Brother No.2
Cambodia
Black= Interviewer
Bold= Caption
Red= Nuon Chea
00:07 BROTHER NO.2 Cambodia, November 2011
00:12 Caption : NUON CHEA on Year Zero
00.17 They call 1975-9 ‘Year Zero?
0.25 What do you understand by the term ‘Year Zero’?
0.32 What was zeroed? Corruption, gambling, beating, stabbing…
0.42 …robbing and idleness were all zeroed
0.51 But what was on the rise?
0.58 Socialism and collectivism- that’s where we were heading.
1.08 What else was zeroed?
1.12 Financial exploitation of the poor by the rich was zeroed. There were no more debts
1.20 So debtors were now happy and free
1.30 But creditors were furious
1.38 This was what Year Zero meant.
1.48 © 2011 Old Street Films/Thet Sambeth
1.54 Caption: NUON CHEA on Killing Traitors
2.02 Uncle, was it right to kill traitors?
2.08 I don’t want to be accused of being brutal…
2.13 But we have to consider whether it was reasonable given the threat they posed to our nation
2.20 We can’t just think of the individual
2.25 Think how threatened our country would have been, if they had stayed alive.
2.29 With any philosophical issue, it is a question of proportion. We looked at the scale of the problem.
2.35 We were not just talking about a few stretches of land, but our entire sovereignty.
2.42 Cambodia ould have been lost for centuries and we would never have won her back.
2.58 Believe me if these traitors were alive, the Khmers as a people would have been finished.
3.12 So I dare to suggest our decision was the correct one.
3.18 If we had shown mercy to these people, the nation would have been lost.
3.28 What do you mean? If they were allowed to live, it would go on forever?
3.33 I mean that we would be Vietnam’s poodle until we were totally subjugated.
3.42 Scene Change
3.45 There are two quite separate issues here
3.47 One is the deaths of innocent people. The other is deaths of traitors in our party.
3.52 They weren’t party cadres anymore because they had betrayed us. They were agents for foreigners.
3.59 These people were killed. It was Pol Pot who made the final decision to kill.
4.05 As for innocent people’s deaths, neither Pol Pot nor I knew too much.
4.12 We only knew about the ex-cadres’ deaths because Pol Pot decided to kill them. So obviously we knew.
Scene Change
4.22 If those individuals had been left alive, we would have lost our country and our people.
4.25 We would have no Cambodia today
4.34 I have feelings for both the nation and the individual
4.44 But I will always put the needs of the nation before those of the individual
4.50 An individual’s needs can be met later
4.53 But if the individual becomes a problem, then they must be solved.
5.04 Are you sorry for those who were killed?
5.07 I have no regrets
5.11 I am more sorry for my country because it is currently in a mess…
5.16 Because the Khmer Rouge failed to beat the enemy.
5.20 Those traitors were wrong in what they did.
5.27 Caption: NUON CHEA on smashing
5.32 Pol Pot and you decided on a policy of ‘smashing.’ What was that?
5.40 You smash a person’s selfish nature- the part drawn to power and privilege for personal gain.
5.49 We believed the party must be built without these elements in people
5.53 We prohibited debauchery, alcohol or obsession with material things like money.
6.00 Because materialism makes you an individualist.
6.07 Smashing this element did not mean killing a person…
6.11 …it meant smashing the bourgeois attitude which makes you think you are always right.
6.17 You think only of your own personal interest and never of the common interest.
6.29 This is what smashing means.
6.32 Caption: NUON CHEA on Pol Pot part one
6.42 What about the complications with his wife?
6.48 Earlier he didn’t have any problems. He just worked in a regular way
6.55 He didn’t have much fulfilment with his wife
7.01 Let’s be clear, not much fulfilment with his wife
7.08 Pol Pot’s first wife, Khieu Ponnary, had health problems
7.17 So their life together was troublesome
7.26 There was no discussion about divorce
7.32 So she continued to be his wife?
7.34 In truth she was no longer his wife because they didn’t share their life together
7.47 She wasn’t his wife any more because they didn’t live together or sleep together
7.53 They lived separately from each other
8.09 Caption: on Pol Pot’s promotion to secretary general
8.16 Let me tell you the truth about how Pol Pot became party secretary
8.26 I was supposed to take over after Tu [Samouth was killed] because I had been his deputy
8.39 But I recognised Pol Pot as an independent thinker with a very analytical mind
8.52 At that time we needed to attract intellectuals to the resistance
9.00 I just wasn’t intellectual enough
9.07 So I approached Pol Pot and told him it wasn’t right for me to become party secretary
9.20 I asked him to accept the role instead
9.27 He thought about it and agreed to my request but said we’d work as a team
9.36 So that was it. He became the party’s general secretary
9.49 Oh, I forgot one thing…
9.59 Some party members didn’t trust me because my uncle Siv Heng was a traitor
10.13 Caption: Nuon Chea’s uncle, SIEU HENG
10.19 Did Pol Pot keep his promise to always discuss with you what he wanted to do?
10.26 He did for the big issues
10.31 Our meetings were often more like consultations than formal meetings
10.40 He might say “comrade, I have an idea I’d like to discuss with you.”
10.53 A chance to compare opinions outside of a meeting
10.58 For efficiency’s sake, we didn’t always have meetings- we just shared views
11.08 We couldn’t always find time to keep having proper meetings
11.14 Issues were always cropping up, we just talked whenever problems arose
11.24 How to improve people’s living standards was at the heart of many of our discussions
11.31 There were many complicated issues, nephew
Scene change
11.42 Do you remember Pol Pot when you sit alone and think about the past?
11.51 I remember him when he was young, in the secret resistance
12.00 I also remember Ta Mok and how we worked together
12.10 What do you feel now when you remember the past?
12.25 Pol Pot was someone who was good at finding solutions to problems
Scene Change
12.34 How do you remember Pol Pot
12.39 I remember him as someone who loved his country
12.42 For me his memory is as a real patriot, not a murderer
12.50 Caption: NUON CHEA on Pol Pot part two
13.00 During your self-criticism sessions what did Pol Pot and you say to each other?
13.15 As I recall, he criticised me for not following the guidelines of the United National Front
13.31 In other words, I was too hardline, not soft enough
13.43 My criticisms of Pol Pot were firstly, health. Secondly…I forget…
14.00 Oh that’s right, he was too quick to trust people. Otherwise it was trivial stuff like daily living
14.15 What do you mean daily living?
14.19 Things like physical well-being. But the sessions mainly focused on our political work.
14.33 I remember he once criticised himself for not fully adjusting to a revolutionary life
14.42 He was still concerned for his karma
14.47 He still felt he was still bourgeois in his attitudes. He still had cravings for luxury and happiness
14.57 What bad points did you raise against Pol Pot?
15.06 Bad points? Let me think…it was so long ago…
15.12 The negative things you criticised each other about
15.22 There was no joy in his life. He only thought about work
15.29 He was a workaholic and he rarely thought about his wife, who was very sick
15.37 That was a negative point
15.41 He had his good points but he paid too little attention to her sickness and their relationship
15.51 Did you and Pol Pot ever argue with each other pr have disputes when you were in government?
16.02 There was nothing
16.07 Not between ’75 and ‘79
16.16 There was no problem between us
Scene Change
16.34 Most people see Pol Pot as a killer, but you still support him. Why?
16.47 Because Pol Pot loved his country
16.51 He only killed traitors, he didn’t kill the people
16.56 It was the traitors who did that. They were the real killers
17.04 What do you think of people who say Pol Pot was the killer?
17.12 He’s not a killer- a killer is someone who murders innocent people without reason
17.21 Tell me again
17.23 Pol Pot was not a killer. He killed, sorted out those who betrayed the nation and the people
17.32 Those who sold the country to foreigners
17.36 It’s difficult to put this clearly
17.39 We have to look at Vietnam- for a century it wanted to swallow up Cambodia
Scene Change
17.51 Pol Pot and I had a discussion after liberation
17.55 We knew spies were causing a problem, but we couldn’t identify them
18.01 We saw a lack of discipline amongst our cadres. What was the cause?
18.09 They were drunk on power, debauchery and wine
18.15 even though we had abolished wine and money
18.25 Pol Pot and I discussed the issues in the party
18.30 We recognised it was still a young organisation
18.34 We had beaten America too quickly. This victory was a double-edged sword
18.39 On the one hand, we had quickly liberated our nation and our people
18.44 But on the other hand, our party members were inexperienced
18.49 They lacked revolutionary and military training
18.57 So they overindulged, especially the younger ones who had only just joined
19.04 They wanted to take credit for our victory. All this led our party to disaster
19.09 That’s what I said
19.10 Caption: NUON CHEA On confessions
19.32 You told me you read the confessions so you could use them for educational purposes
19.45 How did you use them to educate your junior cadres?
19.57 I didn’t read all the documents because there were so many
20.03 It wasn’t my job to read them all.
20.06 I just highlighted some of the enemy’s dangerous tricks warn our junior cadres
20.14 The enemy led our cadres astray from the party’s principles offering sex, wine, the trappings of power.
20.28 Debauchery, alcoholism and gambling are the ruin of society
20.37 You may not be gambling yourself, but your wife might be
20.484 So I used the confessions to show our cadres how the enemy was undermining us with materialism
20.58 Some of our cadres were seduced by materialism even without enemy interference
21.05 Caption: NUON CHEA on the ECONOMICS of REVOLUTION
21.11 We did not allow private ownership of anything- land, factories or rice
21.17 All this came under collective control
21.21 The poor were happy with Democratic Kanpuchea because…
21.25 …they had democratic rights…
21.28 …economic rights, freedom from debt, living as equals
21.34 Meanwhile the rich lost their profits…
21.39… and their rented-out farmland…
21.43 …so they were no thappy with Democratic Kampuchea
21.47 …although they looked happy from the outside
21.50 But this is all understandable since they’d lost their profits
21.54 Where did their profits go? Answer: to the poor
21.57 Caption: NUON CHEA on Extreme Revolution
22.02 After you won the war, why didn’t you take the country back to what it was before?
22.12 Why did you make such an extreme revolution?
22.18 It’s hardly a revolution if every thing stays the same
22.23 We eliminated the previous system. Nothing bad remained
22.26 We introduced new progressive policies
22.31 The old imperialist regime was corrupt…
22.37 Prostitution and vagrancy were widespread.
22.44 We wanted to clean up society completely
22.55 This is the first step on the revolutionary path to prosperity
23.00 It takes more than a change of personnel at the top. For a revolution, the whole regime must change
23.07 We could have easily just made ourselves Prime Minister and King.
23.20 But anyone who calls that a revolution is completely wrong
23.26 So your revolution was out to change more than just the government?
23.36 …you were out to change the whole of society?
23.39 We were out to change the whole of society
23.43 And I would say that we did change the whole of society
23.46 We were taking thew country on the road towards socialist prosperity
23.51 We were producing food collectively
23.58 We did not allow any one social class to oppress any other class or group of people
24.12 Everone had food and clothes in equal measure
24.17 Ours was a clean regime…a bright regime…a peaceful regime.
24.26 This was our goal, at any rate…
24.34 But we failed because they destroyed us by waging their spy war from the very moment of liberation
24.41 Caption: NUON CHEA-“I joined the resistance because I love people”
24.46 Uncle, what do you think and feel about all these men who killed…
24.56 …and the people who were killed by them?
25.03 I am sorry they were killed because I love people
25.09 That’s why I joined the resistance
25.12 If I didn’t love people, why would I have joined the resistance?
25.15 I could have had a comfortable time in a n easy government job
25.18 I feel especially sorry for the elderly and the young children
25.25 It’s my nature to love young children
25.27Caption: NUON CHEA on Saddam Hussein
News Reader (on tv): These chilling uncensored images of Saddam Hussein’s final moments are at the centre of an awkward Iraqi government investigation, into itself.
25.45 I was shocked
25.47 Not out of fear, but because I felt sorry for him.
25.55 I also respect his spirit
26.04 I don’t know what past mistakes he’s made, but he was a man of honour
26.14 He showed that when they took him for execution
26.27 The new generation should think about his honour
26.39 What shocked me the most was…
26.45 …this was the end of a patriot in an unfair society
26.57 Saddam Hussein was a patriotic symbol
27.14 Despite his arrest he showed he was a winner not a loser
27.31 Saddam could have easily escaped across the border to Syria or somewhere
27.37 But he didn’t run away
27.43 Instead he stayed and his so he could lead the resistance- that shows his patriotic spirit
27.48 Was that the first time you’ve seen a human being executed in that way?
27.53 Yes. I’ve never seen anone hanged before. That was the first time
Caption: © 2011 Old Street Films/Thet Sambeth