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 -  I am Julian Assange,

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 (radio chattering)

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 editor of WikiLeaks.

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 We've exposed the world's secrets,

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 - These documents belong to the

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 United States government.

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 -  been attacked by the powerful,

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 - United States strongly condemns.

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 - And quit asking questions.

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 - He broke the law.

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 - Illegally shoot the son of a (censored).

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 -  For 500 days now, I've been

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 detained without charge,

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 but that hasn't stopped us.

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 (speech distorted)

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 (crowd chanting)

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 Today, we're on a quest for revolutionary ideas

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 that can change the world tomorrow.

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 During the last year, the Middle East

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 has been shaken by rebel movements,

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 and Tunisia is the country where it all started.

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 Today, I talk to the first president

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 of the new Tunisia, Moncef Marzouki,

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 a medical doctor and human rights activist by training,

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 Marzouki is cut from a very different cloth

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 than his flamboyant and corrupt predecessor, Ben Ali.

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 Exiled and imprisoned under the Ben Ali regime,

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 Mazouki is considered to have the greatest

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 moral authority of all Arab leaders,

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 but I wonder, how long can it last?

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 The transformation of Tunisia is far from complete,

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 and President Masouki must now face

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 the realities of power.

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 - Mr. President, can you hear me?

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 - Hello, how are you, Mr. Assange?

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 - It is very nice to see you.

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 - You know I have always been very

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 admiring of the job you have done,

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 and I think, really, we...

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 I wish you the best, you know,

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 and if you ever have some problems,

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 you would be welcome in Tunisia.

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 - Thank you. (laughs)

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 So you were imprisoned back in 1993,

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 and I was in prison in 2010,

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 but this experience was very interesting for me,

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 how to survive solitary confinement,

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 and I think, perhaps, everyone should go through

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 this experience, just once.

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 Can you tell me how you survived prison?

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 - Well, I just spent four months

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 in solitary confinement, but Hamadi Jebali,

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 which is the prime minister in Tunisia,

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 spent more than 10 years in solitary confinement,

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 and I always admired him.

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 I never understood how he could

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 survive through this kind of experience,

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 because, after just four months,

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 I was just talking to myself, you know.

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 I really got crazy.

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 I went crazy because when you have

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 just to talk to yourself,

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 to be alone with yourself

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 all this time, it's a terrible experience.

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 This is why I think it's a kind of

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 psychological torture,

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 and so many people say,

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 "Look, you have never been tortured in prison.",

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 and I use to say, "No, I was under torture,

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 "but it was another kind of torture,

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 "and probably one of the worst."

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 I think that more than 30,000 people

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 have been tortured in Tunisia,

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 and I was angry for them,

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 and I was angry for these people

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 who can hold the torture,

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 and then go back to home

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 and play with their children, and listen to music,

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 and have a normal life.

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 I never understood how

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 can you accept the things like this

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 and be sure that you are still a human being.

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 How can you survive through this kind of experience?

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 I think when you know this,

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 when you know that you are fighting

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 for human rights, for good values,

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 then you can have enough resistance

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 to tackle the situation.

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 - These people who took action against you

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 and your friends, in Tunisia, under the Ben Ali regime,

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 the former head of Intelligence, for example,

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 do you meet them now

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 that you are president? - [Moncef] Yes.

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 - And what do they say?

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 Do they apologize?

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 - No, no they don't apologize.

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 They all say, "Look, we obeyed orders.

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 "We are just civil servants.",

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 and this, for me, is completely unacceptable

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 because I think that everybody has to have

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 his own will, that he has to face

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 his own responsibility, and it's too easy

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 to say, "I was just obeying orders.",

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 and I can't accept this kind of excuse

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 because it's a sign also the fact

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 those people are not only cold, cruel,

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 but also they don't have any kind of

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 dignity, any kind of honor.

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 We have to accept your own responsibility

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 and to say, "Look, I did it.

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 "Sorry, I was wrong.", but I never heard

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 any one of them saying, "Sorry, I was wrong."

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 - You said that the first victim

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 of a dictatorship is its intelligence services.

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 What did you mean by that?

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 - I think because those people because

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 they just accept, obey the dictator.

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 They give up everything,

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 their humanity, their honor,

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 just for being there, for sharing

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 the power, and that they are also

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 the victims of the system,

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 and you probably know that the people

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 perpetrating torture they always

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 and in very sad situations,

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 some of them become ill,

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 some of them commit suicide,

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 and I think torture destroys not only

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 the people who are submitted to torture,

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 but also the people torturing other people,

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 so yes, it's terrible thing, for both sides,

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 for the people committing torture

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 and the people submitted to torture.

00:06:05.24 --> 00:06:09.18

 - In the United States, we have an alleged source,

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 the alleged source of the diplomatic cables

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 which included materials that came out

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 in Tunisia about Ben Ali.

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 His name is Bradley Manning,

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 and he was in solitary confinement for 10 months.

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 What do you say about the United States

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 and its role, once leading human rights

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 and now engaged in torture?

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 - Well, when you have torture

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 under dictatorship, it seems so normal.

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 Of course it's not normal, it's horrible,

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 but when you have this kind of

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 problems under a democratic state,

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 and when you face people coming from

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 this government talking about human rights and so forth,

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 it seems so ridiculous, you know.

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 I remember two years ago...

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 No, four years ago, I was invited

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 to Washington by an NGO to talk about

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 human rights in Tunisia,

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 and I was invited to meet

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 some important person

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 in the White House dealing with

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 human rights issues.

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 I said, "No, I'm not going to meet this person

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 "because it would be ridiculous to talk with this guy.",

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 knowing very well that he was probably

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 implicated in the Guantanamo problem.

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 You cannot take seriously who was implicated

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 in torture in his own country,

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 and then this guy is going to give you

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 some lesson about how to promote

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 human rights in Tunisia.

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 This is why I didn't accept to meet him.

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 - What is the status now of the intelligence

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 services in Tunisia?

00:07:50.18 --> 00:07:52.12

 As you are head of the armed forces,

00:07:52.12 --> 00:07:54.10

 you are commander-in-chief of the armed forces,

00:07:54.10 --> 00:07:58.08

 are you also head of the intelligence services?

00:08:00.01 --> 00:08:01.12

 - It's very difficult situation because

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 we have to tackle the problem very cautiously.

00:08:04.22 --> 00:08:07.18

 We have to remove them one by one,

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 but most important thing for me is

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 we are going to face some hard issues

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 like the sal-a-fees movement,

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 extreme right-wing movement here in Tunisia,

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 and they can be a danger to democracy,

00:08:26.21 --> 00:08:29.12

 and we have to tackle the problem

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 from the political point of view.

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 We have to discuss with them and so forth,

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 but some of them are not accepting to

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 have any kind of political discussion,

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 and some of them are going to present

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 a kind of threat against democracy.

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 So when I talk with the

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 police and the army leaders,

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 I said, "Look, we have to take this problem

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 "very cautiously, but please,

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 "no more torture, and fair trial

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 "like we have had under the dictatorships."

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 We have to take this problem very seriously,

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 but to stick on the human rights values.

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 They watched me very...

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 Wondering if I was serious,

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 and I said, "Yes, I am serious.

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 "Yes, I am serious, no more torture in Tunisia."

00:09:16.04 --> 00:09:19.17

 - Have you seen your own intelligence file

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 kept by Ben Ali now that you're president,

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 the record of spying on you?

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 - Yes, I'm very curious about having

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 this file, but, in fact, I didn't have time,

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 but I have got some files about

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 political (mumbles)

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 now to the system, and I said,

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 "I'm not going to work with this kind of (mumbles).

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 "I'm not going to threaten this guy

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 "with this kind of tools."

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 I don't want to know about what happened

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 I'm not interested in threatening

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 my political opponent by the same tools

00:10:01.17 --> 00:10:03.19

 that was used against me.

00:10:08.02 --> 00:10:10.23

 - As WikiLeaks, and a publisher, of course,

00:10:10.23 --> 00:10:14.00

 we saw what happened in Egypt

00:10:14.00 --> 00:10:16.13

 when the am-dow-wah, the Egyptian secret service,

00:10:16.13 --> 00:10:19.17

 was looted, and these files came out,

00:10:19.17 --> 00:10:21.08

 and started to describing

00:10:21.08 --> 00:10:22.23

 what was really happening there,

00:10:22.23 --> 00:10:24.19

 and as someone who was following

00:10:24.19 --> 00:10:28.09

 this revolution in Egypt very, very closely

00:10:28.09 --> 00:10:30.15

 and trying to get out material

00:10:30.15 --> 00:10:33.04

 about Mubarak, and Suleman, and so on,

00:10:33.04 --> 00:10:36.19

 I knew the Egyptian Revolution had succeeded

00:10:36.19 --> 00:10:38.21

 in a very important way

00:10:38.21 --> 00:10:43.02

 when the archives of the am-daw-wah finally came out.

00:10:43.02 --> 00:10:44.10

 That was the end

00:10:45.10 --> 00:10:47.08

 of the secret police

00:10:47.08 --> 00:10:50.01

 or a new chapter in the secret police.

00:10:50.01 --> 00:10:53.15

 So it seems to me that that is the true way

00:10:55.01 --> 00:10:58.02

 to make sure that one cannot go back,

00:10:58.02 --> 00:11:01.04

 is to reveal the inner secrets

00:11:01.04 --> 00:11:03.23

 of the previous regime to everyone,

00:11:03.23 --> 00:11:05.19

 so that everyone may take part in them,

00:11:05.19 --> 00:11:09.09

 even if this creates some kind of conflict

00:11:09.09 --> 00:11:10.15

 in the society.

00:11:11.15 --> 00:11:14.15

 Will you open the Tunisian archives?

00:11:16.20 --> 00:11:18.06

 - Yes, to historians,

00:11:18.06 --> 00:11:20.01

 yes, to historians because I think

00:11:20.01 --> 00:11:23.16

 it's our duty to know what happened,

00:11:23.16 --> 00:11:25.24

 but I am not interested in having

00:11:25.24 --> 00:11:28.02

 a knowing who will write,

00:11:29.15 --> 00:11:31.07

 who wrote about me.

00:11:31.07 --> 00:11:33.05

 It's useless, you know.

00:11:34.11 --> 00:11:37.10

 I would like to have the general picture,

00:11:37.10 --> 00:11:38.24

 what happened exactly,

00:11:38.24 --> 00:11:40.14

 how was the system,

00:11:41.21 --> 00:11:43.13

 but I'm not interested in

00:11:43.13 --> 00:11:45.24

 convicting people and saying,

00:11:46.24 --> 00:11:49.17

 "You have done this and you have done that."

00:11:49.17 --> 00:11:53.02

 because it could be very, very dangerous.

00:11:54.07 --> 00:11:57.11

 It's important to know, to remember,

00:11:57.11 --> 00:11:59.04

 but, sometimes, it's also important

00:11:59.04 --> 00:12:02.03

 to not know and to forget.

00:12:02.03 --> 00:12:04.14

 - Is there pressure on you from other people

00:12:04.14 --> 00:12:06.19

 in the Tunisian government

00:12:06.19 --> 00:12:09.00

 to keep these files closed?

00:12:10.17 --> 00:12:12.24

 - No, no, there is no pressure.

00:12:12.24 --> 00:12:14.13

 This is my choice.

00:12:14.13 --> 00:12:16.12

 My choice is to be very careful

00:12:16.12 --> 00:12:19.14

 because, once again, we have to know,

00:12:20.21 --> 00:12:24.09

 but we have also to forget and to forgive.

00:12:25.16 --> 00:12:28.18

 - You said before there are certain red lines

00:12:28.18 --> 00:12:31.24

 about information, that sometimes truth is good.

00:12:31.24 --> 00:12:34.12

 Sometimes truth is bad,

00:12:34.12 --> 00:12:37.24

 and, recently, the Tunisian internet

00:12:37.24 --> 00:12:40.18

 has been censoring some webpages,

00:12:41.22 --> 00:12:45.06

 but in order to censor even one webpage,

00:12:47.04 --> 00:12:49.15

 you must spy on every request

00:12:51.08 --> 00:12:53.07

 that someone is making

00:12:53.07 --> 00:12:55.17

 to see if you should deny it.

00:12:57.11 --> 00:12:59.13

 Do you think that this is right,

00:12:59.13 --> 00:13:01.16

 that that is the correct line?

00:13:01.16 --> 00:13:05.03

 - (mumbles) I think that censorship

00:13:05.03 --> 00:13:07.24

 on the internet is useless, first,

00:13:07.24 --> 00:13:10.05

 first, it's useless, impossible,

00:13:10.05 --> 00:13:12.16

 and counterproductive.

00:13:12.16 --> 00:13:14.15

 As a human rights activist,

00:13:14.15 --> 00:13:17.15

 I prefer the side effect of total

00:13:17.15 --> 00:13:19.20

 freedom of expression,

00:13:19.20 --> 00:13:22.13

 to the good effects, if I might say,

00:13:22.13 --> 00:13:24.02

 to the censorship.

00:13:24.02 --> 00:13:27.02

 So I always said I am against

00:13:27.02 --> 00:13:29.07

 any kind of censorship on internet

00:13:29.07 --> 00:13:32.03

 or on any other way of expression.

00:13:36.14 --> 00:13:40.04

 - I spoke two weeks ago to Hassan Nasrallah

00:13:41.23 --> 00:13:43.13

 and I asked him why

00:13:44.17 --> 00:13:47.15

 was there a difference between his position

00:13:47.15 --> 00:13:51.04

 for Syria and Tunisians position for Syria.

00:13:52.14 --> 00:13:54.20

 There seems to be a switch.

00:13:56.02 --> 00:13:58.22

 Hassan Nasrallah is soft on Syria.

00:14:01.10 --> 00:14:03.16

 Tunisia is soft on Bahrain.

00:14:06.12 --> 00:14:08.15

 Tunisia is hard on Syria,

00:14:09.14 --> 00:14:12.22

 and Hassan Nasrallah is hard on Bahrain,

00:14:14.01 --> 00:14:15.05

 on the Bahrainian government

00:14:15.05 --> 00:14:17.21

 and the abuses happening there.

00:14:17.21 --> 00:14:19.13

 Why is this?

00:14:19.13 --> 00:14:23.01

 - I mean, the dictatorship that Syria,

00:14:23.01 --> 00:14:24.17

 that the Syrian people is suffering from

00:14:24.17 --> 00:14:26.04

 is exactly the same that

00:14:26.04 --> 00:14:28.23

 in Tunisia before the revolution.

00:14:29.24 --> 00:14:32.13

 This is why we feel very close

00:14:32.13 --> 00:14:34.23

 to the Syrian people who understand

00:14:34.23 --> 00:14:37.09

 what they are feeling because

00:14:38.05 --> 00:14:40.01

 they are fighting against corruption,

00:14:40.01 --> 00:14:41.06

 against brutality,

00:14:41.06 --> 00:14:43.11

 against the state of fear,

00:14:46.13 --> 00:14:48.21

 and we feel very, very close with them

00:14:48.21 --> 00:14:51.18

 because sometimes we feel that we have

00:14:51.18 --> 00:14:54.04

 also some responsibility because

00:14:54.04 --> 00:14:57.02

 I can say that if we didn't have

00:14:57.02 --> 00:14:58.14

 the revolution here in Tunisia,

00:14:58.14 --> 00:15:01.18

 probably, it wouldn't happen in Syria or in Egypt.

00:15:01.18 --> 00:15:04.24

 So we feel this kind of responsibility.

00:15:04.24 --> 00:15:06.13

 We feel very close.

00:15:06.13 --> 00:15:07.13

 We understand them,

00:15:07.13 --> 00:15:10.02

 and we feel that their fight for democracy,

00:15:10.02 --> 00:15:12.07

 for human rights, is our own,

00:15:12.07 --> 00:15:15.11

 and we have to support them,

00:15:15.11 --> 00:15:18.05

 and we have to forget about this

00:15:18.05 --> 00:15:20.23

 Nasrallah and the people like him

00:15:22.05 --> 00:15:23.22

 think that Syria is,

00:15:25.01 --> 00:15:28.02

 because he's against Israel,

00:15:28.02 --> 00:15:31.16

 they can forgive to this dictatorship everything,

00:15:31.16 --> 00:15:33.22

 but here in Tunisia, we don't have this problem.

00:15:33.22 --> 00:15:35.14

 We are not interested in the fight

00:15:35.14 --> 00:15:38.11

 between Israel and Syria.

00:15:38.11 --> 00:15:41.20

 What is important to us is that this

00:15:41.20 --> 00:15:45.19

 people is suffering from what we suffered

00:15:45.19 --> 00:15:48.02

 so much from, and this is why we

00:15:48.02 --> 00:15:51.15

 totally support Syria, the Syrian people

00:15:51.15 --> 00:15:53.05

 against his dictatorship,

00:15:53.05 --> 00:15:57.18

 as well, as you know, we fight against our own,

00:15:57.18 --> 00:15:59.16

 so I can't understand that here in Tunisia,

00:15:59.16 --> 00:16:01.24

 because we have some people here in Tunisia

00:16:01.24 --> 00:16:04.05

 supporting the Syrian dictatorship

00:16:04.05 --> 00:16:06.17

 saying it's patriotic dictatorship,

00:16:06.17 --> 00:16:10.15

 and we do know that there's no patriotic dictatorship.

00:16:10.15 --> 00:16:12.01

 There's no good dictatorship.

00:16:12.01 --> 00:16:14.13

 Dictatorship is dictatorship,

00:16:14.13 --> 00:16:16.01

 corrupted, brutal,

00:16:19.07 --> 00:16:21.04

 and against his people,

00:16:22.14 --> 00:16:24.16

 and really, I can't understand

00:16:24.16 --> 00:16:26.04

 the position of Nasrallah.

00:16:26.04 --> 00:16:28.11

 I can tell you that Nasrallah was very, very

00:16:28.11 --> 00:16:30.03

 popular after the, you know,

00:16:30.03 --> 00:16:31.23

 in 2006 because of the

00:16:33.18 --> 00:16:35.13

 battle against Israel,

00:16:38.00 --> 00:16:41.10

 but now, his popularity is completely

00:16:41.10 --> 00:16:43.10

 finished here in Tunisia

00:16:44.07 --> 00:16:46.06

 and the whole Arab world.

00:16:46.06 --> 00:16:49.05

 - You have offered the ruler of Syria,

00:16:49.05 --> 00:16:52.19

 Bashar al-Assad, asylum in Tunisia,

00:16:52.19 --> 00:16:55.15

 but is that really a credible offer?

00:16:55.15 --> 00:16:57.06

 - What's important for us

00:16:57.06 --> 00:17:00.06

 is that the bloodshed ends in Syria.

00:17:01.03 --> 00:17:02.07

 This is the most important thing.

00:17:02.07 --> 00:17:04.16

 This is why I said, "Look, we have the

00:17:04.16 --> 00:17:06.07

 "eminent scenario.

00:17:06.07 --> 00:17:07.24

 "It could be a good solution for

00:17:07.24 --> 00:17:10.11

 "Syrian people.", and they said,

00:17:10.11 --> 00:17:13.21

 "Why this guy not go to Russia.",

00:17:13.21 --> 00:17:15.16

 and the Russians said, "We are not interested

00:17:15.16 --> 00:17:17.23

 "in having him.", and a journalist asked me,

00:17:17.23 --> 00:17:21.13

 "Would you be interested in having this man if",

00:17:21.13 --> 00:17:25.10

 and I said, "Of course, if this would be a solution",

00:17:25.10 --> 00:17:27.07

 but I know, probably, you know

00:17:27.07 --> 00:17:29.11

 also that Assad will never ask

00:17:29.11 --> 00:17:31.14

 asylum in Tunisia, so it's

00:17:31.14 --> 00:17:33.06

 not credible question,

00:17:33.06 --> 00:17:35.14

 and not a credible position.

00:17:37.04 --> 00:17:40.21

 Of course, he would probably flee to Russia

00:17:40.21 --> 00:17:42.13

 or to any other country,

00:17:42.13 --> 00:17:44.16

 but never to Tunisia.

00:17:44.16 --> 00:17:46.14

 - You held this conference recently in Tunisia

00:17:46.14 --> 00:17:48.16

 at the Friends of Syria

00:17:48.16 --> 00:17:50.11

 which include, and coming to that

00:17:50.11 --> 00:17:52.09

 was Hillary Clinton and many

00:17:52.09 --> 00:17:55.14

 other powerful people from the West

00:17:55.14 --> 00:17:57.08

 and from the region.

00:17:57.08 --> 00:18:00.14

 Information that we released recently

00:18:00.14 --> 00:18:03.10

 showed that the US security sector

00:18:05.06 --> 00:18:08.05

 is of the belief that there are US Special Forces

00:18:08.05 --> 00:18:11.13

 already in Syria and that arms and money

00:18:11.13 --> 00:18:14.21

 flow into Syria to the Syrian resistance.

00:18:14.21 --> 00:18:18.12

 You have said that you do not believe

00:18:18.12 --> 00:18:20.07

 in foreign intervention for Syria,

00:18:20.07 --> 00:18:21.24

 and you do not believe that Tunisia

00:18:21.24 --> 00:18:25.16

 should supply arms to the Syrian resistance,

00:18:25.16 --> 00:18:28.20

 but what about intelligence support,

00:18:28.20 --> 00:18:30.13

 what about training,

00:18:30.13 --> 00:18:33.01

 weapons training within Syria?

00:18:34.03 --> 00:18:36.09

 Will Tunisia also offer a base

00:18:36.09 --> 00:18:38.11

 to the Syrian opposition?

00:18:42.21 --> 00:18:44.22

 - As I told you, we are not supporting

00:18:44.22 --> 00:18:48.11

 any kind of foreign intervention in Syria.

00:18:48.11 --> 00:18:51.07

 I do believe that giving weapons to Syrians

00:18:51.07 --> 00:18:53.01

 would lead to civil war.

00:18:53.01 --> 00:18:54.24

 I think it's not a good choice.

00:18:54.24 --> 00:18:57.04

 I still believe that the only solution

00:18:57.04 --> 00:18:59.04

 must be political,

00:18:59.04 --> 00:19:01.23

 and that we have to find a common

00:19:04.06 --> 00:19:06.23

 ground between opposition and the regime.

00:19:06.23 --> 00:19:09.10

 I still believe that the only solution

00:19:09.10 --> 00:19:11.02

 is the Yemeni scenario.

00:19:11.02 --> 00:19:12.21

 This is my position, this is the position

00:19:12.21 --> 00:19:14.06

 of Tunisia, and of course,

00:19:14.06 --> 00:19:15.21

 we are against any kind of intervention

00:19:15.21 --> 00:19:17.19

 wherever it comes from.

00:19:19.15 --> 00:19:23.05

 - Your party received 8.7% of the vote

00:19:24.07 --> 00:19:26.17

 during the Tunisian election,

00:19:26.17 --> 00:19:29.15

 and the more Islamic party received

00:19:31.02 --> 00:19:34.15

 37% of the vote during that election,

00:19:36.05 --> 00:19:39.15

 but you personally have 60% approval

00:19:40.22 --> 00:19:42.23

 by the Tunisian public.

00:19:42.23 --> 00:19:46.15

 What percent of power do you think you have?

00:19:49.02 --> 00:19:53.12

 - Well, let me tell you, first, in the West,

00:19:53.12 --> 00:19:55.15

 people think that Tunisia

00:19:56.11 --> 00:19:59.02

 and Egypt the political Islamist

00:20:01.13 --> 00:20:04.06

 is prevailing on democracy,

00:20:04.06 --> 00:20:06.10

 and it's exactly the contrary.

00:20:06.10 --> 00:20:08.14

 I think that we here in Tunisia

00:20:08.14 --> 00:20:11.06

 the center part of the spectrum,

00:20:12.06 --> 00:20:14.11

 the Islamist part,

00:20:14.11 --> 00:20:16.14

 the central part of the spectrum,

00:20:16.14 --> 00:20:18.16

 the Islamist spectrum

00:20:18.16 --> 00:20:21.12

 is now part of the democratic system

00:20:21.12 --> 00:20:22.23

 and the democratic game,

00:20:22.23 --> 00:20:25.20

 so I can say that democracy prevails

00:20:25.20 --> 00:20:27.09

 on Islamic movement

00:20:30.08 --> 00:20:32.24

 because the Islamist became democrats,

00:20:32.24 --> 00:20:35.03

 and we did as a (mumbles).

00:20:35.03 --> 00:20:39.08

 We didn't become Islamists. (talking over each other)

00:20:39.08 --> 00:20:40.18

 - This is a move.

00:20:40.18 --> 00:20:42.10

 - This is important because

00:20:42.10 --> 00:20:43.18

 I'm very surprised

00:20:43.18 --> 00:20:46.07

 the way that the Western people

00:20:46.07 --> 00:20:49.02

 are looking to Tunisia or to Egypt

00:20:50.04 --> 00:20:53.03

 saying, "Look, now Islamists are

00:20:53.03 --> 00:20:55.09

 "in the government and they

00:20:56.07 --> 00:20:57.24

 "have the majority in the parliament."

00:20:57.24 --> 00:20:59.11

 Yes, they have the majority in the parliament,

00:20:59.11 --> 00:21:01.02

 but in a democratic parliament,

00:21:01.02 --> 00:21:02.13

 and they were elected

00:21:02.13 --> 00:21:05.08

 by democratic elections,

00:21:05.08 --> 00:21:06.14

 and now they are playing

00:21:06.14 --> 00:21:09.23

 the part of the democratic game.

00:21:09.23 --> 00:21:12.21

 This is why I can say that

00:21:12.21 --> 00:21:16.07

 democracy prevails after the revolution

00:21:16.07 --> 00:21:17.20

 and not the Islamist movement,

00:21:17.20 --> 00:21:20.05

 even if the Islamsists were elected

00:21:20.05 --> 00:21:22.13

 more than the seculars in the government.

00:21:22.13 --> 00:21:24.01

 This very, very important.

00:21:24.01 --> 00:21:26.05

 As far as I'm concerned,

00:21:26.05 --> 00:21:28.23

 I think the most important thing,

00:21:31.22 --> 00:21:34.17

 power I have is a symbolic one

00:21:34.17 --> 00:21:36.22

 because here in Tunisia, I'm supposed to be

00:21:36.22 --> 00:21:39.15

 the president of all Tunisians,

00:21:39.15 --> 00:21:42.23

 Islamists, seculars, and I'm trying

00:21:42.23 --> 00:21:47.02

 to play this role of being the president

00:21:47.02 --> 00:21:49.06

 of all Tunisia, having a discussion

00:21:49.06 --> 00:21:50.24

 with all political parties,

00:21:50.24 --> 00:21:53.18

 trying to get people closer,

00:21:53.18 --> 00:21:55.08

 and this is very, very important,

00:21:55.08 --> 00:21:56.14

 and this is not

00:21:57.10 --> 00:22:00.07

 even known that this is the most

00:22:00.07 --> 00:22:02.18

 important function that I have.

00:22:02.18 --> 00:22:04.07

 - So I imagine this is

00:22:04.07 --> 00:22:05.22

 very hard for you.

00:22:05.22 --> 00:22:07.24

 The way I see things and the leaders

00:22:07.24 --> 00:22:11.06

 I have dealt with, and in my position also,

00:22:11.06 --> 00:22:14.07

 there are so many forced moves

00:22:14.07 --> 00:22:16.05

 that one had to suffer,

00:22:17.06 --> 00:22:19.07

 one is forced by a situation,

00:22:19.07 --> 00:22:22.09

 or limited ability to act in a certain way,

00:22:22.09 --> 00:22:24.16

 even though your conscience wants to act

00:22:24.16 --> 00:22:26.08

 in another way.

00:22:26.08 --> 00:22:29.15

 Were you surprised by the lack of power

00:22:30.16 --> 00:22:32.12

 in becoming president,

00:22:32.12 --> 00:22:35.12

 the lack of ability to push the program

00:22:35.12 --> 00:22:36.21

 you wanted to push,

00:22:36.21 --> 00:22:39.16

 the compromises you had to make?

00:22:39.16 --> 00:22:41.16

 - Yes, I think, I'm discovering

00:22:41.16 --> 00:22:44.09

 the fact to be head of state doesn't mean

00:22:44.09 --> 00:22:46.11

 you have all the power,

00:22:46.11 --> 00:22:49.07

 and my frustration is now probably

00:22:50.03 --> 00:22:53.04

 the most important feeling I have every day.

00:22:53.04 --> 00:22:55.07

 I can just give you one example.

00:22:55.07 --> 00:22:57.09

 Now we are tackling huge problem

00:22:57.09 --> 00:22:59.12

 of Bar-dad He-mode-ee.

00:22:59.12 --> 00:23:02.12

 He's in Tunisia having hunger strike

00:23:04.15 --> 00:23:07.17

 because he's asking for his release,

00:23:07.17 --> 00:23:09.03

 but I can't release him because

00:23:09.03 --> 00:23:11.09

 Libya is asking for him,

00:23:11.09 --> 00:23:13.14

 and we have a lot of common interests

00:23:13.14 --> 00:23:17.03

 with Libya, but given back this man to Libya

00:23:17.03 --> 00:23:20.03

 means he could have an unfair trial,

00:23:21.21 --> 00:23:24.07

 and I told my Libyan friend

00:23:24.07 --> 00:23:26.10

 that the honor of Tunisia and my

00:23:26.10 --> 00:23:28.15

 self honor as human rights activist

00:23:28.15 --> 00:23:31.15

 I can't just give this man to Libya,

00:23:35.24 --> 00:23:38.09

 but I'm facing huge pressure

00:23:38.09 --> 00:23:41.20

 from outside and inside the country

00:23:41.20 --> 00:23:44.10

 to give this man to Libya,

00:23:44.10 --> 00:23:46.21

 and I have every day to say, "No, no,

00:23:46.21 --> 00:23:48.10

 "we have to stick to our position.",

00:23:48.10 --> 00:23:51.17

 and it's very difficult to conciliate

00:23:51.17 --> 00:23:54.03

 the human rights activists' opinions

00:23:54.03 --> 00:23:57.10

 and the duty of head of state.

00:23:57.10 --> 00:24:00.02

 - What else has changed for you?

00:24:01.22 --> 00:24:04.06

 - Well, I'm still the same person.

00:24:04.06 --> 00:24:05.21

 I'm still the human rights activist.

00:24:05.21 --> 00:24:08.06

 I still believe in my values,

00:24:09.04 --> 00:24:13.06

 and I try to be faithful to all these values.

00:24:13.06 --> 00:24:16.05

 I think I'm not going to change.

00:24:16.05 --> 00:24:18.13

 I will stick to my opinions.

00:24:19.13 --> 00:24:21.20

 Of course, its' sometimes very difficult

00:24:21.20 --> 00:24:24.21

 because I have also to remember

00:24:24.21 --> 00:24:26.12

 that I'm head of state,

00:24:26.12 --> 00:24:28.04

 and I have to be very careful when I talk.

00:24:28.04 --> 00:24:30.18

 This is sometimes very painful,

00:24:30.18 --> 00:24:33.04

 but I'm still, as I told you,

00:24:35.04 --> 00:24:38.04

 I am convinced that I have to be

00:24:38.04 --> 00:24:39.24

 faithful to my values,

00:24:39.24 --> 00:24:43.16

 and people are expecting me to be the same person,

00:24:43.16 --> 00:24:44.22

 and I will try.

00:24:47.04 --> 00:24:51.09

 I try to be the head of state of Tunisia,

00:24:51.09 --> 00:24:55.00

 but also the human right activist I was always.

00:24:55.00 --> 00:24:57.23

 - Thank you very much, Mr. President.

00:24:57.23 --> 00:25:00.01

 - As I told you, I'm very grateful

00:25:00.01 --> 00:25:01.16

 to all what you have done

00:25:01.16 --> 00:25:04.03

 for promoting human rights,

00:25:04.03 --> 00:25:08.14

 truth, and I admire and support your efforts,

00:25:08.14 --> 00:25:11.16

 and please, I wish you all the best.

00:25:11.16 --> 00:25:14.19

 I hope to see you once in Tunisia

00:25:14.19 --> 00:25:16.19

 if you can come.

00:25:16.19 --> 00:25:18.02

 You will be welcome here

00:25:18.02 --> 00:25:21.01

 in this new democratic country.

00:25:21.01 --> 00:25:23.23

 - Thank you, and thank you for the crew

00:25:23.23 --> 00:25:27.13

 at both ends for arranging this, good luck.

00:25:28.13 --> 00:25:29.13

 - Thank you.

00:25:30.17 --> 00:25:32.21

 So goodbye, and good luck.

00:25:34.04 --> 00:25:35.24

 (upbeat music)

00:25:35.24 --> 00:25:37.24

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00:25:37.24 --> 00:25:40.11

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00:25:40.11 --> 00:25:43.03

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00:25:43.03 --> 00:25:45.20

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00:25:45.20 --> 00:25:48.21

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