00:00:01.01 --> 00:00:02.22

 - I am Julian Assange,

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 (muffled speaking over walkie-talkie)

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 editor of WikiLeaks.

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 We've exposed the world's secrets.

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 - These documents belong to the United States government.

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 - Been attacked by the powerful.

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 - The United States strongly condemns

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 - Hey, quit asking questions.

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 - He broke the law.

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 - Illegally shoot the son of a bitch.

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 - For 500 days now I've been detained without charge,

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 but that hasn't stopped us.

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 Fight back!

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 - Fight back!

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 - Today we're on a quest for revolutionary ideas

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 that can change the world tomorrow.

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 This week I speak to

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 the leader of the Malaysian opposition, Anwar Ibrahim,

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 as a rising internal rival to

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 the former Prime Minister Mahathir.

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 Anwar was in prison for five years

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 after being smeared with sex allegations.

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 As a result of a popular campaign in 2004,

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 his conviction was overturned

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 and he was released from prison.

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 In 2008, he was again targeted with sex crimes allegations.

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 He won the case early this year.

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 With Malaysian elections looming

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 and Anwar tipped to win,

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 he is now being charged with unauthorized assembly.

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 If found convicted, he will be prevented from running.

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 I want to know how has he survived

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 and what does he see as the future of Asia and the West.

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 Anwar Ibrahim, you were a student activist

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 from your early days within Malaysia

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 and you were imprisoned as a young man.

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 Can you tell me a little bit about

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 what your big political progression is over this time?

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 - I was arrested for supporting farmers in the north,

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 demanding some fairer treatment from the government.

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 I did two years in detention without trial,

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 there was Internal Security Act,

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 but later when Mahathir became prime minister,

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 he came with a mission clearly as a reformer,

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 and I was, frankly, attracted to that.

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 We had a series of discussions

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 and I joined on this reform platform.

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 I came up very fast to become deputy prime minister

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 only to be sent back for six years imprisonment.

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 - Under Mahathir, there are a number of people

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 who came up to the position of being deputy prime minister

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 and were cast out one by one,

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 but your fall from grace was the most dramatic.

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 Can you tell me what happened?

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 - I was of course badly assaulted

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 the first day I was sent to police custody.

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 I was sent then to solitary confinement in prison.

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 It was of course not a bed of roses, it was tough.

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 Initially I was not given even books to read,

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 but the international media and friends internationally

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 did voice out

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 and I think finally they did concede and allowed books,

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 and I thought I'd become slightly smarter,

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 being able to read the complete works of Shakespeare

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 four and a half times.

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 That's rare.

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 (laughing)

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 All the classics, Boris Pasternak and Tolstoy,

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 you re-read them in prison and it's interesting.

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 From the prism of prison walls,

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 you understand, you appreciate better.

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 There's no interruption,

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 you immerse yourself in the storyline.

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 Sometimes a bit depressing of course (laughs)

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 having to look at the walls,

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 but you become part player.

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 I've never internalized or appreciated

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 King Lear, the dialogue with Cordelia

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 until in solitary confinement.

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 - When I was in prison and I read Cancer Ward,

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 this book by Solzhenitsyn,

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 which is a very, a wonderful book,

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 but very, very depressing and very brutal,

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 but I felt, well, there's worse places I could be.

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 I could be in a Siberian cancer ward with cancer,

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 for instance.

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 (laughing)

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 What did you feel as, this is of interest to me

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 because I have a number of friends who have been imprisoned,

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 you're view about how to handle the experience.

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 Did you have a method?

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 How did you control the perception of the passage of time

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 and things like this?

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 - Well, it was tough.

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 Now you think it may sound easy,

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 but at that particular time it was very tough

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 because my kids were small then,

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 the youngest was still in kindergarten

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 and the time I was arrested

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 I could just picture their anguish and despair.

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 But what gave you some strength,

00:05:04.08 --> 00:05:08.23

 prison officers and guards were extremely friendly.

00:05:08.23 --> 00:05:12.14

 They were very scared, there were cameras all around,

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 but you can sense their sympathy and support.

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 That keeps you going

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 because then there are some whisperings

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 about what was happening, demonstrations outside,

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 but otherwise, I just kept myself very busy.

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 Not always serious, I've got to be very honest.

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 I spent long, not long hours,

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 but in the washroom or the bathroom

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 singing The Beatles or Ricky Nelson or Elvis Presley.

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 (laughing)

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 - And while you're inside,

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 outside your wife is pushing forward a big campaign

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 for your release.

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 Did you have any idea how big this movement was

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 that she had created while you were inside?

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 - Not really,

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 but from the whisperings and missives from the guards,

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 who sometimes let us smuggle in,

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 I realized.

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 I remember some of the prison officers would tell me,

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 "I attended the rally 10 miles of Kuala Lumpur

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 "and then we heard your wife and speeches."

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 And I said, "How many attended?"

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 They said, "At least 20,000 people!"

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 So I felt there's something real happening in Kuala Lumpur.

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 And I could of course sense that

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 because the day I was arrested

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 we had for the first time the biggest every rally

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 in the history of Malaysia, 100,0000 people.

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 I felt greatly encouraged in terms of news

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 from the prison guards.

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 They would tell me, "Yeah, we were there."

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 And many of them on the quiet became members of the party.

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 - Did you have a sense of being part of Malaysian history,

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 of being part of something bigger than yourself

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 when you heard about these protests outside

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 and the movement surrounding trying to get you out?

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 - You trust in the wisdom of the masses.

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 How is it that you can gather 100,000 people

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 without that sophistication,

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 without media access,

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 but could still reflect based on

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 the dictates of their conscience or the habits of the heart.

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 - How did you get out?

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 In the end, why were you released from prison,

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 what was the finding?

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 - In this case what happened was

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 they persuaded the federal court to suggest that

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 well, we do believe Anwar may be a bit guilty,

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 but there was no clear evidence

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 and therefore his appeal is accepted.

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 - So you come back into Malaysia

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 and in the lead up to 2008,

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 an extraordinary year in Malaysian politics,

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 you try and get elected to parliament.

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 What happens during that year?

00:08:10.13 --> 00:08:12.13

 - We worked very hard,

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 we don't have any access to the media,

00:08:15.19 --> 00:08:19.23

 the entire media was skewed to support the ruling party.

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 Even today as leader of the opposition,

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 I don't have even one minute of airtime.

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 That's why I decided to (laughing)

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 accepted your invitation.

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 (laughing)

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 Can you imagine with not a minute of airtime

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 we could still win five states

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 including Kuala Lumpur,

00:08:39.15 --> 00:08:43.04

 we won 10 out of 11 parliamentary seats.

00:08:43.04 --> 00:08:47.08

 So I believe we are ripe for some sort of a Malaysia Spring

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 through the electoral process.

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 But we worked very hard, and as you said in 2007, 2008,

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 and we did work harder among the ethnic minorities

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 because we found that from '99 to 2004,

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 they were a bit apprehensive

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 because the policies they thought

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 struggle among the Malay leaders

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 supporting the same policies.

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 And I said to the contrary, we are a reform party

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 committed to a reform agenda.

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 Some of the obsolete policies, race-based

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 has to change with the times.

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 - I want to look at this change

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 in the Southeast Asian region.

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 There was a democracy movement in Indonesia,

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 which was successful,

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 a breakaway of East Timor from Indonesia.

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 What do you think was driving this?

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 Was it the internet?

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 Was it greater movement of people amongst the region?

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 Why at this time, you had the Asian economic crisis,

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 was that one of the drivers?

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 - You can sense the change taking place in the region

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 because there's an improved, enhanced level of education,

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 people are getting more sophisticated,

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 and among the urban and the suburban areas,

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 there is also new access to the alternative media.

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 The internet played a very significant role.

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 People want freedom,

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 and you find this notion in the last elections,

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 it's a growing trend.

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 Particularly among the young and professionals

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 and intellectuals.

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 So Malaysia is part and parcel of this change.

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 And now with the Arab Spring,

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 it's more imminent that we can sense this change coming.

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 You look at Thailand,

00:10:52.01 --> 00:10:55.06

 people consider the democratic transition

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 somewhat more fragile,

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 but in terms of the commitment towards

00:11:01.06 --> 00:11:04.02

 a democratic transition was there

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 so any sort of a coup or military dictatorship

00:11:08.02 --> 00:11:12.00

 cannot be expected to sustain for far too long.

00:11:12.21 --> 00:11:15.09

 Philippines is more reassuring,

00:11:15.09 --> 00:11:16.24

 although they're still having to grapple with

00:11:16.24 --> 00:11:19.23

 the problem of endemic corruption.

00:11:19.23 --> 00:11:23.14

 But Burma, which is quite shocking in terms of change.

00:11:23.14 --> 00:11:26.19

 I mean, I am one of the lone voices

00:11:26.19 --> 00:11:28.22

 in even Malaysian government those days

00:11:28.22 --> 00:11:32.04

 that have never had any hope of

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 a military junta reforming itself.

00:11:35.10 --> 00:11:36.15

 But I have to acknowledge

00:11:36.15 --> 00:11:41.02

 there is some more positive changes taking place

00:11:41.02 --> 00:11:42.22

 in terms of democratic transition,

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 access to media, or freer elections,

00:11:47.07 --> 00:11:50.11

 Burma is way ahead of Malaysia today.

00:11:50.11 --> 00:11:51.24

 - Burma, really?

00:11:51.24 --> 00:11:52.21

 Amazing.

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 - Yes, yes,

00:11:53.17 --> 00:11:56.11

 because you have Aung San Suu Kyi on television

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 and we don't have--

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 - Right, and you're not admitted in practice on TV.

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 - But the second is not democratic.

00:12:01.04 --> 00:12:04.16

 I mean, it would be fallacious to assume

00:12:04.16 --> 00:12:07.14

 that Burma is a democratic country,

00:12:07.14 --> 00:12:10.24

 but you find there's some sort of a

00:12:10.24 --> 00:12:14.14

 more positive, more reassuring change towards

00:12:14.14 --> 00:12:16.03

 democratic reform.

00:12:16.03 --> 00:12:20.01

 - What do you see is the security situation?

00:12:20.01 --> 00:12:22.09

 Julia Gillard the Australian prime minister

00:12:22.09 --> 00:12:27.01

 has now agreed to station some 3,000 US Marines

00:12:27.01 --> 00:12:29.04

 in the north of Australia,

00:12:29.04 --> 00:12:33.06

 clearly as a sort of long-term push back

00:12:33.06 --> 00:12:36.12

 against any possible Chinese influence.

00:12:37.10 --> 00:12:41.07

 What's going to happen to these countries in the middle?

00:12:41.07 --> 00:12:43.15

 Do you think that the ASEAN countries

00:12:43.15 --> 00:12:46.13

 should form a united security pact?

00:12:48.18 --> 00:12:53.13

 - I'm not a great supporter of this security pacts,

00:12:53.13 --> 00:12:57.10

 but there should be a strong regional understanding

00:12:57.10 --> 00:12:58.10

 between these countries,

00:12:58.10 --> 00:13:00.22

 political, economic, cultural,

00:13:01.20 --> 00:13:04.22

 and that would be enough to show

00:13:04.22 --> 00:13:08.21

 they can deter any form of possible interference

00:13:08.21 --> 00:13:12.10

 by outside forces, be it the West or China.

00:13:13.18 --> 00:13:17.01

 Because security pact, Julian, for our countries

00:13:17.01 --> 00:13:20.01

 would require enormous sums of money.

00:13:20.01 --> 00:13:22.12

 It will always be at the expense of education,

00:13:22.12 --> 00:13:25.08

 public health, housing, and poverty alleviation,

00:13:25.08 --> 00:13:28.03

 and I have that huge problem in my mind.

00:13:28.03 --> 00:13:30.13

 - If we don't have some kind of security pact

00:13:30.13 --> 00:13:33.09

 or alliance of the Southeast Asian states,

00:13:33.09 --> 00:13:35.14

 won't it be the case that

00:13:35.14 --> 00:13:38.02

 China picks off an alliance here,

00:13:38.02 --> 00:13:42.06

 another country goes into bed with the United States

00:13:43.16 --> 00:13:44.24

 and in that way,

00:13:46.21 --> 00:13:50.03

 there's not a coherent sphere in Southeast Asia,

00:13:50.03 --> 00:13:51.22

 but rather there's sort of a chess board

00:13:51.22 --> 00:13:53.11

 with black square and white squares

00:13:53.11 --> 00:13:56.14

 and everyone on one side or the other?

00:13:56.14 --> 00:13:58.08

 - Well, we can avoid that,

00:13:58.08 --> 00:14:00.17

 not necessarily by having a security pact.

00:14:00.17 --> 00:14:05.08

 The strong regional body, they have clear understanding.

00:14:05.08 --> 00:14:08.22

 The parameter would include not to allow

00:14:08.22 --> 00:14:13.01

 any of our countries to be a base for the superpowers.

00:14:13.23 --> 00:14:16.04

 This was the arrangement before.

00:14:16.04 --> 00:14:19.04

 The Philippines has a problem because they already had--

00:14:19.04 --> 00:14:21.05

 - They already had the US for a long time.

00:14:21.05 --> 00:14:24.10

 - Yeah, but the understanding was not to increase.

00:14:24.10 --> 00:14:28.08

 - Let's talk a little bit abut Prime Minister Najib

00:14:28.08 --> 00:14:29.23

 and the ruling clique.

00:14:29.23 --> 00:14:32.23

 When I was in Malaysia in 2009

00:14:32.23 --> 00:14:36.17

 and was very briefly detained by the special branch,

00:14:36.17 --> 00:14:38.03

 the secret police there, (laughing)

00:14:38.03 --> 00:14:40.11

 after attending an election,

00:14:43.00 --> 00:14:46.10

 the people I was speaking to were saying,

00:14:47.12 --> 00:14:51.24

 "Whatever you do, don't mention this Altantuyaa murder."

00:14:51.24 --> 00:14:54.00

 This is the murder of the Mongolian beauty

00:14:54.00 --> 00:14:58.10

 whose body was blown up with C-4 explosives

00:14:58.10 --> 00:15:02.14

 and who was alleged to have been Najib's,

00:15:02.14 --> 00:15:06.16

 the now current prime minister's, lover.

00:15:06.16 --> 00:15:10.13

 And my response to this was, well, why not?

00:15:10.13 --> 00:15:12.11

 Well, because as soon as you do,

00:15:12.11 --> 00:15:14.10

 if we ever do this at a rally,

00:15:14.10 --> 00:15:18.00

 the police turn up and they start arresting everyone,

00:15:18.00 --> 00:15:19.24

 which I thought was a great opportunity

00:15:19.24 --> 00:15:21.10

 because whenever you want to have

00:15:21.10 --> 00:15:22.14

 a lot of police somewhere,

00:15:22.14 --> 00:15:24.19

 you have a button that you can press

00:15:24.19 --> 00:15:28.23

 at your time and place of choosing to get them there.

00:15:28.23 --> 00:15:31.17

 Can you describe this murder case

00:15:32.22 --> 00:15:36.16

 and why is it still so sensitive in Malaysia?

00:15:37.17 --> 00:15:39.08

 - It should not be sensitive.

00:15:39.08 --> 00:15:41.22

 I brought this up in parliament

00:15:42.22 --> 00:15:46.10

 and of course the speaker, or the members,

00:15:48.21 --> 00:15:50.03

 they seemed to be very upset.

00:15:50.03 --> 00:15:53.05

 I did not in any way infer that Najib

00:15:54.23 --> 00:15:57.16

 was even complicit to the murder.

00:15:57.16 --> 00:16:02.12

 What we said was there were major questions unresolved.

00:16:02.12 --> 00:16:04.24

 Number one, why did you change the charge?

00:16:04.24 --> 00:16:09.02

 Number two, why was there no proper investigation?

00:16:09.02 --> 00:16:11.13

 Number three, why were the key people

00:16:11.13 --> 00:16:14.20

 not called as witnesses in the case?

00:16:14.20 --> 00:16:16.12

 It's a major issue.

00:16:16.12 --> 00:16:19.13

 And this case, the mother of Altantuyaa

00:16:19.13 --> 00:16:23.10

 is related to a major corruption scandal

00:16:23.10 --> 00:16:27.14

 involving the purchase of two submarines from France.

00:16:28.15 --> 00:16:31.15

 The case now is in the Paris courts.

00:16:32.16 --> 00:16:35.24

 How is it it can be heard and opened up in the Paris court

00:16:35.24 --> 00:16:38.09

 and we are completely silent about that?

00:16:38.09 --> 00:16:40.22

 - In Malaysia the testimony of

00:16:40.22 --> 00:16:42.14

 a number of the witnesses in this case

00:16:42.14 --> 00:16:44.06

 was secret for some reason.

00:16:44.06 --> 00:16:45.11

 - Yes.

00:16:45.11 --> 00:16:46.21

 Secret and worse.

00:16:47.20 --> 00:16:51.18

 - In 2008 around the time of the election in Malaysia,

00:16:51.18 --> 00:16:55.19

 you suffered a second accusation of sodomy

00:16:55.19 --> 00:16:58.04

 brought by one of your aides.

00:17:00.11 --> 00:17:02.23

 - It's just a smear campaign.

00:17:02.23 --> 00:17:06.10

 It went on about the sodomy charge in every village,

00:17:06.10 --> 00:17:09.18

 this video about the so-called statement

00:17:10.19 --> 00:17:12.14

 from the complainer.

00:17:12.14 --> 00:17:13.24

 But, again, as I said, Julian,

00:17:13.24 --> 00:17:16.09

 do not underestimate the wisdom of the people.

00:17:16.09 --> 00:17:17.19

 You have the entire cabinet,

00:17:17.19 --> 00:17:19.06

 the entire government resources,

00:17:19.06 --> 00:17:22.11

 every night in the national media abusing me

00:17:22.11 --> 00:17:25.13

 and still I increase my majority.

00:17:25.13 --> 00:17:29.16

 But worse is to use this as a political ploy,

00:17:29.16 --> 00:17:31.06

 trump up charges,

00:17:31.06 --> 00:17:32.06

 use the police,

00:17:32.06 --> 00:17:34.00

 and finally with the judiciary.

00:17:34.00 --> 00:17:36.09

 Although finally, Julian, I was acquitted,

00:17:36.09 --> 00:17:39.24

 but never suggest that the judiciary was independent.

00:17:39.24 --> 00:17:41.03

 Right through,

00:17:41.03 --> 00:17:43.03

 they could just entertain and allow

00:17:43.03 --> 00:17:45.01

 the prosecution just to abuse.

00:17:45.01 --> 00:17:46.19

 The most disgusting.

00:17:46.19 --> 00:17:50.12

 You know, you use this facade, democracy,

00:17:50.12 --> 00:17:52.06

 democratic elections,

00:17:52.06 --> 00:17:53.16

 judicial independence,

00:17:53.16 --> 00:17:55.21

 and you abuse the process.

00:17:57.13 --> 00:18:00.09

 I'm sorry, I sound a bit strong in this case. (laughs)

00:18:00.09 --> 00:18:01.07

 - No, no, no,

00:18:01.07 --> 00:18:04.20

 I sometimes feel like speaking this way myself

00:18:04.20 --> 00:18:08.24

 so I'm glad you did. (laughs)

00:18:08.24 --> 00:18:12.13

 Anwar, let's talk about the future.

00:18:12.13 --> 00:18:15.08

 We have a good portrait of Malaysia now.

00:18:15.08 --> 00:18:19.19

 Let's talk about where Malaysia's going forward

00:18:19.19 --> 00:18:22.08

 and where the region is going forward.

00:18:22.08 --> 00:18:25.08

 What is your plan for Malaysia

00:18:25.08 --> 00:18:30.01

 if your opposition coalition was to win government?

00:18:30.01 --> 00:18:33.21

 - Immediately we should make sure it's a democracy.

00:18:33.21 --> 00:18:34.20

 Okay?

00:18:34.20 --> 00:18:39.02

 We have largely a much better infrastructure

00:18:39.02 --> 00:18:42.02

 and more educated workforce,

00:18:42.02 --> 00:18:45.11

 and don't treat Malays in such a condescending manner

00:18:45.11 --> 00:18:48.11

 that people are not prepared to

00:18:48.11 --> 00:18:51.07

 already to exercise their freedom.

00:18:53.03 --> 00:18:56.14

 Which means all the judiciary, free media

00:18:57.23 --> 00:19:01.14

 and economic policy that can promote growth,

00:19:01.14 --> 00:19:02.16

 market economy,

00:19:02.16 --> 00:19:05.09

 at the same time understand the abuses.

00:19:05.09 --> 00:19:08.23

 When we talk about in our discourse even the Arab Spring.

00:19:08.23 --> 00:19:13.16

 Arab Spring, one area clamoring for freedom reform.

00:19:13.16 --> 00:19:16.17

 Then we have Occupy Wall Street,

00:19:16.17 --> 00:19:19.17

 the limitations, the unbridled greed

00:19:22.18 --> 00:19:26.10

 and the gap between the very rich and very poor,

00:19:26.10 --> 00:19:31.02

 complicity between the big business groups and politics.

00:19:31.02 --> 00:19:33.24

 This we need to avoid because you should learn

00:19:33.24 --> 00:19:36.03

 from the frustrations--

00:19:36.03 --> 00:19:38.05

 - From the frustrations in the West?

00:19:38.05 --> 00:19:39.09

 - In the West.

00:19:40.06 --> 00:19:43.02

 Your experience too and the fact that

00:19:43.02 --> 00:19:45.11

 they are now exposed to WikiLeaks.

00:19:45.11 --> 00:19:48.19

 You can sense the hypocrisy, the paradox

00:19:52.21 --> 00:19:54.22

 and contradictions

00:19:54.22 --> 00:19:57.07

 between these pronouncements

00:19:57.07 --> 00:20:00.01

 and what was actually the missive sent.

00:20:00.01 --> 00:20:02.22

 You made a major contribution.

00:20:02.22 --> 00:20:04.06

 Not everybody agree,

00:20:04.06 --> 00:20:07.09

 some of the missives are even at my expense,

00:20:07.09 --> 00:20:09.01

 but I support that.

00:20:09.01 --> 00:20:09.22

 You know why?

00:20:09.22 --> 00:20:14.00

 Because you understand what is realpolitik,

00:20:14.00 --> 00:20:15.14

 what is the so-called

00:20:15.14 --> 00:20:18.05

 hypocrisy of the notion of diplomacy

00:20:18.05 --> 00:20:22.09

 that is not based on truth or morality or ethical standards,

00:20:24.01 --> 00:20:26.00

 but pure brute power

00:20:26.00 --> 00:20:29.07

 and parochial or national interest.

00:20:29.07 --> 00:20:31.05

 So I think this needs to change.

00:20:31.05 --> 00:20:33.12

 Why can Malaysia have to have a century?

00:20:33.12 --> 00:20:36.08

 Bring this new sense among Malays,

00:20:37.11 --> 00:20:39.24

 Chinese, Indians or Dayas,

00:20:39.24 --> 00:20:41.24

 that, look, we are a big family,

00:20:41.24 --> 00:20:44.03

 we can move up together.

00:20:44.03 --> 00:20:45.08

 Why can't it be done?

00:20:45.08 --> 00:20:47.11

 Why is it so difficult?

00:20:47.11 --> 00:20:48.16

 It's rich country, you know.

00:20:48.16 --> 00:20:52.04

 We have 90 billion ringgit net income from petroleum.

00:20:52.04 --> 00:20:55.00

 We are not like most of our neighbors having to import

00:20:55.00 --> 00:20:56.15

 and having this--

00:20:56.15 --> 00:20:59.23

 - What will it take for that to be done?

00:21:01.09 --> 00:21:03.17

 Is it a matter of education?

00:21:05.08 --> 00:21:07.11

 - No, it is leadership, Julian.

00:21:07.11 --> 00:21:10.06

 It's a courage of conviction, tenacity of purpose.

00:21:10.06 --> 00:21:12.18

 You want to do something good,

00:21:12.18 --> 00:21:15.02

 you must not be corrupt.

00:21:15.02 --> 00:21:16.09

 It has to work.

00:21:17.20 --> 00:21:20.24

 And of course politics is the art of compromise.

00:21:20.24 --> 00:21:23.16

 I'm not saying that you are a political philosopher

00:21:23.16 --> 00:21:25.11

 dictating issues,

00:21:25.11 --> 00:21:28.07

 but there are certain ground rules

00:21:29.09 --> 00:21:32.14

 that you have to accept and adopt.

00:21:32.14 --> 00:21:35.02

 The moment you say you are for democracy,

00:21:35.02 --> 00:21:37.08

 you become a Western stooge.

00:21:37.08 --> 00:21:38.24

 The moment you talk about macro economy,

00:21:38.24 --> 00:21:41.02

 you become a Soros agent.

00:21:42.06 --> 00:21:43.16

 But you know, these things--

00:21:43.16 --> 00:21:44.17

 - I've been one of those.

00:21:44.17 --> 00:21:46.18

 (laughing)

00:21:46.18 --> 00:21:49.04

 - Now, the moment I have an interview with you,

00:21:49.04 --> 00:21:50.20

 you know what's going to happen after this.

00:21:50.20 --> 00:21:52.22

 (laughs)

00:21:55.01 --> 00:21:57.13

 The problem with these authoritarian leaders,

00:21:57.13 --> 00:22:01.13

 and at times even the leaders in the West,

00:22:01.13 --> 00:22:04.07

 that's including the strong Islamophobia,

00:22:04.07 --> 00:22:06.01

 this we against them,

00:22:07.12 --> 00:22:10.16

 this unilateral policy of the United States,

00:22:10.16 --> 00:22:14.20

 I don't sense that they even ascribe to the ideals,

00:22:17.16 --> 00:22:20.09

 the initial spirit of the American Revolution

00:22:20.09 --> 00:22:22.15

 or Jeffersonian ideals.

00:22:22.15 --> 00:22:25.13

 All the habits of the heart that Tocqueville talked about.

00:22:25.13 --> 00:22:26.11

 They don't.

00:22:26.11 --> 00:22:28.11

 And that is our concern.

00:22:28.11 --> 00:22:31.04

 But we have to do it in a small way

00:22:31.04 --> 00:22:32.15

 in a small country,

00:22:32.15 --> 00:22:35.15

 not the ambition to be a great nation on Earth,

00:22:35.15 --> 00:22:38.20

 but at least for Malaysia, what is it?

00:22:38.20 --> 00:22:43.02

 Why is it so difficult to make a village guy,

00:22:43.02 --> 00:22:44.24

 a Malay farmer,

00:22:44.24 --> 00:22:49.02

 and a Chinese petty trader or an Indian estate worker

00:22:49.02 --> 00:22:51.14

 feel that they're being respected

00:22:51.14 --> 00:22:53.22

 and recognized as a citizen,

00:22:55.12 --> 00:22:58.23

 given the dignity as a Malay citizen.

00:22:58.23 --> 00:23:01.07

 I don't think it takes a lot.

00:23:01.07 --> 00:23:04.04

 It takes just conscience, sincerity

00:23:04.04 --> 00:23:06.21

 and courage of conviction.

00:23:06.21 --> 00:23:07.24

 - Very good.

00:23:07.24 --> 00:23:11.15

 Anwar Ibrahim, thank you very much.

00:23:11.15 --> 00:23:13.15

 - Thank you. (laughs)

00:23:13.15 --> 00:23:14.12

 - Have a good night.

00:23:14.12 --> 00:23:17.16

 So that's very nice, thank you, Anwar.

00:23:18.15 --> 00:23:21.09

 We've got lots of good material there.

00:23:21.09 --> 00:23:24.14

 Actually, just as a matter of curiosity

00:23:24.14 --> 00:23:26.17

 I interviewed the president of Tunisia.

00:23:26.17 --> 00:23:30.07

 Did you manage to meet with him when you were over there?

00:23:30.07 --> 00:23:31.05

 The new president?

00:23:31.05 --> 00:23:33.08

 - Unfortunately at that time

00:23:33.08 --> 00:23:37.04

 they were hosting the Syrian opposition.

00:23:37.04 --> 00:23:40.08

 - Oh yeah, the Friends of Syria.

00:23:40.08 --> 00:23:43.03

 - So I just met Rasha Hanousi and half the cabinet

00:23:43.03 --> 00:23:45.19

 and 60 MPs there for this dialogue,

00:23:45.19 --> 00:23:48.14

 mainly on this issue of about democratic reform

00:23:48.14 --> 00:23:51.06

 and that they have a major role,

00:23:52.20 --> 00:23:56.04

 because if they go a bit too tough

00:23:56.04 --> 00:23:58.01

 on some of the Islamic issues,

00:23:58.01 --> 00:24:02.13

 then there will be greater concern about the role of Islam.

00:24:02.13 --> 00:24:06.17

 Now, back to you, what's happening now the latest?

00:24:09.02 --> 00:24:12.08

 - Right now I have this US grand jury,

00:24:12.08 --> 00:24:15.21

 which has been investigating me for 18 months,

00:24:15.21 --> 00:24:19.21

 and it appears to have filed a secret indictment

00:24:20.19 --> 00:24:22.13

 which it will use to try and extradite me

00:24:22.13 --> 00:24:23.15

 to the United States.

00:24:23.15 --> 00:24:27.19

 At the same time, I have a case in the Supreme Court

00:24:27.19 --> 00:24:29.01

 here in Great Britain,

00:24:29.01 --> 00:24:32.16

 which used to be the House of Lords.

00:24:32.16 --> 00:24:34.14

 If I am not successful,

00:24:35.10 --> 00:24:38.12

 then I will be extradited to Sweden,

00:24:38.12 --> 00:24:40.24

 imprisoned immediately without charge,

00:24:40.24 --> 00:24:45.10

 I have not been charged ever in any country,

00:24:45.10 --> 00:24:48.16

 and then go through a sex trial or not,

00:24:50.17 --> 00:24:52.04

 maybe they will drop it,

00:24:52.04 --> 00:24:55.06

 but the refuse to come over here to interview me,

00:24:55.06 --> 00:24:56.15

 to ask questions.

00:24:56.15 --> 00:24:58.01

 We offered to do this by phone,

00:24:58.01 --> 00:25:00.01

 to go to the Swedish embassy here,

00:25:00.01 --> 00:25:01.15

 they refused to do this.

00:25:01.15 --> 00:25:04.21

 Instead they demand to extradite me

00:25:04.21 --> 00:25:07.14

 to ask questions without any charge.

00:25:07.14 --> 00:25:10.13

 And this is the situation I have been in now

00:25:10.13 --> 00:25:12.13

 under house arrest.

00:25:12.13 --> 00:25:16.11

 I had an electronic manacle around my leg

00:25:16.11 --> 00:25:18.07

 to record my location.

00:25:19.10 --> 00:25:22.22

 So it's a bit grim, but on the other hand,

00:25:24.24 --> 00:25:27.01

 I do have a platform.

00:25:27.01 --> 00:25:30.08

 It does give me to a degree a platform.

00:25:31.19 --> 00:25:35.12

 And this process comes out of the legislation

00:25:36.18 --> 00:25:39.15

 in Europe in response to 9/11,

00:25:39.15 --> 00:25:41.23

 so this particular thing that I am entrapped under

00:25:41.23 --> 00:25:45.14

 came about as a result of European

00:25:45.14 --> 00:25:47.16

 police departments and governments saying

00:25:47.16 --> 00:25:50.04

 we must have a way to quickly take terrorists

00:25:50.04 --> 00:25:54.13

 from one European country to another European country.

00:25:54.13 --> 00:25:58.17

 - Now the same draconian laws are used in other cases.

00:25:58.17 --> 00:25:59.15

 - Yeah.

00:25:59.15 --> 00:26:01.07

 - You must remember the rule of game,

00:26:01.07 --> 00:26:03.15

 enjoy yourself, be calm, relax.

00:26:03.15 --> 00:26:07.02

 You will be vindicated and we'll meet you,

00:26:08.02 --> 00:26:10.01

 London or Kuala Lumpur.

00:26:10.01 --> 00:26:11.01

 (laughing)

00:26:11.01 --> 00:26:13.16

 (upbeat music)