politics. But because I had a sheltered upbringing I was not directly involved in his political movement

11:13

Benazir Bhutto returned to Pakistan in 1979.

But ten days later her father was ousted by a military coup. The knife was wielded by the army chief-of-staff, General Zia-ul-Haq.

The General imposed martial law. Benazir's father was imprisoned. The family was under house arrest.

Benazir became her father's

spokesman and his link to his party.

But one early morning in April 1979 Benazir and her mother were taken to Rawalpindi prison.

12:08

BB:

They had taken me for an extra meeting, and because they had taken me for an extra meeting, and I knew they were unkind, I suspected that they were up to no good. And when my father saw that I had got this unexpected meeting with my mother, he said "why have you brought Gum [short for Begum - Benazir's mother] - is it the last meeting?" So I said, "I think so", and then he called the jail superintendent. The jail superintendent said yes, and so we had only half an hour to say your goodbyes, but my father said to me at that time: "You know you are so young, and I don't have the right to take your life. This was my life, I made choices in my life."

And he said, "you have been educated in Oxford and in America, and if you wish, why don't you go and live in London, why don't you go and live in Switzerland? I have left you the means that you can have an independent life of your own. And it might be very difficult for you all to life here in Pakistan, a country where your father has been executed, and where there is a military dictatorship." But I said no - I mean it just came out immediately - I said no. And uh... you know, it makes me sad even now... But I said no, and I held his hand, and I decided to go on.

13:23

Radio soundbite:

A press notice issued today by the ministry of the interior in Islamabad says that following the conviction by the Lahore High Court in the [inaudible] murder case and subsequent rejection of his appeal by the supreme court, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was hanged to death in Rawalpindi district jail at 2 o'clock this morning.

13:47

SK: But of course you must have known the risks of going into politics - especially when you had this conversation with your father. Was that something that you considered at that point?

BB:

I never considered risks. Za, my father used to tell us that the only thing you can be frightened of is fear. You should not have fear. He said, "Whatever will happen, will happen. And victory and defeat is not in our hands. What is in our hands is how we conduct ourselves. We should conduct ourselves with dignity and with self-respect." And that everybody's dignity and self-respect is in their own hands. So we were taught not to fear fear, and we were taught to do what we thought was right.

14:34

Despite international protests her father was hanged for the murder of a political opponent.

 14:41

Soundbite:

Justice must be done and nobody is above the lawaccording to my conviction, whether it is mr. a, mr. B or general Zulfiqar himself.

15:01

15:20

Zia imposed strict political controls and transgressions were punished.

Benazir took over her father's party. She spent the next seven years under house arrest or in England.

15:30

SK:

You were under house arrest, and imprisoned yourself several times, and in your autobiography you give us an insight into the challenges of that period. How did that affect physically and emotionally?

BB:

I lost my hearing in one ear so that loss of hearing is a constant reminder of the days that I spent in prison. I used to have a lot of hair, and I remember that it would just come out into my hands because of the stress of prison life.

So there are physical aspects that are involved in prison, but most of all it's the sense of traumatization - of being away from your family, of being in solitary confinement, of being alive - and yet not really being alive. To be alive you have to 16:41see yourself interact. And I had no interaction - I was not impacting on anybody's life. Not my brothers, sisters, friends, society - I had no impact. So my life was almost irrelevant

In 1986 it seemed that Zia would call the first democratic elections for eleven years.

Benazir Bhutto decided to return to Pakistan.

16:58

(Soundbite Bhutto: )

Sync: I feel extremely calm and extremely at peace with myself. I thought as the time came near I'd start feeling adrenalin flowing through my veins but at the moment I just feel very peaceful.

17:35

19:05

BB:

I had a tremendous welcome when I went back to Pakistan in 1986. I remember taking the plane, and I remember thinking there would be people, but I have never imagined that there would be a sea of people. And the faces of the people so joyful, so welcoming, that I realized that my own suffering had actually symbolized the suffering of a nation. Because under martial law the people had been whip-lashed, they had been imprisoned, tortured, tear-gazed, baton-charged. So it was as though in my a sort of reflection... ordinary people saw the reflection of their own suffering; political, but I would also say social. People who were poor, people who were discriminated, they had a sense of hope. My return was a sense of hope that she is coming back and that we have hope that this military rule will go, and something better will emerge for our country.

SK:

In 1988 you win the general election and you become the first female prime minister of a Muslim nation. And there is this famous photograph of you, and it's captured just as you are driving through cheering crowds in an open Limousine - do you remember this picture? What were your thoughts at that moment?

BB:

Well, I had always thought a woman could become prime minister. I never for one moment - because I thought that men and women were equal - so I had never for one moment thought that a woman could not become prime minister. I had seen in India, in Sri Lanka, in Israel in United Kingdom that women had become prime ministers, and when people would tell me that "no they can't", I would tell them "of course they can". I felt very proud, not for myself but for women in Pakistan, in the Muslim world and indeed all across the world, that we had broken a very important barrier and shown that women could reach the top.

20:37

BB:

I felt the sweetest moment of triumph for all those who had died to bring democracy back to Pakistan. I almost felt as though they were walking with me as I entered. And it was that moment that I had a sense of completion to that in one sense those who had been killed; those who had suffered could finally rest in peace. And that now I was on my own, and now I had to win a people's love and affection. Not as the daughter of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

SK:

But did you think of your father as well?

BB:

Of course. I felt him with me. I felt him walking down those chandeliered halls with me. I felt that his sacrifice had not gone in vain, and nor had the sacrifice of all the other people. There were so many others that lost their lives; they were hanged or they were shot in the streets or they were tortured to death. So I felt really that it was their victory.

21:54

Soundbite, Bush:

This return to democracy under your leadership deserves and has America's profound admiration.

22:09

26:40

BB:

When you became prime minister you were embraced by leaders around the world. I believe George Bush the President of the United States invited you to the White House; prime minister Margaret Thatcher congratulated you and called you courageous. What did the international reaction mean to you?

BB:

It was very important to me to have such a strong support worldwide. It helped me restore Pakistan's image. Pakistan had been known until that time as a military dictatorship. We were respected as an ally for fighting the war in Afghanistan against the Soviets. But we did not have an image of a country. India had an image with its own culture and its own history. We were thought rather backward with a military dictatorships. So that kind of recognition placed Pakistan on the map as a country with a rich history, and an Islamic country which was also a modern country that could elect a woman prime minister

SK:

You became an icon for women around the world, especially of course for women in Muslim countries. Did that give you a sense of responsibility toward these women?

BB:

Tremendous sense of responsibility. I felt that as a woman I could understand the difficulties that other woman faced. I had seen the discrimination in my own society as a young adult. And I was determined to reverse the sanctuaries of discrimination.

 I remember when I used to tour with my father only little boys used to come running after his car. But when I started campaigning little girls would come running after my car, or their father would be holding them around their shoulders; because I was a woman it made it acceptable for them to bring their girls out into the society.

So my example empowered other women to fight for jobs for themselves or to fight for promotions.

SK:
And you felt responsibility towards them?

BB:

Yes I felt a big responsibility towards other women. I always feel that because I'm a woman I should help other women. I feel that as a woman: that women should stand by women, and that woman should help women..

SK:

But at the same time when the Taleban came into power that happened with the financial support of your government in Pakistan, and while you were still prime minister you were one of only three countries in the world to recognize the Taleban government. How does that fit with your strong views on women's rights?

BB:

My issue with the Taleban is a hardly disputed one. There is an outside perception that Pakistan helped finance the return of the Taleban of helped finance the Taleban, and I have always denied it.

SK:

But you did in fact recognize the Taleban as one of the first countries in the world.

BB:

Yes. Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, we did recognize the Taleban, but much later. During the time when I was prime minister of Pakistan Taleban's policies towards women were not to discourage education, but they would negotiate with us to have education. You know, women's right is a very important issue, but at that time the Afghanistan was torn apart from civil war. No aid was coming in. We had a lot of refugees on our soil. They were not going back to their country, and it was our aim to help create an economy in Aghanistan so that people would return to their own homes. And we thought that if we create in economy schools would be built and people would be able to go to school. There were no schools in Afghanistan - even boys couldn't go to school - leave alone girls.

But of course what the Taleban did were wrong, but our focus was that - and remember even the West initially, welcomed the Taleban

SK:

But I don't suppose that anybody could be in doubt as to the Talebans' views regarding women's right. Women were not allowed to work, they were not allowed to educate themselves; they were forced to wear a burka that hid their body. I was just wondering as a strong advocate of women's rights, how could you ever support them?

BB:

I did not support them for what they were doing against women. But with America and Britain and the rest of Europe, we did support the efforts to have some peace and bring an end to the slaughter that was taking place in Afghanistan.

SK:

But knowing now what happened with the Taleban, in hindsight would you have done things differently?

BB:

It's very difficult to talk about what you would have done or what you would not have done. But what I will say is that while I was prime minister of Pakistan Taleban was confined largely to Kandahar and to Herat. They were not all over Afghanistan. And while I was prime minister of Pakistan I must me credited. And at the time when I was prime minister of Pakistan there was no al Qaeda, there was no recruiting training taking place in Afghanistan, no Osama bin Laden declaring war on the West, no act of international terror either on the ships in - the coal ships - or the embassies in Africa. And I should be given credit for that. Because as prime minister of Pakistan I inherited a situation of warfare and bloodshed similar to what the west saw when Yugoslavia broke up; there was slaughter.

SK:

You said before that you felt a sense of responsibility being an icon for women around the world. I was just wondering, you think anybody could feel that you let them down by having this approach to the Taleban?

BB:

Which approach? To have peace? You know, it's the past - let history judge it. It's the past - let history judge it. But there is one thing: that in the end it took a war, and it took the whole world to come and finish the Taleban. I was just one prime minister of one country - with millions of refugees on our soil, no world interest, no food, no jobs, no reconstruction money; nothing.

28:51

SK:

Of course you often emphasize a woman's right to choose, and that for example could be in marriage. I know that you accepted an arranged marriage yourself. Why is that?

BB;

You see there are two types of arranged marriages. There is an arranged marriage where the bride never sees the groom. And on the wedding day her parents bring her in and she sits on the stage, and she has to take her wedding vows with a stranger. That was not my case. In my case I had an arranged marriage technically. But substantially it was like two friends setting up a date between to people and they meet and decide that they like each other and get married. In most cases in the West when you go - one friend will tell another I met this really nice person - I'm setting you up and invite them; here it was our parents.

I received many proposals for marriage; I was not ready to settle down. Finally when my husband proposed my mother and his father and mother introduced us in London. And we met chaperoned, and we went out chaperoned. But we did go out and we did meet each other. And it was only after meeting each other chaperoned by our parents that I decided; yes I liked him enough to spend the rest of my life with him. And then I had six month of engagement because I had the right to change my mind - he had the right to change his mind. And once we were engaged we had an opportunity to meet each other - again chaperoned by family members. So that is what I had. People used to say to me that I had an arranged marriage, and I could never understand.

And then one day one of my friends said, you know what an arranged marriage means, it means you have no choice - you don't choose - that's what an arranged marriage is. And suddenly I woke up to the fact that most people in the west did not understand that is was my choice, that I did meet him. It was just that we were introduced by our parents

And it was not like university where you go to a pub and you meet somebody - or you go to a disco and you meet somebody.

31:26

In 1988 she became prime minister of a country not only poor and backward but riddled with corruption and abuse of power.

31:38

SK: I believe that you've said that corruption is an unavoidable part of the political system in Pakistan in an interview. What do you mean by that?

BB:

There is rampant corruption in Pakistan today. My government tried to end corruption, my government put into place measures to have a transparent and open society where free competition could take place. For example - and I became prime minister of Pakistan in 1988 - people in Pakistan had to wait 20 years to get a telephone line. It was only if they paid a bribe that they could get a telephone line within two months.

SK:

And this goes on in the political system as well?

BB:

Well this happens through the political system because the political people then come to you and say we want so and so pointed in customs. Why do they all want to become customs officers? Because in the old days people could smuggle in goods and say, "I'm bringing in a second hand car", pay a bribe while they were bringing in a highly taxed first hand car

32:37

She, too, was charged with

corruption and abuse of power and her government was dismissed by President Ishaq Khan in 1990.

In 1993 she was returned to power but was again brought

down by corruption charges.

32:54

SK:

Let me get back to the issue as we started of with. As prime minister you were forced to resign in 1996.

BB:

I didn't resign - I was sacked.

SK:

You were sacked - what were the charges?

BB:

The charges were the same against me - the same sheet was read against me as was the charge against Prime Minister Suhrawardy in the 50s. Every single prime minister in Pakistan except for my father has been removed on the same charges.  My father was removed from office and the charge sheet said murder. All the other prime ministers from Mr. Suhrawardy in the 50s right to Mr. Naw az Sharif were all removed on the charges of corruption. So I was removed - not on a Benazir's specific charge. I was removed on a charge that was always used against parliamentary leaders.

SK:

But you said that the corruption was rampant within the political system...

BB:

In don't say that corruption was rampant with the prime minister. I said that corruption was rampant in society - not in my political system.

SK:

But in hindsight could you have done anything to take action against the corruption?

BB:

First of all have a truth and reconciliation commission. Yes, we did do a lot to do against... See, I want to clarify: you think corruption means the prime minister's corruption and the cabinet's corruption, okay?  Let me put you straight: Not a single cabinet member of mine has been convicted! Not a single! When there is a mountain of corruption the smell should be so great and the evidence should be so enormous that people should be tripping over themselves finding corruption. Not a single cabinet minister. Because in a democracy people cannot afford to be corrupt. Because there's questions. Questions by the press, questions by the parliament. But in a dictatorship there is corruption. Where there is Musharraf, a Zia or any of these dictators that have come in a military uniform

34:47

SK: So you say that the charges that the charges against you and your cabinet members are politically motivated, that they are without substance. If so why haven't you fought to clear your name in a Pakistani court room?

BB:

I am fighting. My lawyers present in every single Pakistani court room.

SK:

But you are not present yourself?

BB:

I have got exemption from the judiciary. The judge has the right to give you personal exemption - I have to exemption from the judiciary. But I am fighting. First I was fighting from outside Pakistan. Inside the country, outside the country. Wherever they have made these fabricated and false charges against me I have been fighting, my husband has been fighting, my father in law has been fighting, my brothers in law, my friends, all of us have been fighting! What do are opponents want? They don't want to do politics; they want to keep us legally bound.

35:46

In 1997 the government of Pakistan took her to court in Switzerland.

She and her husband were accused of large-scale money-laundering, and channeling funds

to accounts abroad.

When we met her the Swiss were still investigating.

36:03

SK:

So these court cases are politically motivated. Does that go for the case in Switzerland as well?

BB:

Yes, why the people in Swiss people have been told that I awarded a contract in abuse of my office - I never did. No court in Pakistan has shown it. I have asked the government of Pakistan withdraw it! Let a Pakistani court first decide that I awarded it in an abuse of my office - then go to Switzerland and say here is the proof. But if no Pakistani court for 8 years can find a shred of evidence, to show that it was a wrongfully awarded contract - what is the government of Pakistan doing misleading the Swiss? In fact I think the government is exploiting the Swiss system to settle political scores in Pakistan. And it's wrong to use the judiciaries of foreign countries to settle your own political scores.

SK

But you think your opponents will succeed in destroying your image abroad and at home?

BB:

No, my opponents will not succeed. People who are on defence they can for some time be swayed but not for all times for ultimately the truth always emerges.

37:31

BB:

I live now in Dubai - which is my home in exile. I chose Dubai because it's close to Pakistan, and there is a one-hour time difference. So my day almost begins with Pakistan and almost ends. It's also easy for people from my country - family, friends and supporters to come over. 

SK:

You wish to go back to Pakistan and have the opportunity to be elected prime minister again, what would you do differently if you were given the chance?

BB:

I have an agenda of change to modernize Pakistan. We want to free Pakistan of the threat of terrorism, of militancy, of extremecy, of these factories that produce robots, of hate.

People in my country are committing economic suicide, because they cannot afford to live. I'm worried that some terrorist will go to them and say, don't kill yourself for free. Go and so a suicide bombing and we'll pay you for it. It worries me to see Pakistan's social and economic collapse

SK:

When do you expect to be back?

BB:

I want to go back today.  The reason why I'm hesitant is because I'm concerned I'm going to loose my freedom of movement, and I'm going to loose my freedom of speech because I'll be tied up in all these legal rangels, and they will not let me move, and I feel I will have greater freedom of speech and freedom of movement outside. My second concern is that Pakistan is a very pivotal state. In the war against terror. And I want to avoid the situation a saw happened in the past. In the past general Zia embraced and democracy discarded, because the international community thought this dictator is our friend and these political parties are taking on this dictator. So I want to try and work for an atmosphere where I can convince the international community that the people of Pakistan want democracy, and rather than alienate the democracy's constituency in the country, when the religious is already alienated, work together for a situation where we can have a transition to a full democracy.

39:53

Benazir Bhutto has already made history as the first woman leader

of a Muslim nation and an icon for women everywhere.

And perhaps the final chapter

is yet to be written ...

40:06

SK: When the history books are being written, how would you like to be remembered?

BB: How would I like to be remembered...

As someone who made a difference to her people, particular to women. As someone who were commitet to freedom and human dignity.

40:41

Next week we go to South Africa

to meet Frederik De Klerk, the man who buried Apartheid, and Desmond Tutu, the priest charged with unveiling the truth about its horrors.

The first question for Tutu

is put by Benazir Bhutto ...

41:01

BB:

Bishop Tutu, I recall the important role you played in the establishment of a truth and reconciliation commission in South Africa at a time when apartheid ended and the new government emerged. I wanted to ask you: how close do you think South Africa was to civil war or violence or revenge at he time when you established the truth and reconciliation commission?

Tutu:

Thank you very much. Violence was endemic in our country at that time and most people believed we were going to be overwhelmed by a racial bloodbath. The fact that it did not happen is regarded as a miracle and I think that the truth and reconciliation commission, the extraordinary example of Nelson Mandela, that those who were critical to our findings and the kind of stability and peace that we have today.