01 November 2006

Q. What age were you when you first started drinking?

A. I was quite a late starter when it came to alcohol, probably around 13. The age of consent in the UK is 18. I remember borrowing my mate’s leather trench coat and sneaking into a Christmas disco when I was about 13. But I got hoofed out as many times as I got in at around the age of 13 but that was when I seriously discovered drink.

Q. Were your parents drinkers?

A. Well my dad was an alcoholic, ah my dad is an alcoholic. He’d be boozed seriously when I was a toddler and went in to dry out into a mental institution whereas that he wasn’t posh enough to go into rehab. So yeah he dried out in a mental institution and so there was never any alcohol around the house from the time I was about 13. My mum she liked to drink. So my mum’s a very big drinker but I’ve never seen her drunk. She’s got hollow legs my mum. You know she could polish off the best part of a bottle of whisky and you wouldn’t know she’d had a drink.

Q. Are you like that?

A. I’ve been a what I would term an industrial strength drinker in my time. You know I can tuck it away yeah but I’ve also I think growing up in the record industry it’s always been available, I’ve always been to functions, gigs in the evenings and it’s quite a jolly industry where a drink is taken so yeah I can drink.

Q. Now a lot of the experts say there’s a very strong genetic link to alcoholism or heavy drinking. Do you think that in part might explain your heavy drinking?

A. There’s a genetic link to drinking? … Yes I knew it wasn’t my fault. It’s my dad’s fault isn’t it? Ah look do you know what, that may be the case but I’m not blaming my dad, I’m not blaming my mum. I think I got into a a stage pretty recently where I was drinking to an unhealthy level. That’s no-one’s fault but my own.

Q. What’s an unhealthy level?

A. An unhealthy level for me was three bottles of wine a night plus beers but the occasional short so.

Q. The occasional?

A. Plus the occasional you know mixer drink, gin and tonic or Bacardi or whatever but yeah I could wine since I moved to Australia, wine’s been my downfall really just because it’s so good. Australian - back home the notion of wine is still a fairly snooty bourgeois concept um whereas in Australia, wine is a pretty democratic process. It’s a democratic notion really. You go to any bottle shop and the bloke behind the counter will be able to tell you not only where they come from but you’ll have a chance to go and visit these vineyards as well so I learnt about wine since I moved to Australia mainly from the inside out.

Q. What are you like when you are drunk?

A. I’m not I’d like to think I’m quite a jolly drunk. I certainly never get angry or or aggressive on alcohol like some people do. I just I think my volume control goes and my sense of decorum and taste certainly flows out the window when it comes to humour and just general bonhomie but yeah my the first tell-tale signs that I’m having more than a few is my volume bottom goes and I just turn into the loudest boor in the place.

Q. So this decision to try and stop drinking, what’s brought it on?

A. Do you know, the weirdest thing - an interesting thing about my decision to knock drink on the head was that I know it’s not been good for me and I know alcohol’s not good for me and I’ve known for some time, I’ve known it’s been becoming a problem but I’ve been waiting to hit rock bottom because I think wisdom, perceived wisdom is that you know alcoholics reach that point of clarity if you like where when they’ve reached rock bottom and they’re you know urinating and you know in their own pants and shadow boxing on street corners and can’t hold a job down and that’s not really been the case for me you know, just the shadow boxing. But but I hadn’t reached rock bottom, you know I was keeping my job and my career together, you know I was functioning absolutely you know fine and you know I was even training and and keeping the weight off but I know it’s not really been making me feel terribly fulfilled and I’ve just been getting really really depressed with it frankly. I I think the cumulative effects of years and years of alcohol abuse has just made me feel and look really old and feel depressed basically and I just figured I’d like to try and be a husband and a dad and a friend and a colleague and a celebrity without alcohol.

Q. Now you say that drinking has made you depressed, since you’ve drink or or eased back, has the depression gone?

A. Stopping drinking hasn’t hasn’t diminished my depression fully. I think it’s helped me take the first meaningful steps to get rid of it but I think what really what I’ve learnt is that my alcohol consumption was just masking something a lot deeper really and now it’s out in the open I’m having to confront it but the good news is I feel a lot stronger and more focussed and confronting my demons now.

Q. And what do you think those demons are?

A. Ah what are my demons? I don’t know. Middle age, I think I don’t think I’ll feel any different to any other bloke in their forties in Australia, you know, the pressure of middle age, you see kids getting old, you feel your own mortality. I guess the only difference for me is that you know I am in the public eye and I didn’t grow with it, I wasn’t a child soapie star, you know it tapped me on the shoulder at the age of 40 and I suppose in some ways I’ve you know I’ve been in denial about it, which is bizarre cause I worked with stars all of my life, I worked in the record industry, I convinced myself when I went on television that I could handle everything that I was going to put into place all on my own, but hell the advice I gave to my young starlets but I found it quite tough really and I know I don’t want to make it the sole excuse, but I know after a while I’d walk into a a function or a place and all heads would turn round cause I was on telly and I immediately head for the bar and throw down three drinks really quickly just to power down my emotions and power down my fear really and and that’s not really a healthy state of affairs.

Q. If you’ve had a skinful does that make matters worse, are you scared that you might do something inappropriate?

A. Ahhh no look I’ve been in situations where I’ve had to stand up to people and risk a fist fight and I’ve actually I’m ashamed to admit been in a couple of fist fights in pubs you know over being hassled by people. You know I’m not proud of that. It’s just I don’t know I mean maybe I’d have had just as many punch-ups had I stayed anonymous so it’s hard to tell if ah you know if that’s the reason or not. Look it’s really simple, that’s just the way it is, I’m not going to expect people to change their attitude to people in the public eye, I’m just going to absent myself from pubs when it gets past the witching hour, really that’s the safest thing.

Q. Is it do you find it curious that drinking, particularly in Australia, also in the UK, is so socially acceptable?

A. Drinking in the UK and Australia is not only socially acceptable it’s a badge of honour for young males and I think it’s becoming more so for females as well. You know I think gone are the days when it was just the domain of the young male or the male you know, pubs are opened to females as well, in fact it’s the meeting ground, it’s the mating ground for young adults and alcohol plays a large part of that. Brits have always been pretty good drinkers, I mean … obviously we’re close to Europe in the UK and the drinking habits of the Europeans, it just completely aliens the UK and you’re talking about countries that have had you know bars that have been virtually open all day long. In the UK we have these two tiny little windows when I was just starting to drink which was midday til three in the afternoon and then six o’clock until ten thirty. Those were the only periods of the day we were allowed to drink so what did we do as Poms, just slam down as many as we could to make up for the time when when it wasn’t available to us. You go abroad, go to France or or Italy and those guys you know they just you hardly ever see drunken Italian people.

Q. And what are the good things about having a drink?

A. Oh look good things about having a drink is it’s social lubrication isn’t it. It’s you know if you feel slightly anxious about meeting someone new, you know a first date I think would be absolutely horrendous without a drink. Can you imagine how nervous you’d be. I mean you’d have to be a complete cold fish to turn up on a first date and not feel nervous without you know a couple of snifters.

Q. OK, so you decided to stop drinking. When did you make that decision?

A. I decided to stop drinking about three months ago. I actually stopped drinking about two months ago. It took me a whole month to actually pluck up the courage. I was am probably still am terrified of the idea of never having another drink ... I’m terrified of not standing with my mates at a footy match having a having a beer, I’m terrified of having a dinner party and spending four hours preparing a fantastic dinner and not pouring a glass of wine to go with it and enjoying that.

Q. What’s so terrifying?

A. Well it’s ah because I’m terrified of it because I enjoy it, I actually really do enjoy the social aspect of drinking. I enjoy the taste now. I don’t think I did when I was a kid, it was an acquired taste, but I actually do enjoy the taste now and and I enjoy changing my personality as well. I don’t you know I like the fact it changes who I am to a certain extent.

Q. How does it change you?

A. It changes me because I just become you know jolly and of course the funniest bloke at the party in my opinion obviously but you know a shocking bore to everyone else but I do like getting drunk. I think at times as well I’ve really enjoyed the idea of oblivion. I’ve always enjoyed the idea of not one more drink, but one more bottle of wine and I’ve really enjoyed the fantastic tales that blokes tell about not being able to remember getting home and what shocking things you did. It’s not terribly PC to admit that but I do I enjoy that laddishness really. I enjoy the male bonding of getting pissed basically.

Q. Now what’s the downside then?

A. The downside is the next day. Actually there’s another downside. The downside is I think being around kids. One thing I don’t feel good about is trying to justify to myself I’m this you know living this fabulous north shore existence where we all have dinner parties or lunch parties and where the kids come round with the families and everyone sits around drinking you know Chianti and eating fabulous Italian dishes but we do get pissed in front of our kids and that’s not something I’m terribly proud of and also just serving them up the dregs of myself the next day with a hangover’s not great and I think I’m a bit shocked by it, the thought of how much time quality time so to speak I’ve missed with my kids cause I’ve either been drunk or recovering from a bender.

Q. Your partner Mel says you’re more present when you’re not drinking. Is that fair?

A. I’m so much better for the family when I’m not drinking. I’ve just discovered how much work it takes to actually run a household which is I’m not I’m not proud to admit that but there’s so much stuff I just ignored, it doesn’t even register for me. I’ll walk past stuff that need you know that needs tidying up, stuff that needs taking upstairs, stuff that could be put into the washing basket. When I’m drinking, I’ll just walk past it. It doesn’t exist. And I’ve just started waking up to myself, to my surroundings and to other people’s feelings really... I just I think I’m absolutely convinced I’m a lot more considerate when I’m away from alcohol than when I’m drinking.

Q. Mel says that she thought a lot of the heavy drinking was about numbing your feelings. What would she mean by that do you think?

A. I think I’ve always enjoyed drinking socially. I think Mel’s alluded to the fact that since I’ve been on television I’ve used it more as a social anaesthetic rather than a social lubricant and I think that’s true. You know it’s a fair point. I’ve started drinking to numb some fears and look it’s you know I’m not trying to be a big girl’s blouse about it but you know being on television and being well known you know does present it’s own little demons. It doesn’t if you’re stupid but I’m very clever so I know that these things don’t last forever so maybe I’m just over-thinking a bit too much but the way I try not to over-think it or the way I have tried not to over-think it is to lose myself in a few fine bottles.

Q. Now Mel still has a drink at home?

A. Yeah Mel has a drink. I don’t really I don’t see why my inability to be moderate with alcohol should affect her enjoyment of a drink and also look that’s one of the marvellous upsides of not taking a drink is when you realise you’re over the worst of it and the smugness sets in. Oh I do smug so well at dinner parties now when everyone else is reeling around on you know and there’s about 15 dead soldiers sitting there in the crate you know and then I can be super-smug.

Q. Do you also find at dinner parties if you’re not having a drink they’re a little bit hard to relax? Your mate Wayne says that you’re a little bit more uptight, you’re not as natural, that you have to force some of your humour when you’re not having a drink. Is that fair?

A. Um yeah my mate Wayne’s pointed out that um I’m I’m not really as much fun when I’m I’m not drinking and he’s probably he’s probably got a point. I think that’s a big thing that was a big thing for me. I think I was absolutely terrified that alcohol was such a big part of who I was that if I stopped drinking I’d lose my friends and that’s been that has proved you know a bit of a peril. I’ve got a close friend my mate, Wayne, we’re drinking buddies and we’ve been to some of the best you know sporting events in the world, we’ve been to Japan to the World Cup, we’ve been to the you know t-t-the the Australian Open, we’ve you know the grand final and alcohol’s always played such a big part of that enjoyment and I have been a bit worried that you know I’d find that I’m only interesting to other people because of what a good drinking I am and vice versa.

Q. Wayne is terrified I think of the idea of you never having a drink again or not going out and having some of those big lunches and fun times that you’ve had. Do you understand how he feels?

A. I know what sort of a non-drinker I’m going to become. The jury’s still out. I don’t know, I’m just ah … like the 12 step program, I’m taking this a day at a time. Or more accurately I’m taking it a week at a time. I am perceiving my non-drinking at the moment in week long increments.

Q. Now you’re wife, Mel, says it’s all or nothing with you.

A. Yeah, do you know what in the seven weeks I had off I felt great and there were times when I was preparing a meal and I poured my wife a glass of wine and I thought I could really just have a glass of wine now but I knew at that second that I even hinted at the idea of having a drink, it wasn’t a glass of wine, it was three or four bottles and I think that’s the problem with me. I drink with an on switch or an off switch and at the moment the switches are off but when it’s on, it’s on for young and old and that’s it. I either drink heavily or I don’t drink at all and that happened. When I fell off the wagon and decided to have a week on the booze again, I didn’t drink moderately, I drunk as I always drink which is heavily and at times to oblivion.

Q. Do you black out? Do you remember what happens?

A. Yeah I can normally remember what happens. Sometimes I wished I hadn’t remembered what had happened when I’ve let myself down but but no I can always generally remember what’s happened.

Q. What’s some of the worst things you’ve done when you’ve had too much to drink?

A. Me and my wife, Mel are pretty expressive and we have some rip-roaring rows, um I’ve always I’ve shouted at the neighbours before now as well, I’m sorry about that guys, I’ll try not to do that again.

Q. Why did you shout at the neighbours?

A. I’m not going to go into why I shouted at the neighbours, I just did alright. You’re enough to turn me to drink you are. I’ve got into quarrels with people, I just find myself sometimes being the sort of boorish idiot that I sometimes complain about accosting me in pubs, I become that person and you know at that point I think I wake up the next day and I feel like such a hypocrite as well so yeah it’s clear to say that while a jolly drunk it’s not me at my best when I’m drunk.

Q. Now someone else I spoke to said once the booze started taking more from him than it gave him, he decided to give it a miss for a while. Is that sort of where you’re at?

A. Mmm. I see I find it really hard to to look down my nose at booze and to demonise it too much because I’ve had so many fond memories and so many great nights out and so many holidays away that alcohol has been such a big part of it and I can’t it’s pointless for me to deny that because you know I’ve had great times on alcohol and who knows I may well do it again and look I guess if some people need to demonise the thing to walk away from it, then then that’s their thing. I can’t do that cause I’ve had too many great times on it.

Q. Wayne doesn’t think you have a problem with alcohol and he says if you have a problem, he does too.

A. Wayne doesn’t think I have a problem with alcohol. Then why did he say if I if I’ve got a problem, he does too. Wayne? Come and join me on the wagon mate. Look you know what, people handle it different. I don’t think you can measure an alcohol problem with units. I mean that’s always made me laugh. Go to the doctors and there’s always that really embarrassing moment where the doctor says so Mr Dickson, how many units do you take a week and then you go well what’s a unit knowing full well … units of alcohol medically speaking is a pitiful small you know tot, isn’t it and so you know you actually tell him the truth minus about four bottles and they’re still shocked by it. But I don’t think you can measure alcohol like that. I think everyone’s tolerance is different - I mean I know people who are two pint screamers but others who, like my mum, as I said who can just drink and drink and drink and you wouldn’t know it, you absolutely wouldn’t know it. So from a social point of view, some people are shocking on a few drinks and others are you know can absolutely keep it together. It’s nothing to do with the amount I’ve been drinking. I just decided that my life and my soul in many ways was just getting grubbier and grubbier with alcohol and I fancied just giving my life and my soul a bit of a clean up.

Q. And it may be temporary and it may be more permanent?

A. I doubt very much if it’s a permanent abstinence but I’d like to think that I’ve found a blue-print for keeping it in control and for claiming back parts of my life that were lost by alcohol.

Q. Is part of your concern that your father had a very big battle with alcohol as well? Are you worried about becoming your father?

A. Look everyone’s worried about becoming their parents and when your dad was an industrial strength piss-head then yeah I’m really scared of becoming that incapable, that selfish and self-indulgent. I don’t want to, no-one wants to end up like their parents and and I don’t either. I don’t want to end up a shabby deluded alcoholic.

Q. You mentioned earlier when I spoke to you last week that you wouldn’t consider going to something like Alcoholics Anonymous. Why is that?

A. Look I’m a coward and an egotistical coward and it was put to me by someone that I should go and seek help and go to an AA meeting. A couple of things stopped me from going to an AA meeting: one, as I said before I didn’t feel like I’d hit rock-bottom. I mean some in some way I felt like a bit of a charlatan. I didn’t want to turn up and and feel like you know oh I had my training wheels in terms of alcoholism. I didn’t want to I didn’t and I’m sure it’s not you know there’s not a performance anxiety that people feel when they go to AA feeling oh what why am I here, you know I don’t drink anywhere near as much as that man who’s just weed himself over there. So I’m sure there’s that’s stupid but no I didn’t I didn’t I hadn’t hit rock bottom so I didn’t think I should go to AA. The other thing was I’m in the public eye and I just felt too self-conscious. I felt ashamed to go and and sit in a room full of people which is strange cause I’m talking on television but the idea of sitting in a circle with a bunch of people coming clean on my inadequacies just just felt like something I couldn’t face.

Q. Is part of that too that you’d have to then concede whether it’s true or not if you were going to AA that you were in fact an alcoholic?

A. Well there’s I’m sure you know you get a big stamp on you don’t you when you go to AA, oh he’s AA, yes yes oh he’s AA, he’s a recovering alcoholic, oh you know he slipped off the wagon. I don’t know, I just yeah I just.

Q. You don’t consider yourself an alcoholic though do you?

A. No I don’t know if I consider myself an alcoholic. Yeah I guess time will tell, the jury’s still out on that one. I think AA from what I’ve seen has been around for quite some time and being doing some stirling work but I think it’s a bit out-moded. I think that you know far more of a measured approach to people’s abuse is wanted these days. I mean you know I’m not the sort of person that can never say never. I don’t know what life in holds instore for me and there’s something about AA that seems to deal in absolutes which is not part of my life. You know absolutes have never been apart from the piss-head I turn into you know at times. No absolutes have never been that big a part of my life for me to just say right that’s it, never again. It just you know I just want to take a few steps towards controlling my life again. But I just couldn’t sit in a circle with people and like some you know ah ah i-it was it would have felt too much like a cliché frankly. I just couldn’t have done that so I thought I’d do it on my own.

Q. Have you sought any professional help at all?

A. Well look it helped, I went to I was encouraged to go and see a psychologist, clinical psychologist, by a friend who said and this was for other reasons and it really helped because she said to me look it would be useful if you stopped drinking. ... I said I drink a lot and she said well it would be useful if you stopped drinking while you’re seeing me.

Q. Is that for the depression?

A. Yeah just so that she said look I can gauge exactly how you’re feeling a lot better and so can you and can cut to the chase far quicker if you’re not drinking and that to me seemed like perfectly reasonable rational argument and that seemed to click with me and I immediately stopped…

Q. What’s your greatest fears if you continue to drink?

A. Ah my greatest fear with regard to alcohol is just missing out on the kids, missing out on some golden moments, just not being fully conscious and and worse of all, just not being there for them, being this person that they don’t feel they can come to. I mean my girls are teenagers now and getting to that tricky age and I’d hate... it’s hard enough anyway to maintain that you know that real close relationship because teenage girls go nuts don’t they you know for a few years and then they come back to the planet but I would hate even within that space of time for alcohol to come between me being a good father and not that’s my greatest fear is that I wouldn’t be there for the girls when they needed me.

Q. How do your daughters feel about you stopping drinking?

A. Oh look how do they feel about me giving up? I think I think my girls have really enjoyed me being sober. I think they’ve I know I’ve enjoyed them a whole lot more and I think they’ve I think they’ve enjoyed that I’ve spent more time with them because I’ve not been drinking, I’ve been able to derive them to more things and I’ve taken on the the driver role and of course spend more time chatting and and then when they come in from that I’m you know not a slobbering mess I’ll be able to ask them how it went and it’s just you know I just find myself interacting with my kids a lot more consciously and lovingly when I’m not drinking and I think they’ve responded well to that. I think they they acknowledge that.

Q. And what about Mel?

A. Oh listen Mel always says when I’ve stopped drinking that she’s got a new husband. She’s got this bright shiny character around the house who’s far more loving, far more considerate, far more awake and conscious and also she says the sex is better as well.

Q. You must be pretty proud of yourself?

A. No I’m not proud of myself. How can I be proud of the fact that I’ve spent most of my adult life pissed as a fart. I can’t be proud of that but at the same time I can’t change it either. I can’t change the past, I can only change the way I’m living my life now and if you know I’ve done drunk, I want to try sober for a bit.

Q. Why did you agree to do this program?

A. I agreed to do this program and to talk to you because I’m not ashamed of it, I’m not ashamed of of having been drunk, I’m not ashamed of trying to do something about it now and I’m absolutely certain that there’s a lot of people out there with with alcohol problems that they just don’t know about. I’m sure people are drinking far too much and and wasting their lives and missing out on so much cause they’re getting drunk all the time like I was so I’m I’m not here under any didactic reasons, I’m not trying to teach the world not to drink because I would never say never, but ah at the same time I’m just not ashamed of of who I am and the way I am.

Interview Update: 6 February 2007

Q. What happened over Christmas?

A. Christmas was just a big booze-fest. I feared it was going to be but it was actually a lot heavier going. It was industrial strength drinking. My friend Martin came over and we had heaps and heaps of fun. Looking back on it we had some fantastic times, we got up to all sorts of mayhem. We came home from parties in wheelie bins; smashed my head up; smashed my knee up; bruises all over the place really; and all alcohol related injuries. So I don’t know why I’m laughing but I did have a great time. The problem was over three to four weeks I felt like I was wading through bloody custard. It just it just became kryptonite, it just sucks me of my energy. I felt like I was running a marathon in many ways … oh I enjoyed having him here but I couldn’t wait for him to leave so I could get off the booze.

Q. And how does it make you feel the next day?

A. Look I don’t suffer from hangovers. When I’m on big extended boozy binges I don’t suffer from hangovers cause I don’t allow myself to get sober for long enough. I generally start drinking at lunch time again, so at the very least. The most of a hangover you’re going to get is two hours, then get on the ‘hair of the dog’ and whoo whoo you’re off again.

Q. Well last year you said the jury was out as to whether you’re an alcoholic or not, what’s the verdict?

A. Am I an alcoholic or not? Yes, I think I am an alcoholic. I don’t think I’m any more of an alcoholic than a lot of my friends ... But I think I have to face facts that life has a lot of challenges that I find it hard to face sober. And at the end of the day I like getting drunk, I have to admit it, I actually do like getting on it.

Q. So what’s your plan for sort of trying to get keep it in check?

A. Since Christmas I’m finding it hard to establish a plan for drinking, and I’ve got the flu now, which is the only thing that’s actually driven me to give up for a couple of days, it’s being sick. So that’s a good few days of respite. I think what it’s going to have to be is, I need to find a reason not to drink. I certainly don’t need a reason to drink because I just seem to do it naturally.

Q. So what’s the message for others in your story?

A. I don’t want to preach about alcohol, but if I did have one message about boozin’ to Australia it’s be honest with yourself. I think a lot more people are living under the kosh of booze than they are prepared to recognise. And it’s actually quite liberating when you understand that because you realise there’s lots of people in the same boat. You don’t have to be sittin’ on a street corner urinating into your trousers and shadow boxing to be a drunk. I’m living proof.

Q. What are the fundamentals of Smart Recovery?

A. Smart recovery is based on a four point programme – building motivation so maintaining motivation, coping with urges, problem solving and getting a lifestyle balance back so getting the participants to re-acquaint themselves with their previous happy life The aim of the Smart Recovery Group is abstinence based but not everybody is abstinent that comes to the group. Some people are still drinking when they come along but their aim needs to be, their goal needs to be abstinence but they need to learn some skills to get there.

Q. What percentage of your clients can successfully control drink?

A. I’d say the majority can’t control their drinking if they’ve had a drinking problem in the past.

Q. How often do people have to attend Smart Recovery?

A. Smart Recovery, we recommend people come once a week is usually enough for people because it’s a very practical based group so we’re teaching people skills so they really need to go to live their skills, practice them, then they come back the following week, let us know how they’ve gone, if they’ve had a drink during the week we would go over what led up to their drinking, what tools could they have used and if the same situation happened again what they’d do next time around. So if they’re really following the programme, become abstinent, use all the tools available, after about eighteen months it really should be enough for them but part of their self management on the other hand is that if they leave the group a few months down the track feel very fragile again and part of the self management is to get themselves back to the group as soon as possible.

Q. And at the Smart Recovery Programme, do you actually label people alcoholics?

A. No it’s not part of the Smart Recovery philosophy. We don’t label people alcoholics or addicts because we’ve found that people can’t then move … and feel as though they’re stuck in that role … some people like to be called alcoholics. That’s fine… at the end of the day they still have to manage their drinking problem.

Q. How is the Smart Recovery programme difference from say Alcoholics Anonymous?

A. Well … we’re an interactive group so people are challenging each other all the time. We have a Smart Recovery manual that people can learn skills and tools on how to become and remain abstinent. Lots of exercises in the manual as well and we’re not a twelve step programme. We don’t have a higher being however is someone is religious or spiritual in Smart Recovery then we encourage that if that’s going to help them.

Q. When you mention ‘higher being’ what are you referring to? With Alcoholics Anonymous there’s a spiritual entity to the programme. Why don’t you encourage that at Smart?

A. Because Smart is self management, then we believe that people do have the power, they are powerful and they have the power to control their drinking. For many people they just don’t have the skills or the know how and our aim is to teach the participants the skills.

Q. What type of skills do you teach them?

A. Well one of the tools we use all the time is for example the cost benefit analysis so it’s teaching people to weigh up the pros and cons, not just of their drinking but every single thing that they do in their life that may lead to their drinking. For example they might have an argument with their partner, is it worth having the argument if they’re going to get so stressed by the end of the day they have to have a drink to calm themselves down? So they get into that way of thinking.

Q. Now Four Corners has spoken to Phil Meese who’s been recovering the Smart Recovery Programme now for about nine weeks.

A. Yes.

Q. What stage is Philip in his recovery?

A. Well I think first of all it’s fantastic that Phil has actually gone nine or ten weeks um sober because that’s probably the first time in ages that he’s ever had that length of sobriety and he’s learning the skills so if he continues to practice those skills on a daily basis, his outlook is very good.

Q. Phil Meese says Smart has given him strategies for coping with his addictions. What, what is he referring to?

A. It would be things around his coping mechanisms, his emotions and his beliefs. And his thinking basically so he’s starting to change the way he thinks about things, his irrational beliefs. Things like that if he goes to a party on Saturday night he doesn’t have to drink. It maybe be a bit awkward not drinking but he doesn’t have to so it’s quite a difference in his thinking.

Q. Does Smart encourage people like Phil while they’re trying to abstain from alcohol to sort of avoid their heavy drinking friends?

A. For some people they have to. It’s just too much of a trigger for them. It’s a very high risk situation for them to be surrounded by drinking people and it’s also very difficult for some people to actually say no, I don’t want to drink because they’ve always said yes I will have a drink so that for example is a skill that they need to learn how to say no and feel comfortable in saying no they don’t want to drink anymore.

Q. If Phil relapses, what does this mean in terms of his recovery?

A. In Smart Recovery if people relapse we use that, or not even relapse but lapse or slip up, we use that as a learning exercise. What happened? What led up to them having a lapse what could they do differently [interference] repeat the same mistake again but it’s certainly not, a lapse doesn’t have to go into a full on relapse.

Q. Do people have to hit rock bottom before they attend Smart?

A. No, no and you don’t want people to hit rock bottom and rock bottom is a different place for every person. There’s no two rock bottoms the same. For some people it might be that they lose their job. For some people it might be having a psychiatric break down. It’s different for different people.

Q. At what stage does Smart encourage people to come and attend their meetings?

A. Ideally I think a treatment programme wants people to come as early as possible - for some people that’s just not possible, it just doesn’t happen but we accept people in Smart at any level that they’re at.

Q. Some of the people I’ve spoken to just can’t bear the thought of never having another drink. They think life will be boring or be just the same. What do you say to those people?

A. Well it’s a true thought, it’s a true feeling. People do feel that way but you need to get them to look at what are the negative consequences of those things and what other things in life are there for them and for some people they need to rediscover what they enjoy doing because their whole lives have been, or certainly the last few years have been taken up with drinking and have either lost a lot of friends, lost their pleasurable activities so they need to re find those things.

Q. Does Smart regard alcohol abuse as a disease?

A. Well it’s more that we look at it, we don’t use the disease model, more that it’s maladaptive behaviour.

Q. What is an alcoholic, what’s the definition?

A. A rough and ready definition is drinking, having problems and drinking anyway.

Q. What’s the recommended safe level of drinking?

A. The National Health and Medical Research Council has been pretty clear on that and it’s four for men and two for women, and not every day. And so on a regular basis no more than four standard drinks for men, no more than two standard drinks for women on average every day and no more than six on any drinking occasion. So that’s the 2,4,6 rule.

Q. And how many Australians, adult Australians, do you think actually abide by that?

A. The vast majority abide by that, and so that’s the good news. The good news is that there is a significant force towards healthy drinking in Australia and probably 70 to 80 per cent of of Australians abide by that. But there is quite a significant minority, five per cent that are alcohol dependent, another 15 or 20 per cent who just drink too much.

Q. Can you talk about how every year alcoholism contributes to 4000 Australians deaths and 70,000 hospitalisations?

A. So alcohol is a toxic agent that gets into virtually every cell in the body because it’s fully mixed with the water of our body, and so the way I explain it nowadays is that if you drink a lot it’s like a corrosive that affects any part of you that’s not chrome plated. So your liver isn’t 100 per cent…. If it’s your brain that’s not quite resistant to alcohol then you get brain damage. You can damage your brain … every single cell in your body … So as a result of that it’s not surprising that 4000 people die. When different estimates of the number of alcohol dependent people in Australia are as high as five or 600,000 well then to say that only one per cent or less of them die every year as a result of it isn’t all that striking. And so it’s a it’s a commonly used seriously toxic agent. Yes, people are dropping like flies. They die of accidents and things that are associated with intoxication and they die as a result of long term exposure to a toxic agent.

Q. What causes alcoholism?

A. Alcoholism is a classic psychiatric disease. It’s got both environmental and genetic causes. So the way you think is relevant, your society is relevant. We use the term bio-psychosocial, so that the body, the mind and the society all contribute to the development of every alcoholic.

Q. How can you treat alcoholism?

A. Again when it’s a complex bio-psychosocial disorder you try to attack on as many fronts as you can. So if people have got diagnosable conditions that might be treatable with a medication, you go for that. People, depression and anxiety commonly are associated with alcohol dependence, they can be treated with medications. In the short term there are agents that can help as well, medications like an Acamprosate and Naltrexone available on the open market in Australia today and are well shown to be effective. There’s a variety of psychological treatments that have been shown to be helpful.

Q. What percentage of your patients would you actually recommend say Campral to?

A. I recommend it to less than probably I should. I think that the vast majority of alcoholics who are in treatment should be on those agents, not because they’re the cure of alcoholism but because they’ve been shown beyond all doubt to improve outcome. Not to improve outcome like black and white, but to move it in the right direction.

Q. So do they actually stop the cravings or diminish the cravings?

A. They diminish the cravings. The the useful metaphor is that in animal studies when when rats press a lever, and press it up to 50 times for one drop of beer, when they do that and they take these drugs it diminishes the number of times they’ll press by about half. So it diminishes rather than eradicates the drive to drink.

Q. Does the treatment for alcohol abuse need to be individualised?

A. All treatment needs to be individualised, of course, but at the same time all treatment needs to be standardised. So there are boundaries within which you individualise and so when one person is prepared to do x, y and zed, well then that’s good, but if zed is ineffective well then you don’t do zed, you just do x and y. If they’re not prepared to do u and v that are really helpful you work with them to try to say well you could always u and v, but they they concentrate on x and y, it’s like fine let’s do that for now.

Q. Do you ever recommend that patients go to Alcoholics Anonymous?

A. I try to get most of my patients to go to AA.

Q. Why?

A. AA is, I am absolutely convinced that AA helps people. There are two million members worldwide, the number of scientific studies that have been done that associate good outcome with AA attendance is legion. So there’s 20, 30, 50 studies that have shown that you’re more likely to recover if you go to AA, then people get caught up in cause and effect, and argue about that, but the evidence is pretty strong, not unimpeachable, but pretty strong. Amongst my patients the ones who have the best recoveries, nearly all of them go to AA.

Q. Do you have to hit rock bottom before you go to AA?

A. Yes. But what’s rock bottom? Okay. So rock bottom for one person might be that they turned up drunk for their son’s prize giving, okay, but for another person it might be their fifth rehab. So people need to admit defeat to be able to accept external input. To be able to say that some guy who is a drunk and who’s been going to AA for five years and he’s sober, knows more than I do when I’m an engineer with a degree or I’ve been on TV or something like that is a hard thing to do. And so it’s about admitting that you’ve been beaten by the booze. And if people don’t do that, that’s what rock bottom is, just admitting defeat. If people can’t admit defeat well then it’s it’s very difficult for them to use, almost impossible for them to use AA, and it’s difficult for them even to use clinical services. But the clinical arrangement is a little bit different; I’m sick but I’m still in control of my life. And so sometimes patients are able to present to me and say help me, but don’t change my life, and that can be very difficult.

Q. Some people I’ve spoken to have said look I don’t want to go to Alcoholics Anonymous because I don’t consider myself to be an alcoholic … I don’t like that label.

A. Yes, yes. Well yes they haven’t admitted defeat. They’re saying, a lot of them are saying well I’d like another shot at it, I’d like another go. If I just take three months off or six months off or 12 months off maybe then I’ll be able to control it and I’ll be okay. And so AA themselves in their literature say it’s for people who’ve given up, who’ve tried to control it enough times and they say I can’t anymore, I’ll go to AA. Ah and in the clinical arena it’s it’s not uncommon for people to present and say ooh, I’m not quite sure. And that’s my job to work with them to help them to become sure. Not all of my patients need to stop absolutely.

Q. What percentage do?

A. Oh 98 per cent.

Q. And those two per cent that don’t?

A. They have much less damage to them, they’ve got much more robust lives, they’ve got many more things going for them and they haven’t repeatedly proven that they can’t control their drinking. The vast majority of patients by the time that see to me, they come and see me, they have amply demonstrated their incapacity to control their drinking; they’ve earned the diagnosis of alcohol dependence and the best outcomes for alcohol dependents are achieved by abstinence.

Q. Forever?

A. Yes.

Q. Two of the people we’ve interviewed just can’t bear the thought of never having another drink.

A. Yes. This is the tragic irony of alcohol dependence, it’s only the people who really truly love it who have to stop.

Q. The 12 steps are a feature of Alcoholics Anonymous.

A. Yes.

Q. In a nutshell, what are they?

A. In a nutshell they are a process by which you admit defeat, accept some external authority, invite that external authority into your life, re-evaluate your life, do something about fixing it up and then help others.

Q. What are the other alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous?

A. Okay. In Australia there’s not a lot. Recently started up there’s the Smart Recovery Group, and I’m impressed that it’s grown fairly rapidly in Sydney. There’ve been other minor things but they haven’t seemed to stick in Sydney that I’m aware of. There’s a variety of clinical interventions, you know counsellors, there are psychiatrists, psychologists, and some group processes that happen. But the the vast majority of informed clinicians make sure their patients know about AA, because where else can you go on a Friday night and slap a lot of other alcoholics on the back and tell a bunch of alcoholic stories and not drink?

Q. Now if I came to you and I said look my drinking is really heavy, I’m doing things that I deeply regret, but I don’t want to go to AA. What would you do for me?

A. I would interview you at length and try to understand your situation, that’s first and put put your drinking in the context of your life, find out if there were other psychiatric diagnoses, and begin to work with you and develop your plan about how it’s going to get better. Now, if you were able to put together a plan that helped you, and I say to my patients that AA’s a bit like God, you know if He didn’t exist you’d have to invent Him. In the same way, if you don’t do AA you have to invent something like it. You have to find sober people to hang out with. Maybe you join the church or the gym. Maybe you you get with the fitness freaks or the toastmasters that toast in soft drink. So you have to develop an alternative social environment because your current social environment supports your drinking. So you need to hit it on the social front; you need to develop positive substitute dependencies. You need to get fit; you need to do exercise, get your weight right, reassess your diet, work on your relationships, et cetera. And so you need to to remake your life.

Q. Does that mean I can’t hang out with my heavy drinking mates?

A. It means you can but that increases the chance of your drinking. And so if you’re my patient I say fine go and hang out with your heavy drinking mates but see how it is; come back and talk to me about it. It’s probably going to be boring and it’s probably going to be dangerous for drinking.

Q. Why is it going to be boring?

A. Because you’re going to have a blood alcohol level of zero and they’re not. And after 10.30 or 11.00 o’clock with the a blood alcohol of zero a lot of parties that used to be great fun are pretty boring.

Q. Do people with an alcohol dependency need to go through detoxification programs?

A. It depends how severe the alcohol dependence is. So numerous of my patients stop drinking as outpatients and are able to stay stopped as outpatients. And amongst them some need medication and most don’t. Amongst the more severe alcohol dependence, where people are shaking and sweating every morning, with patients who’ve got those sort of symptoms it’s usually wise to have at least a brief period of time in hospital so they can be observed, that their blood pressure doesn’t go too high, and that their heart copes and that they don’t have seizures. And usually they need sedatives.

Q. One doctor said to me ‘early intervention into problem drinking is the key. If you get people early your success rate can be as high as 70 per cent’. Is that your view?

A. Yes, that’s true, but it’s yet to be absolutely determined that they’re the same group. Okay, so if if you get people who don’t have serious drinking problems and you intervene with them, yes you have a higher success rate, I absolutely agree, and the scientific literature about that is unequivocal.

Q. How do you get those people?

A. You screen. You vigorously look for patients. You get every patient who comes into a general practice or an emergency department to to fill out a form, to do a questionnaire and you look for it and find it earlier. But, I’m not convinced that that is the same group that were ultimately going to progress to become alcohol dependent.

Q. So those people that could be problem drinking might have an environmental reason like they’ve lost their wife or they’ve lost their job …?

A. No, I’m just saying that they they could be people who weren’t necessarily going to have full blown alcohol dependence, but were just going to drink too much and maybe get some form of problem later, maybe not.

Q. What’s the distinction?

A. What’s the distinction, okay. Well the diagnosis of alcohol dependence is where people drink a hell of a lot more and sometimes they have physical withdrawal, but certainly they have a psychological dependence on the drug where they do things over and over and over again. The early intervention is aiming at people who exceed the four standard drinks a day, not who are drinking three or four bottles of wine a day.

Q. For people watching the program can you tell them what the warning signs are if they think they may have a drinking problem?

A. Okay. Well at that level the safe limits are a very good warning sign. Do you exceed the safe limits? Are you drinking more than four drinks a day, if you’re a man? Do you drink more than six drinks on any occasion? Are you drinking more than two drinks a day if you’re a woman, are you drinking more than six drinks on any occasion?

Q. But that would be a huge amount of Australians, wouldn’t it?

A. That is quite a number of Australians. And then that’s a problem, it could affect your health; can you change it? And if you can change it, fantastic you’re a healthier person.

Q. And any signs?

A. And if you can’t, that’s the sign. It’s the inflexibility of the drinking pattern that’s the main sign where people continue to drink despite their problems; back to the original definition, ‘drinking, having problems …. so when and if you’ve got a drinking problem well then typically a few people have have nudged you; your boss, your wife, your buddies at the pub, your cricket team mates. You know that you get to work late; you know that you put things off because you drink, you feel guilty about it.

Q. That’s the test. What does alcohol abuse cost the community?

A. There are a variety of estimates. The one that I remember most recently is of the order of six billion dollars a year to the Australian community.

Q. And how’s that calculated?

A. That’s calculated by a variety of mechanisms, so that loss of life, is costly and you can reduce that to dollar terms. Hospitalisation is costly. Absenteeism. Divorce is enormously costly and a significant proportion of that is attributable to alcohol. Unemployment, a significant component of that is attributable to alcoholism as well.

Q. Is it true that as many as 80 per cent of heavy drinkers develop depressive symptoms?

A. Yes. Alcohol is a depressive drug. Initially when you drink it, when the first flush of alcohol goes into the system nearly everybody feels a little bit giddy, a little bit disinhibited, and you feel good. But if you stick with it, if you test people, in a pen and paper test, a single intoxication people will score themselves higher on a depressive scale with a single intoxication. So if it’s a depressant drug and you take it regularly surprise surprise, people get depressed. There’s absolutely, you know no magic in that.

Q. And it’s linked to some suicides too?

A. It is. In fact alcohol dependence has by some estimates a higher rate of suicide than depression does, and so that’s independent of depression. So not all people who kill themselves have a diagnosis of depression. A significant proportion have a diagnosis of alcohol dependence and irrespective of that, because of the disinhibiting factor and because of the central nervous symptom depressive effect of alcohol, if people take alcohol in addition to say other sedatives sometimes it’s the straw that breaks the camel’s back and it means that people die when they wouldn’t have otherwise.

Q. Can early childhood trauma lead to alcohol abuse?

A. Like I said the psychology is relevant, genetics is one contributor, but certainly the early childhood environment is relevant and for people who have profound emotional distress they may well be looking for ways to appease that distress and if their genetics fits, if they find that alcohol works for them in the short term then they turn to it over and over again.

Q. Is it the most damaging drug in Australian society?

A. Arguably. It competes with tobacco, with nicotine the drug in the tobacco as the most damaging drug. There is no doubt that the legal drugs cause for far more damage to the Australian community than the illegal ones, and nicotine and alcohol are head and head.

Q. Is it true that the sons of alcoholic fathers have a four to nine times chance of being prone to dangerous levels of drinking?

A. You’ve been reading the literature, Janine. Yes it’s beyond all doubt there is a genetic component in alcoholism. To reduce it to caricature, no baby is born with a schooner in their hands, but by the same token any drug affects a person differently depending upon their constitution. And so guess what, some people like it. What I say to my patients is no you’re not a mutant, but as a result of a billion years of evolution you have developed the capacity to turn what most people experience as quite a mild drug experience into a peak experience. Some people like it more than others. They like it because their brain is wired differently.

Q. And they inherit that often from their families?

A. That’s right, it’s a biological thing in their DNA, wire in the blood makes proteins, makes receptors in the brain they’re different, we’re not all identical.

Q. And so say a son of an alcoholic father what likelihood, or has he of inheriting or being prone to alcohol dependency?

A. Okay. Yes, and this is something that I confront often with my patients, particularly the ones who do well, who’ve got children and they’ve been sober for a while and they find out this information, what do I tell my children? And so if there’s a four to nine times increased chance that means that your your sons have got a 20 to 45 per cent chance, if say you say five per cent of adult males have alcohol dependence. So they’ve got a 20 to 45 per cent chance. That means that there’s at least a 50 per cent chance that they won’t get it too. And so you need to to look at that and so you work on the environment; you provide your children with information. There are drinking problems in our family, you need to be careful about it.

Q. We’re following people over a number of months who are trying to stop drinking and who’ve only recently given up. What’s your advice to them?

A. Okay. People who have newly commenced a sober life, okay, well like I said I advise nearly all my patients to go to AA, go to AA and check it out, find where you can get help, find how you can renew your life. If you can’t do the AA thing find another sober environment. Go to the church, go to the gym, go anywhere where there’s a, go to Apex or Rotary, go anywhere where there’s a bunch of sober people who are who are of goodwill and who will accept you in. So you need a new social grouping. Find out who your supporters are, use their support, get help to get well. Clinical help is often helpful too, going to see a drug and alcohol counsellor, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, and that might help you to do these plans. What are your good old habits? You had some good old habits. Find them, unearth them, get on with it. You know, did you used to ride a bike? Did you use to teach at the local community college? What else did you use to do? What motivates you? How else are you going to have fun? You find your ways to have fun.

Q. If someone is eight weeks without a drink what stage are they in terms of their battle?

A. They’re at a very, very early stage. On the one hand they need many congratulations, well done, eight weeks, 56 days that’s a lot of time. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Disorders for the American Psychiatric Association DSM IV, it says you’re in early remission up to a year. This is a long term disorder, a year is early remission, it’s short term.

Q. And can anything happen in that year?

A. Ah oh yes, yes that’s right. There’s three major things that make people relapse, and this is even identified in animal studies. The three things that make alcoholic rats relapse are stress, cues that make you remember the drinking and that trigger it, and exposure to the first drink; they’re the three things that trigger compulsive drinking behaviour.

Q. Percentage wise, what chance have our people of remaining sober?

A. Well, okay. The the relapse rate is is pretty grim in the short term. So if you just look in the short term typically 50 per cent of people have relapsed by the end of three months, sometimes more, sometimes less depending upon how tough a group it is. But in the longer term it’s not quite so bad, because of some of those people who remain sober in that first run they remain sober long term. Of the others they made an effort to get well and so they know they want an other life. And so they come back and try again and try again and try again, and in the long term probably something like 50 per cent sober up and and get to lead a decent life. Because once people do sober up typically they do get well, they get physically well and they get happy. The big fear of most drinkers is that if I stop it’s going to be a boring life and it’ll be worse. I’d rather have a short happy life than a long boring one, they say. But this is not true, this is not true. Recovered alcoholics are happy people, they enjoy life and there’s good scientific evidence to support that.

Q. What should people do if they do relapse?

A. First, don’t panic, okay, it’s it’s only drinking, it’s not the end of the world, remember you used to explain it away. So one, don’t panic. Two, do what you can to stop as soon as possible. Don’t give up, go back to the start again. Who helped you before, what helped you before, try to do that. Try to think about what lead up to this relapse. Simple things like just stop doing, stopping doing the things that helped you before. People will go to AA for six months and then think they’re cured; stop going to AA and then a little while later they’re drinking. Okay, maybe they need to go to AA long term to stay sober, or whatever your plan is. Okay, if you’re you know you’re doing the exercise plan and the counselling plan and the taking medication plan, if you stop those things you can’t expect them to keep on working for you. And that’s the real problem with recovery from alcoholism, people need to develop a plan that they can follow through long term. They need a plan that works in 2006 but also in 2007, 8, 9, 10.

Q. Now, just about women. We’ve approached so many women and we found it really hard. We had lots of males happy to talk about their alcohol dependency. What is about women who drink too much, are they labeled differently?

A. Alcoholism is a shameful disease, it’s even more shameful for people, for women alcoholics.

Q. Why?

A. Okay. Because well we retain the stereotypes. People don’t accept that it’s really a disease. They they feel in their heart of hearts that it’s really bad behaviour, okay. It is a disease, it’s a disease like every other but people feel like it’s not, and so they feel ashamed of their drinking. Now most male alcoholics are ashamed of their drinking; most female alcoholics are even more ashamed because it causes, intoxication causes disinhibited behaviour, and a disinhibited male is a bad thing. A disinhibited female involves typically sexual improprieties, and even if the alcoholic women haven’t got up to that it’s easy for people to infer that. And so it’s a very shameful condition.

Q. Also, what about labeling as she’s a bad mother?

A. Well there’s probably nothing worse. I mean everybody’s for motherhood and if this person is seen to be an incompetent mother that’s like the worst thing. It really tears people people’s hearts out. I’ve seen lots of women who’ve who’ve had their children taken away from them and it’s a shocking blow, a shocking blow to them.

Q. But why is it that they don’t say he drinks too much, he’s a bad father?

A. Well it’s true, it’s true, and occasionally I think people will say he drinks too much, he’s a bad father, but that doesn’t carry nearly the weight of judgmentality in our community as being a bad mother … Men develop alcohol abuse and dependence at a rate about twice what women do.

Q. Why is that?

A. Ah mmm, mm, men do lots of stupid things, as a man I can say that. It’s men are prone to more ‘acting out’ behaviours. If you if you go parachuting I’m sure they’ll be more men lining up. If you go bungee jumping there’ll be more men lining up for it. And guess what, in the bars there are more men lining up for it. So men drink more and surprise surprise men have more problems with drinking. There are more alcoholic men.

Q. What, have you noticed or do studies suggest that women drink in a different way compared to men?

A. That’s one of the things that’s changing, so that yes there was, a generation ago you’d say that a very significant proportion of the women alcoholics were cupboard drinkers. But that’s much less the case now. Males still outnumber female alcoholics but the women alcoholics are more likely to be rubbing shoulders in the pub and drinking with the men but still having very deep feelings of shame associated with it.

Q. Are women more vulnerable to the adverse effects of alcohol?

A. Yes. For the same number of drinks women have a considerably higher blood level because women are smaller and they break alcohol down in the stomach more slowly than men.

Q. And what are the health risks for women?

A. The health risks for women are exactly the same as for men. Perhaps their livers are a little more vulnerable, but in the same way alcohol gets into every cell in the body and can damage any particular organ that’s at all fragile to the effects of alcohol.

Q. There’s talk of a link to breast cancer, has that been established?

A. Yes, there’s an increase in the risk of breast cancer. There’s an increase in the risk of colon cancer associated with heavy drinking. I think it’s probably due to just a general diminution in health and a general diminution in the body’s immune response. I’m not sure it’s known but that, I think that’s a likely way of understanding it.

Q. How do things improve for families when a parent stops hitting the bottle?

A. The parent becomes more present. The parent becomes emotionally available. The parent connects with the children. The parent is able to channel their, get the rewards themselves and feel better about their children; feel less like they’re in between me and having fun.

Q. What’s happening for someone who’s very intoxicated who keeps telling the same story over and over and over again?

A. Yes. It’s a form of mild brain damage and it happens in people who’ve got dementia, it’s called perseveration, you persevere with the same thing over and over and over again. And you don’t remember what’s happening. And so somebody who tells the same story over and over again they’re probably in what I’d call an alcoholic blackout, so they’re not going to remember that. They don’t remember that they’ve told the start of the story by the time they finish it and so they go back to it again, and so they’re probably not going to remember any of it.

Q. If you’ve got that condition what should you do?

A. If you keep telling the same story over and over again, well you’d need to really carefully evaluate your drinking. There’s a genuine chance that you may have alcohol related brain damage and that can be assessed. If you see a general practitioner he can do routine tests, perhaps refer you on to a psychologist for detailed testing. But you really have to ahif you’re getting feedback that you’re repeating the same story over and over again you have to be careful about your brain.

Q. We’ve spoken to the widow of one alcoholic who drank himself to death. How common is that?

A. As you said earlier something like 4000 people every year die as a result of alcohol. Probably for three-quarters of them that would’ve come as a bit of a surprise, either it was an accident, or they weren’t fully aware that they had a drinking problem, but I think that perhaps a quarter of that group would’ve been aware, would’ve been warned you’re drinking too much, it’s hurting your liver; you’re drinking too much, it’s hurting your heart; your life, your brain, whatever and they’ve continued to drink. And so you’ve interviewed people, you know how hard it is for people to say okay I’m going to give this stuff up. And so it’s quite common for people to willfully say I guess I’ve got to drink on, I’ve got no choice.

Q. The widow says she wanted to get him help but legally there was nothing she could do without his consent so she just had to watch him drink himself to death.

A. Yes. And yes this is a a very tragic situation and one that’s addressed in a number of jurisdictions by in extremis in those circumstances having the legal capacity to make treatment compulsory. This is a vexed issue, whether it’s ever a good idea for people to be treated against their will for alcoholism. I think that in cases such as that one there probably is a reasonable argument for people to get short term treatment just so they sober up for long enough that you know that it really is their choice.

Q. Is that legally possible though in Australia?

A. In some jurisdictions, yes.

Q. In New South Wales?

A. In, yes currently in New South Wales and in Victoria, I’m not aware of the other States. But New South Wales are about to change those laws, they’re almost 100 years old now and they need to be dragged into the 21st century.

Q. What would you like to see?

A. I’d like to see a situation that’s similar to the Mental Health Act for for psychotic disorders and manic depressive illness where you always have the least restrictive environment, but where there’s the, and where as soon as the doctor thinks the person’s okay they can be discharged, but where if you really think that this person’s illness is killing them that you’ve got the option to take their liberty away for a short period of time.

Q. Do you think that’ll ever happen?

A. Yes. Yes, there’s a 200 page report of the Social Issues Committee of the Upper House of New South Wales Parliament that awaits legislation.

Q. There are 400 deaths from illicit drugs each year and 4000 from alcohol; why are governments not putting more resources into tackling alcohol abuse?

A. I guess the parallel fact is that 70 or 80 per cent of Australians drink and don’t have a problem, the majority the other 20 to 30 per cent don’t want me fiddling with their lives. And so it’s not a particularly electorally popular thing to do …