Phil VO

Shots of bodies, burning and fleeing refugees.

Shots of phil in burnt villages

Phil on side of road. Car pulls up with large man. The commander.

Enter house, begin sitting interview.

This is Darfur – for years a bitter and vicious conflict that has killed 100,000s and displaced millions

I have covered this 'genocide' closely, and now, for the first time am about to meet one of its perpetrators.

This man says he was a Sudanese  Commander who  supplied, financed and led the  Janjaweed militias who  have raped and murdered with impunity across Darfur. 

After months of negotiation he agreed to speak to me about his role in committing war crimes, and according to him, the Sudanese governments role in funding and planning the Darfur Conflict.

He had brought with him military identification, photographs of him in the field and official documents as proof to his claim.

He began by telling me about a secret meeting in 2003 with a leading member of the Sudanese government.

We cannot name this man for legal reasons. 

Commander

He said to us just you bring your people, Arab people, yours from there and I give you the weapons, the money, the horses, the camels, the uniform, everything, like that.

Phil

What is it that you believe was it that he wanted you to do with these weapons?

Commander

To Attack, to attack the people there, civilians, rebels. He said to us exactly. We need only land, we dont need the people there.



Phil

What do you believe was the intention of the government asking you to do this?

Commander

Translated VO

It is racist and a tribal issue. We were attacking villages where they were only the blacks, the niggers. These people were civilians. They had no weapons.

Phil

Did men under your command rape women in Darfur?

Commander

Translated VO

Yes. Yes. About five cases. Of rape. I tried to stop them but they refused. They carried on raping. They said they were allowed.

Phil

Do you believe that Sudanese government wanted rape to be used by militia and soldiers in Darfur?

Commander

Translated VO

Yes. Yes.  We reported cases of rapes and asked to bring those individuals to justice. But the government took no action.

VO Phil

The commander claimed he had led 1000s of Janjaweed men on horseback in random attacks on black African civilians. I asked him to give me details of one specific attack.

Commander

There is a village called Furtaburno. This first attack there in Furtaburo. All the Janjaweed attack the village randomly.

Phil

Who was in the village?

Commander

Civilians

Phil

Were there any rebels in the village?

Commander

No rebels in the village. It is more than 25 villages. No rebels.

Phil

You attack all of  these villages?

Commander

Yes. Random attack. We fire at them.

Phil

This is men, women and children?

Commander

Yes. Men, women, children, old men, old women, small children.

Phil

When I was in villages in Darfur. Villages that had been attacked by militias, perhaps your milita. I saw many thinks, fpr example, that were very detailed in the attacks. Many cooking bowls were shot through, water wells destroyed. Why such detail?

Commander

Translated VO

Firstly, our intention was that when we entered a village, we were to steal and loot whatever we could.  As for the water wells, we put sand in and blocked them. We cut down trees and burnt villages. We wanted to force the population out of their areas and give them no chance to live there again.

Phil

Where these instructions that came from Khartoum?

Commander

Yes. These instructions came from Khartuom. Because there is a promise, to the Janjaweed, beside the money they give them, he must take everything in the village.




Phil

As loot?

Yes, looting the village

Phil

Did your men do this?

Yes

You saw your men looting?

Yes yes, looting.

Phil VO

I asked the commander about a village called Gegira. For the last 3 years I had worked closely with the survivors from this village and had been in Gegira only days after the attack. 

Commander

In Gegira I see very bad things. The village is damaged. Even the civilian people, really no rebels, only civilians. Gegira is attacked by militia of Janajweed. They attack the village, burn it. Rape the women.

Phil

Were there any rebels in the village?

Commander

No rebels in the village. It is more than 25 villages. No rebels.

Phil

You attack all of  these villages.

Commander

Yes. Random attack. We fire at them.

Phil

This is men, women and children?

Commander

Yes. Men, women, children, old men, old women, small children.

Phil

When I was in villages in Darfur. Villages that had been attacked by militias, perhaps your milita. I saw many thinks that were so details in the attacks. Many cooking bowls were shot through, water wells destroyed. Why such detail?

Commander

Firstly is that the intention is when we enter a village, to steal and loot and destroy the village and whatever we can. Secondly, not leave any chance for the population in these areas to live there again. Specifically to make them flee the area completely. As for the water wells, it is true. We blocked them. We cut the trees and burn the villages. All these things in order to make the people flee and no chance to live there again.

Phil

Where these instructions that came from Khartoum?

Commander

Yes. These instructions came from Khartuom. Because there is a promise, to the Janjaweed, beside the money they give them, he must take everything in the village.

Phil

As loot?

Commander

Yes, looting the village.

Phil

Did your men do this?

Commander

Yes.

Phil

You saw your men looting?

Commander

Yes, looting, stealing.

VO

Shots of phil with survivors of Gegira. Shots of village of gegira.

I asked the commander about a village called Gegira. For the last 3 years I had worked closely with the survivors from this village and had been in Gegira only days after the attack. 

Arbab

Shots of destroyed Gegira.

In Gegira I see very bad things. The village is damanged. Even the civilian people, really no rebels, only civilians. Gegira is attacked by militia of Janajweed. They attack the village, burn it. Rape the women. Yes.

Phil

Shots of phil walking past large round pits.

I was in Gegira. Days after the attack. I saw many round pits. What were

these?

Commander

Translated VO:

These were mass graves. Filled with many people. The population living in these areas were wiped out by mass murder. They had been buried in mass graves. You can see one grave is about 15 to 20 people.

Phil

The murder of men, women and children. In their hundreds of thousands across Darfur. Why did you do it?

Commander

Translated VO

At that time in my life, I was satisfied and ok with what I was doing. But all that time, I was seeing horrific crimes and killing. I have changed.

Phil VO

I then asked the commander about where the weapons came from that he and the Janjaweed militias used. His claim was hard to substantiate.

Commander

I say to you, there are some weapons that say made in china.

Phil

The relationship with China, what did you understand as a military officer in the field, that China was to you. Did you see China as an ally?

Commander

Yes, china is the strongest ally of Sudan. They benefit greatly from our oil revenues. That’s why china keeps a strong relationship. Why they support Sudan militarily.  They support Sudan by army training and weapons and so on.

Phil

They still support Sudan with weapons?

Commander

Yes, they support, Because they still still in the field of Sudan. They field of oil.

Phil VO

 My interview with the commander lasted many hours. He claimed he had personally dealt with millions of dollars  sent by Khartoum to fund the war and that he had organised the recruiting of thousands of young Arab men to fight as Janjaweed.

All claims that are hard to substantiate.

Indeed much of what he said  was personal testimony from the killing fields that is almost impossible to verify.

The commander's motives for speaking were never truly clear, but if perpetrators of the Darfur genocide are now breaking ranks, it may mean a resolution is under way to one of Africa's bitterest modern conflicts.

This is Phil Cox MORE4 news East Africa.