SOUTH AFRICA – TUTU: AFTER THE TRC

October 1998

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

INTERVIEWER

Archbishop Desmond Tutu

INTERVIEWER

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

INTERVIEWER

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

INTERVIEWER

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

INTERVIEWER

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

INTERVIEWER

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

INTERVIEWER

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

INTERVIEWER

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

INTERVIEWER

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU

Very warm tribute to my colleagues, my fellow commissioners and committee members, and our staff. They were outstanding, outstanding, and it was wonderful to be the captain of an outstanding team.

And we got people from Holland who assisted us in our investigative unit. So we got help from all over the world, because the world wanted to see us succeed in this experiment.

There seems to be a lot of difference between what you now describe and the terrible past and the truth that came out. Isn’t that kind of a contradiction almost?

In what sense? I mean, we are saying, we recognise that there is a lot of evil, but we also recognise that there is a lot of good, and we have no doubt at all that ultimately, because God is in charge, good will come out of evil, just as good came out of the evil of the cross, that the cross is one of the most awful instruments and yet it becomes the sauce of life. The instrument of death becomes the instrument of life.

What was the most difficult of the process for you?

Oh dear, the thing that caused me a lot of anguish, really, ultimately was the reaction of white people generally in South Africa, to reject the commission, to discredit the commission, but one understood very well that this was one of the reactions at the revelations. You know, that so much evil was committed really on their behalf, they couldn’t handle it, they handled it by denial.

Some people said, all this truth worsened the situation?

You know, when a husband and wife have quarrelled because one of them is unfaithful, the truth when it comes out can almost alienate them, even lead to divorce, but it could also be something that strengthens their relationship if they handle it. But initially the truth shocks, the truth traumatises, and it’s not easy.

It’s never easy to forgive, it’s never easy to be reconciled, it’s not cheap. You know it cost God the death of his son.

Did the committee catch enough so-called ‘big fish’?

We would have obviously preferred it if everybody who knew they had done wrong things and come voluntarily to the commission. I think we have got enough to be able to say, “this is as accurate a picture as we can ever hope to get of the past”. We would have hoped that more people, especially defence force, could have come, we got a lot from the police and I would say it’s as much as you could ever have hoped, when you think look at Chile…

But if you look at for example the reaction of P. W. Botha?

Yes, the fact is you see that when he ignored a subpoena, we handed it over to the courts. There’s not much you can do short of saying, we should have tortured him, but we say, we want to cultivate a new culture of respect for human rights – and even Mr Botha has rights. And we must honour them even if it’s rights that he denied many of his opponents when he was in power.

And on the other hand, how do you look at the case of Winnie Mandela?

For those people who keep claiming that the commission was biased in favour of the ANC, that demonstrates - I mean she is the only person who had an eleven-day inquiry.

Nobody else have we called forward and subjected to that kind of grilling. And if the commission had in fact been the ANC’s lapdog, that's the last thing it would’ve done.

But we were trying to say we want to find out the truth; whoever may be involved is not, for us, the important thing. We are not going to be intimidated by…

You found out so much truth, isn’t it going to be a heavy burden for the future?

The burden would be if you pretended it isn’t there. Now it has come out into the open. It will not fester. The trouble is with many countries, look at the United States - they have not dealt with slavery, they have not dealt with the legacy of the civil war, and so constantly they get eruptions of race incidents, which in part can be attributed to the past with which they have not really dealt.

In South Africa the English and Afrikaners have not dealt with the pain of the Anglo-boer war. And constantly it keeps erupting to remind them it is there.

How is post TRC South Africa going to be like?

Certainly a success, one day, but it is going to be a process, people have to deal with the truth, and the truth – as you were saying in one of the questions – is not always an enjoyable exercise, and we have a way to try to com to terms with our truth, but we have tried. And I think the world is looking on and saying, maybe here is a way of dealing with a post conflict, a post repression period.

This may be the most valuable way. And people in Ireland are saying maybe this is going to be the way for us, people in Ruanda are saying this is the way we are going to have to handle. I am not saying we have a blue print, I am saying here is something, there are mistakes, there are achievements, choose what may be of use for yourselves.

You are now going to enjoy your pension?

Haha, yes at the moment I am much looking forward to the time at this university Emory here, they are spoiling me, they are very generous. And my wife and I are hoping that we will have time to relax.