Jonathan Frost:

My name is Jonathan Frost. I appreciate you giving me your time, to watch my film, "Who Speaks for the Children?" It was shot, on location, over a period of three years, in Iraq, Kurdistan, and in Eastern Turkey. It focuses upon the plight, of over 15,000 children, still living in the Kurdish refugee camps, in Eastern Turkey, following Saddam Hussein's gas and chemical attacks, on their towns and villages, between August and September, of 1988.

[00:00:30]

Jonathan Frost:

The memories of those times, are almost too horrific, to bring into public view. But this is their story. Thank you.

[00:03:30]

Jonathan Frost:

On October 24, 1989, David Korn, consultant of Middle East Watch, in his testimony, before Congressional Human Rights Caucus, stated, that from April 1987, until September/October 1988, the Iraqi Regime, repeatedly bombed Kurdish rebel-held territory, with mustard and nerve gas, killing mainly civilians.

Jonathan Frost:

Nobody knows, the exact death toll, but it can safely be said, that over 10,000 Kurds, men, women, and children, of all ages, were killed. Many thousands of others were irremediably sickened. Since 1987, on the pretext of protecting the Kurdish population, and providing them with modern amenities, the Iraqi Government, has expelled several hundred thousand Kurds, from their mountain villages and towns, has razed their dwellings, and forbidden them to return, on penalty of death, and obliged them, to resettle in new towns, in the hot, dry, lowlands, of Iraqi Kurdistan.

[00:05:00]

Jonathan Frost:

Some 75 to 80% of Kurdish villages and towns, places where Kurds have lived for centuries, or millennia, have been destroyed, and large segments of Iraqi Kurdistan, have been emptied of population.

[00:05:30]

Jonathan Frost:

The response of Western governments, to Iraq's crimes against its own population, has been embarrassingly weak, and timid. Neither the current U.S. administration, nor its predecessor, has made any public statement of objection, to Iraq's brutal programme, of forced relocation of its Kurdish population.

[00:06:00]

Francis Amar:

Now, you remember that, at the end of August, or mid-August, a lot of information was given out to the press, mostly, I think, by Kurdish groups, about the situation in Northern Iraq, and the fact that, some of their populations, were trying to get away.

[00:06:30]

Francis Amar:

We were all, in the same time, you and us, and everybody else, informed of so many people, trying to get away from Northern Iraq. In the end, quite a great number of fleeing into Turkey. There were conflictual information, about how many there were, and there were very high figures quoted. More than 100,000 people. I think that, even on the Turkish side, at the very beginning, they had a hard time, finding out, really, because I think, people, you will see, when you're in the area, were scattered around the hills, and I think there were 16 or 18 points of entry, along small valleys, and so on. There were people, really, all over the place, and by the time, they started counting them, properly, and putting them into camps, or rather closed areas, they could not really know how many there were.

[00:07:30]

Francis Amar:

In the end, there were, roughly, 60,000 of them. There remain, now, more or less, 51,000. This is the number that we have seen, in five camps. The Turkish Red Crescent said, at the beginning, that the situation was under control. That the authorities, and themselves, were coping with it. And they did not need any outside help. We then made an offer of services, a formal offer of services, and we told the Turkish Government, that we were ready to help.

[00:08:00]

Francis Amar:

They answered, in turn, the same thing, "Thank you for your offer, but we don't need it now, we can cope with the situation. The situation is well under control, for the time being, at least. If we need you, we'll tell you." That was the beginning of September. On the 17th of September, the Turkish Government, made an urgent request, to us.

[00:08:30]

Francis Amar:

I should maybe, here, open a parenthesis, because I've forgotten to tell you, that the UNHCR, The United Nation High Commissioner for Refugees, was following, pretty much, the same approach, While they don't have this partner, with the Turkish Red Crescent, but, they have made an offer of services, to the Turks, and they had gotten the same reply back.

Francis Amar:

They wanted, clearly, to, first of all, show, to the world, that they had behaved, in a very human way, to these people, and, that if some of them wanted to go back, they should be given the possibility, and that this was done, very openly, and we would vouch, for the fact, that there was no pressure put on these people.

[00:09:00]

Francis Amar:

The Turks have done a fantastic job, at the very beginning. There is no doubt about that. And we can [inaudible 00:09:16]. I think, when they had this sudden influx, of a large number of people, they reacted very quickly. Remember that they are used to emergencies, both the Turkish authorities, and Turkish Red Crescent, which is not part of the government, but its close associated, if you wish. They have great experience, in earthquakes, in Turkey. You know that Turkey's prone to earthquakes, and so, they know how to react fast, with an emergency. I think this explains the quality of the job that they have done, in the beginning.

[00:09:30]

Francis Amar:

They took no time, in reacting, they built the camps, in few days, and you will see, by yourself, that, if you have any points of reference, if you have seen other refugee camps, elsewhere, in the world, you will see, the quality of the work done. No doubt about it. Their view was, the majority, or at least, we hope the majority of these people, will not remain in Turkey, and therefore, temporary measures are enough. Now, temporary measures, are not enough, because, as time is passing, the winter is coming, and we have talked of the winter, which was going to come, by the time ... The winter has started coming, and you will see for yourself, the weather is pretty much like that, but colder, because you're in the mountains, and the situation becoming increasingly difficult, for the people in the camps.

[00:10:30]

Francis Amar:

Now, the Turks, are faced with a situation, where temporary shelters, are not enough. Temporary measures are not enough. What started as a very good operation, completely under control, might become an operation more difficult to run, if the Turks don't, very quickly take additional measures. We have tried to share this concern with them. We have told them, after visiting the camps, what the shortcomings were, there are already some shortcomings, that the Turk know perfectly well.

[00:11:00]

Francis Amar:

They know that temporary shelters are not enough. Tents are not good enough for winter nights. They know that the sanitation facilities are not adequate, or sufficient, or adapted to the needs, in some cases, and so on, and they have already, themselves, started taking measures, but more is needed. The Turks have said, I think the Prime Minister, himself, said, publicly, that if the international community, was ready to help Turkey, with half of the problem, Turkey would take care of the other half.

Francis Amar:

I think that he meant, but this is my reading of it, that he meant that, first of all, he needed financial assistance, and he has made this very clear, you know that they have asked for 300 million dollars, to help them support the people there, and they have also asked for resettlement. And I think, from what I understand, that, in their view, if you take half of the refugees, this is roughly 30,000, either in European countries, or going away to Iran, or going back to their country, that would leave Turkey with roughly 30,000, say 25, if you're lucky.

Francis Amar:

I think that Turkey is preparing itself to resettle these people, in Turkey, at least, for a certain length of time, and from what we have understood, from the Turkish authorities, they are looking for ways of doing so. And they are exploring possibilities in various provinces, to resettle these people, because, of course, this means, not only giving them shelter, and creating more adequate camps, but also giving access, to possibilities of work, or agriculture, or whatever.

[00:12:30]

Francis Amar:

First of all, the Turks have, as you know, signed the Conventions on Refugees of 1951, but with a reservation, in relation to the countries from which these refugees come. In everybody's language, that means what? These people cannot be considered, legally speaking, as refugees, from the Turkish point of view. They are discussing this matter with United Nation High Commissioner for Refugees. It is not for us to decide, whether one is right, or the other is wrong, but that is the present situation.

[00:13:00]

Francis Amar:

And that, I think, explains why the Turks, so far, have not wanted UNHCR involved in this operation. This being said, I don't think they're excluded in the involvement of [inaudible 00:13:33] at a later stage, but for the time being, they have said, "Oh, thank you very much, these are not refugees, so it is not your mandate. We don't need you."

[00:13:30]

Francis Amar:

We, in this respect, offered the advantage, of putting no label on the people, I mean, we are looking after people suffering, from a humanitarian point of view, whether they are refugees or not refugees, makes no difference to us.

[00:15:00]

Jonathan Frost:

Faced with the evidence of thousands of eyewitnesses, in the refugee camps of Eastern Turkey, the world turned its back. Billions of dollars, of credit, were extended to Iraq, by countries like Britain, West Germany, and America.

[00:15:30]

Jonathan Frost:

The nurturing of diplomatic relations with Saddam Hussein, ensured for lucrative reconstructive contracts, waiting to be distributed, as Iraq reconstructed her industrial base, following the ceasefire with Iran. Provided jobs for the boys, back home, in exchange for the deaths of thousands of children, in the holocaust of Northern Iraq.

Nazar Hamdun:

Chemical weapons were used, during the Iraq-Iran War [inaudible 00:16:02] of severe Iranian attacks, on our territory, occupied Iraqi land, and made that publicly [inaudible 00:16:09] saying that, we are liberating Iraqi territories. [inaudible 00:16:16] situation, would use anything in its possession, to defend its own cities, defend their own homes.

[00:16:00]

Nazar Hamdun:

This is what weapons are all about, [inaudible 00:16:28] beginning of history. Weapons were created to defend yourself, of course, it has been used by some governments, and people, to aggress on others, but by using the weapon, to defend yourself, I think we're doing something legal.

[00:16:30]

Nazar Hamdun:

Whatever the kind of weapon, all weapons kill. We understand the sensitivity of chemical weapons, on some societies. Until the ceasefire ... Since the ceasefire, when the war ended, officially, I mean, the hostilities ended officially, Iraq has not used that weapon, and Iraq has been [inaudible 00:17:05].

[00:17:00]

Jonathan Frost:

Would you consider it, justified, to use that form of [crosstalk 00:17:13] against your own Kurdish population, then, if you felt that they were so destabilising, to your domestic situation?

Nazar Hamdun:

Sir, can you repeat your question?

Jonathan Frost:

If you consider, your own Kurdish population, now considering the Kurds in the North, here, as particularly, the guerrilla warfare, was so destabilising to your internal situation, that you would also consider using chemical weapons against them?

[00:17:30]

Nazar Hamdun:

No, I don't think so. I don't think that any Kurd in the world, will equalise between something internal, whatever is horrible, to that country, an invasion by a foreign power.

Nazar Hamdun:

Here, we are talking about a war, between Iraq and Iran, about an aggression of a country, another state, which is Iran, and that's different from [inaudible 00:18:02] internal stuff.

[00:18:00]

Jonathan Frost:

Between 1987 and 1988, over 270 shiploads of chemicals, were driven along the ancient Silk Road, from the Mediterranean board of Mersin, in Southern Turkey, to the fertilisation factories, in Iraq.

Jonathan Frost:

Iraq's chemical weapons production capabilities, and a stockpile of CW agents, is so extensive, it dwarfs that of all other Middle-Eastern contenders, combined. The chemicals begin flowing in, from the United States, Holland, and West Germany, with technicians soon arriving, from the U.S.S.R., France, and West Germany, to supervise production.

Jonathan Frost:

What is your name?

Speaker 6:

[Martin 00:19:33]

Jonathan Frost:

How old are you, [Martin 00:19:37]?

[00:19:30]

Speaker 6:

I don't know.

Jonathan Frost:

You don't know.

Speaker 6:

[inaudible 00:19:42] six years.

Jonathan Frost:

Six years. And you have a birthday soon? Is his birthday soon?

Speaker 6:

He doesn't know.

Jonathan Frost:

Okay. Where do you come from?

Speaker 6:

[Bernavere 00:19:59]

[00:20:00]

Jonathan Frost:

Okay. You are here with your mom and dad?

Speaker 6:

[Child nods]

Jonathan Frost:

Yes. And your brothers and sisters?

Speaker 6:

[Child nods]

Jonathan Frost:

Okay. [Martin 00:20:12], do you know why you are here?

Speaker 6:

Saddami

Jonathan Frost:

Ah. What does Saddami do to you?

Speaker 6:

Chemicals.

Jonathan Frost:

Chemicals. And do you see this?

[00:20:30]

Speaker 6:

He said, 'Yes.'

Jonathan Frost:

Tell me the story.

Speaker 6:

The bomb is blowed in the air, before going there.

[00:21:00]

Speaker 6:

The smell is very bad.

Jonathan Frost:

Like what does ...

Speaker 6:

Bitter.

Jonathan Frost:

Bitter. Does this make him feel sick?

Speaker 6:

No.

Jonathan Frost:

No. He has to leave with his family? To Iraq? From Iraq to here?

[00:21:30]

Speaker 6:

[Child nods]

Jonathan Frost:

What do you want to do, when you grow up?

Speaker 6:

Doctor.

Jonathan Frost:

Doctor. Ah, it's very good. But you must stay here, now, for a short time, or a long time?

Speaker 6:

I don't know.

Jonathan Frost:

You don't know. Would you like to go home?

[00:22:00]

Speaker 6:

Yes.

Jonathan Frost:

[Martin 00:22:05] is there ... [to translator] Ask him if there's something he would like to say to the six-year-olds in everywhere else.

Jonathan Frost:

Who are watching this film.

[00:22:30]

Jonathan Frost:

Would they like you to help?

Speaker 6:

Clothes.

Jonathan Frost:

Clothes. He would like some clothes.

Speaker 6:

Yeah.

Jonathan Frost:

What does he want most of all?

Jonathan Frost:

It's a difficult problem.

Jonathan Frost:

Warm clothes, perhaps?

[00:23:00]

Speaker 6:

Refugee.

Jonathan Frost:

Refugee! The smallest political refugee in the world. Okay. [Martin 00:23:11] thank you very much. I'll shake your hand. Thank you very much.

Speaker 7:

[Foreign language 00:23:20]

Speaker 8:

All of the mothers, [inaudible 00:23:22] with us, just to arrange our going back to Iraq, without blood [inaudible 00:23:31].

[00:23:30]

Speaker 7:

[Foreign language 00:23:36]

Speaker 8:

Saddam Hussein never could overcome us, unless he used the chemical on us, for a lot of years, these people are fighting, but Saddam Hussein, never could do anything for them.

Speaker 8:

He is got aeroplanes , he has got cannons, he has got weapons, but he didn't use chemical weapons before. But now, no, we are forced to go, because of the chemicals.

[00:24:00]

Jonathan Frost:

What does she need for her children, now? What does she say her needs are?

Speaker 8:

Socks, shoes, clothes, food, water to drink, and we would like to have enough blankets [crosstalk 00:24:37] the food, is 10 days, without any rice, or meat, or substantive food.

[00:24:30]

Speaker 9:

[inaudible 00:24:52]

Speaker 10:

Everything is dead. The chickens, the birds. My mother and my father, with the birds, with the chicken. All of them dead.

[00:25:00]

Speaker 11:

As I told you before, Saddam Hussein tried to genocide, but Saddam Hussein never, not now, not in the future time, he could kill or genocide all the Kurds, in the world, because, as long as we have our own party, the democratic party, our own politician, so we are going to get victory, some day. Even if this day is not appearing, right now.

[00:25:30]

Speaker 11:

The day will come, when we are going to be a nation, a Kurdish nation, we are going to live in our own land, and speak our own language, having our own tradition, with everything.

[00:26:00]

Speaker 8:

Just the name "Saddam" is terrible for them.

Jonathan Frost:

Like the devil for Christian people. Did she see anything, or smell anything when this planes came?

[00:26:30]

Speaker 8:

I saw the aeroplanes myself. Like the smell of the asphalts. The garlic asphalt, the decayed foods.

[00:27:00]

Jonathan Frost:

What is your name?

Speaker 12:

[Lazeen 00:27:21]

Jonathan Frost:

[inaudible 00:27:21] Where do you come from?

Speaker 12:

[inaudible 00:27:25]

Jonathan Frost:

Would you tell me your story about what happened?

[00:27:30]

Speaker 8:

The aeroplanes came to my village, and bombed our village, and then we fled out, and a lot of people, especially children, already dead, but they couldn't bury them, because they haven't got enough time, and then they left, to another area.

[00:28:00]

Jonathan Frost:

What is your name?

Speaker 8:

Azhad.

Jonathan Frost:

Azhad? Hello Azhad. Where do you come from?

Speaker 8:

Cumbria.

Jonathan Frost:

Would you like to tell me what you saw?

[00:28:30]

Speaker 8:

I am here, just because, the aeroplanes attacked my village, Cumbria, and a lot of people, already killed, and the smoke of chemical weapons, didn't leave anything alive.

Jonathan Frost:

What is your name?

Speaker 8:

Noah.

Jonathan Frost:

Hello Noah, and where do you come from?

[00:29:00]

Speaker 8:

[inaudible 00:29:06]

Jonathan Frost:

And can she tell me why she's here?

Speaker 8:

Because of the aeroplanes , because of the bombs, because of the burning of everything. Chemical weapons. So we fled to Turkey.

Jonathan Frost:

Can she tell me what she sees?

[00:29:30]

Speaker 8:

She said, when the aeroplanes came, they bombed, some of the people killed, and some of the children also killed. But they don't have enough time to bury them. We fled out from our village.

[00:30:00]

Speaker 8:

Very disgusting smell, that come from this chemical.

Jonathan Frost:

And what did he see happen in the village?

[00:30:30]

Speaker 8:

He said, "When I saw the bombs, is already blown out, and the smoke, didn't leave anything alive, especially the wood, and the greens, and all the vegetables, and all that. A lot of us are already dead."

Speaker 8:

The smell of garlic. I smelled. The smoke is already white. Even, we are, a little far away from this spot, but the smell, we have got the smell, and after that, we wash our eyes, with water, and pieces of cloth.

[00:31:30]

Speaker 8:

Just like the smell of asphalt.

Jonathan Frost:

Is she very afraid?

Speaker 8:

Yes.

Speaker 8:

Most of my relatives, already lost. I don't know where they are now.

Jonathan Frost:

Could he tell me, if it's not too painful for him, can he tell me their names, so that people can know?

[00:32:00]

Speaker 8:

[inaudible 00:32:19] His relatives. He didn't [inaudible 00:32:23] his real relatives. His father, or mother, or sister, no. But he consider all are dead with the chemicals. His people.

[00:32:30]

Jonathan Frost:

I understand.

Jonathan Frost:

And how old are you?

Speaker 8:

10 years old. I would like to go to school. Then I will specialise in medicine, so we can treat our people.

[00:33:00]

Jonathan Frost:

What would he like the people in Europe and America to send, to help him here?

Speaker 8:

We need [inaudible 00:33:15], he would like our life to be like them, and we would like house is like their house. Thank you.

[00:33:30]

Speaker 8:

For the children, she send her warm greetings, and she hope that they will never see what she herself sees, and for the bigger one, the people, she would like to say, also send her greetings, and she would like to look, eyes of mercy, upon us.

[00:34:00]

Speaker 8:

When we open our eyes, the village, we see destruction everywhere, and our story is ordinary. Every day, we expect that Iraqi soldiers, and Iraqi aeroplanes attack our village.

Speaker 8:

This boy says that the pictures of blood, and also the dead children, it is ordinary for us. Because, it is a part of our life. He says that, one day, we opened our eyes, at six o'clock in the morning, and see that, many aeroplanes are in the sky, so come and bombed our village. Here is the aeroplane, and it is rockets. Here is the building, house, which are affected by the rockets of the aeroplanes . And here is the smoke, that is rising from the house.

[00:35:00]

Speaker 8:

And here is the head of one of the children, and here is the blood, which is coming from his head. And here are his hands. Every part of his body is going to around his body. And here is his neck, and torso, the blood is coming from his leg. Also, this is a woman, who is carrying her baby, and her baby was killed, and blood is coming from her baby.

[00:35:30]

Jonathan Frost:

The facts of the chemical attacks, on unarmed civilians, and children, were scarcely believed by the foreign press, or politicians abroad. So effective was the Iraqi propaganda machine. But you cannot censor the memories of children, and the interviews they gave me, and the pictures they drew, graphically expose the Iraqi lies.

[00:36:00]

Speaker 8:

Here are the pictures of the children, and a woman, which are killed by chemical weapons, and here are a woman, which is escaping, and run away, because of their bombs, and also, here is a tree, also affected by chemical weapons, and peppers are falling down.

[00:38:30]

Jonathan Frost:

It has been over two years, since the gas and chemical attacks. The refugees, of this camp, [inaudible 00:38:55] have since been moved, to earthquake shelters, at [inaudible 00:39:00] in the mountains to the north. Several thousand, have returned to Iraq, their situation in Turkey, having grown so desperate, and no one knows, what has happened to these people.

[00:39:00]

Francis Amar:

Our position is very simple, and very clear. We have not sent, to Turkey, any investigation team, it is not within our mandate. We have therefore, had, a doctor in our team, and he has explored the medical situation, in general, now, we are not, at this stage, either to confirm, or to infer, the use of chemical weapons. This is the best I can tell you, on the issue.

[00:39:30]

Speaker 13:

What I would like to say, we are living in the 20th century, and people is already condemned [inaudible 00:39:52] and condemned all the fascist regimes, why do they don't condemn Saddam Hussein's regimes? Because he is bombing his own people, with chemical weapons. What is the reason for this silence?

[00:40:00]

Speaker 13:

Did they really not believe, that Iraqi regime used these weapons, against his own people? If they are suspicious about that, we have got proof, and we have got causalities, here, proof that Iraqi regime used these weapons.

Speaker 13:

Children here, they can't make difference between false regime, and mustard and nerve gas, they are not ... They are only 10 years old. That's all. The children knows what the chemical weapons look like. What is the reason of this silence? Why do they not judge, an international judgement , this regime, for committing this big crime. It's genociding the Kurds in Kurdistan.

[00:41:00]

Speaker 8:

First, when they shoot, and the birds, fall down.

Jonathan Frost:

The birds in the air fall down?

Speaker 8:

Fall down. And they died. And also the animals, when the chemical weapon, it happened, and then they fell down.

Speaker 13:

Every day, two child, between two and three children, already dead. Children.

Speaker 13:

As soon as we are going to get political refugee situation, because are not yet, as we told, accepted as political refugees. This is first. Secondly, we would like, just to know about our destination. What's going to be happening for us? This is the big question, for all of our people.

[00:41:30]

Speaker 13:

They usually ask, "What's going to happen, after two, three months? Are we going to stay in these tents, are we going to move to another place? Are we going to be accepted, in the form of political refugees, they have got rights, with the United Nations, or international organisations, or something like that. That is what worried us, really."

[00:42:00]

Speaker 13:

What is our destination? What is going to be done for us, in the future time?

Jonathan Frost:

This teenage boy, was shot in the [inaudible 00:42:28] by Turkish Special Forces, when the people marched, in protest, about the prohibited funeral, and killings, in New Saiba. Police and soldiers opened fire, on a small group, of about 150 people, injuring as many as 19, and killing 8 or 9 others.

[00:42:30]

Jonathan Frost:

Tanks and armoured cars, descended upon the town, from the military camp, on the hillside above. The 10-year-old boy was crushed, by an armoured car.

[00:43:00]

Jonathan Frost:

On March 15th, nine Kurds were killed by the Turkish Special Forces, who then conveniently labelled them [inaudible 00:43:21] terrorists, and refused the relatives proper burial of their bodies. The regional administration of New Saiba allowed troops to come in from the outside, to prevent a funeral from being celebrated, and these troops then clashed with the local people.

[00:43:30]

Jonathan Frost:

The Turkish press, spoke of an intifada, as each town rose up in anger, the police, secret police, and military clamped down, broke up marches, beat up the congregations of students, and civilians, and arrested hundreds of people. That evening, the authorities prohibited the entire population of [Jisra inaudible 00:44:08] from leaving their homes, for any reason.

[00:44:00]

Jonathan Frost:

They were prohibited from going out, on the streets, for the next two days. On Friday, the 23rd of March, after praying in the local mosque, after the curfew was lifted, attending to the funeral service, for their dead, those leaving the mosque, were joined by hundreds of women and children, in the streets, and marched in a 1000-strong body, chanting anti-Turkish government slogans, and showing the victory sign to the press, and appealing for freedom in Kurdistan.

[00:44:30]

Jonathan Frost:

As a symbol of solidarity, neighbouring towns also marched, and from [inaudible 00:44:44] to [inaudible 00:44:47] the local people kept the shutters down, across the windows of their shops, and refused to open them.

Jonathan Frost:

Turkey has, in the past, enjoyed a special relationship with Iraq. This has been eroded, by the construction of dams, in the east. The gap projects in Iraq's view, threatens to turn the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates, into a weapon of the future, cutting off the water supply, Iraq so badly needs for irrigation. The water has also, drowned, forever, Kurdish villages, and thousands of acres of grazing land.

[00:45:00]

Jonathan Frost:

Iraq, as a response to this, and as a reaction to Turkey's yearning for acceptability, in the west, has put pressure on the government, to cooperate, and deny the Kurdish house guests, refugee status. In addition to cooperating with Iraq, and attempting to coerce the Kurds, into returning, following recent amnesties.

[00:45:30]

Jonathan Frost:

The question has to be asked, in the light of Turkey's appalling human rights record against their own Kurdish population, how can we expect justice for the Kurds, in these camps of Eastern Turkey?

[00:46:00]

Speaker 14:

When the Turkish Government poisoned our [inaudible 00:46:30] we write reports to the head minister, here in Ankara. We told them, that, we ... You didn't want us. And we also didn't want to stay in Turkey. If it is possible, bring us to the border, of any country, except Iraq, and let us cross the border, and if any person have chance, to cross the border, he get long life. If he killed, he be happy, because finish his life from Turkey.

[00:47:00]

Speaker 14:

We are very tired, here.

Jonathan Frost:

Are you negotiating with the Turkish authorities for their return to Iraq, Iraqi-Kurdistan, and if so, under what conditions?

[00:47:30]

Nazar Hamdun:

Iraq has [inaudible 00:47:38] to amnesties for those people, and others, who are in other countries, who, because of the circumstances of the war, and the last few months, of the hostilities, in the north, that has put them under some difficulties, where the Iraqi troops were trying to liberate the Iraqi territory, from the Iranian troops, and from some of the collaborators, the groups that have let the Iranian troops inside our territory.

[00:48:00]

Nazar Hamdun:

Because of those circumstances, at the end, we've decided that full amnesty should be provided to them, to let them come back. Some of them came back, to the country, and are living a very normal life. Others have decided to stay over there, and we have kept our amnesty open, in a de facto way, for any of them, who would like to come back.

Nazar Hamdun:

It is not precisely, [inaudible 00:48:33] issue between us and Turkey, before the Turkish government sees that, they cannot force them into doing anything. We have seen that we will be willing to talk, and negotiate, with them, with the population [inaudible 00:48:46].

[00:48:30]

Nazar Hamdun:

Some of them, again, returned, and others decided to stay over there, but we will keep our country open, for them, any time they want to come back, just like any other citizen.

Jonathan Frost:

Do you consider the problems, with the [inaudible 00:48:59] to be finished now? Or do you consider the problem, is actually, continuing at this present time?

[00:49:00]

Nazar Hamdun:

I don't see any current problems, in the situation. From my gatherings, from what I hear from my friends, and other visitors, who have been to do the Kurdish region, situation there is quite peaceful, and calm. Therefore, I don't consider it as problematic.

Jonathan Frost:

One final question. In view of the fact, that many of the resources of Iraq, exist in the Kurdish autonomy region, do you envision, in the future, any of the revenues, going from these resources, being put back into the region, for regional development?

[00:49:30]

Nazar Hamdun:

Well, Iraq is full of potential resources. I don't have to remind you here, of the different locations, one of those locations, obviously the north. The policy of the government, has been, all parts of Iraq, should receive similar care, in terms of the number of population, and the kind of facilities, that are needed, or whether a region was deprived of some of their prosperity, [inaudible 00:50:16] that prevented the government, from doing this.

[00:50:00]

Nazar Hamdun:

And that context, I believe the north will be receiving a lot of the money, that, is allocated for the budget, for this year, and probably, specifically, next year.

[00:50:30]

Speaker 15:

And we talk, now, about the situation of the modern income. There is, about, 11,800 person in [inaudible 00:50:50], and during this one-and-a-half years, they lived under the tents, during the winter and summer. They are in a very bad, and a very difficult situation, because the life under the tents, is very difficult.

[00:51:00]

Speaker 15:

There is no way, this peoples, are suffer from freedom. They are not like the [inaudible 00:51:28]. Their governor, his name is Ahmed [inaudible 00:51:36], make a very big pressure, and a very bad treatment, for them, to make them going back, again, to Iraq, before 10 days, he begin to told the peoples, that Saddam Hussein, gave amnesty to those peoples, which they live now, in Turkey, and he say, you go, if you want, or you didn't want, by pressure.

[00:52:00]

Speaker 15:

He called the responsibles of the camp, or some peoples, which they have, a lot of relatives, and told them, if you make pressure, to your peoples, to [inaudible 00:52:40] them, returning, again, to Iraq, I punched you, I imprison you, I sending you first to Iraq.

[00:52:30]

Jonathan Frost:

Three outbreaks of food poisoning occurred, in the refugee camps of [inaudible 00:52:53], thousands became ill.

Speaker 15:

And this [inaudible 00:52:59] begin, to make them foodless, to give less food to the peoples, to make them nervous, and use psychology, to these peoples, to making them turn again, to Iraq.

[00:53:00]

Speaker 15:

And during this 10 days, he didn't let any person, going outside the camp. We feel that there is no person hearing us, because we are a poor people, why, every day, thousands, of our peoples, in Kurdistan, of Iraq, killed, by secret ways, and the Kurdish people have no friends. They are poor and no one looking for them.

[00:54:00]

Speaker 15:

They forget it. This is [inaudible 00:54:22] of the world.