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Apartheid still exists in South Africa today.

Could you ever fall in love with a black woman?

Never.

Your friends all laugh and walk away

Do you believe in the coexistence of blacks and whites?

No, I do not believe in it.

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Nobody mixes here, everything is separate. The blacks stay over there, the whites stay over there.

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Nothing has changed. And it's fine like that

Everything remains the same.

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Reporter - Since apartheid, is it better or worse?

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No, worse.

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South Africa is not the country that it once was. When we talk about Orania, we think about the real South Africa. And we see a huge loss. The downfall of white order.

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South Africa. A torn country, where both friend and foe of a dying Nelson Mandela are anticipating his last breath. What will be the legacy of the leader who abolished apartheid? What is the future of his country?

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Mandela's dream was a united South Africa. For Black and White to coexist. It was a vision that still inspires a mixed reaction.

The biggest south African of all time is Nelson Mandela

Nelson Mandela

It is Mr Nelson Mandela

Who was the greatest South African of all time?

Well I would think it is Nelson Mandela and Hendrik Verwoerd.

On the basis of the History I would say Hendrik Verwoerd.

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How can I think highly of him?

He is a terrorist.

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He should never have come out of prison. He has killed many innocent people... and got away with it all.

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There is another very different name that resonates in South Africa, that of Hendrik Verwoerd. The controversial inventor of Apartheid. In his view, white and black should be separated from one another. In many white communities in South Africa there are still statues of this leader. And there is a Hendrick Verwoerd Museum, where we meet his grandson Carel.

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How would you describe your grandfather?

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Well, he was a warm human being, somebody who liked the company of others. And he loved having debates and discussions.

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His name was used for schools and hospitals. How did you feel when they got taken down?

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Yes, naturally I was very hurt when they got taken away.

It is tragic.

But on the other hand, recognition cannot be forced.

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The creator of Apartheid was born a Dutchman. At the age of two, his family moved from Amsterdam to South Africa. He later studied at the University of Stellenbosch, where he later had a wing named after him. He has another grandson, Wilhelm Verwoerd. Wilhelm is more critical towards his grandfather and his ideas.

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Is there anything still here that is named after Hendrik Verwoerd?

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All names that are politically controversial were removed from here.

Especially his name.

Precisely because it is a symbol of pain and injustice for black South Africans.

I can understand that. This should be a place for all Africans.

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The name Verwoerd is inextricably linked with the Apartheid regime in South Africa. During this period, black voting was withdrawn and marriages between people of different races were legally prohibited. Whites and blacks lived strictly apart from each other.

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As a young man, I was part of the apartheid mindset. There was a strong awareness of the difference between black and whites. There was definitely a sense that it was impossible to live in a community together in peace. That the only way to have a peaceful future is if we developed as separate racial and cultural groups.

That was the vision, and I believed it then also.

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I was a baby, just a year old

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You are sitting on his lap

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Yes, sitting on his lap

A very special picture for me.

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Although Hendrik Verwoerd was a loving grandfather and a family man....

...he was fierce when it came to politics on the ground. In 1960, black protesters took to the streets of Sharpeville town. 69 people, including women and children, were killed.

SB

Nelson Mandela's speech on TV: "I think the time has come for us to consider, in the light of our experiences at this day at home, whether the methods which we have applied so far are adequate."

SB

This was when the black resistance movement in South Africa emerged. And the frontman was Nelson Mandela, who advocated a different approach. It was Hendrik Verwoerd who gave Nelson Mandela a lifelong sentence in Robben Island Prison.

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He was seen as a terrorist, a communist ...He did not deserve to sit in prison on Robben Island...... but deserved punishment.

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This is the Dutch German church, who took a hard line on Mandela.

CUT

They see Nelson Mandela as a terrorist. As someone who placed bombs. As someone whose white authority, the government wanted to overthrow.

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How different it was in Europe, where world celebrities were in support of the ANC and their struggle against Apartheid.

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It was around this time that Verwoerd's grandson Willhelm, who previously had only lived in white enclaves, went to college in the Netherlands.

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I studied in Utrecht for 3 months in 1986. I stayed in a house with black and white Africans...including ANC supporters. During that time, I became exposed to the ANC outlook on South African History.

It came as a great shock to me to realize what was actually happening here. That people were being tortured, and being put in jail. That people were losing their land and their families.

So the realization of what apartheid really meant came to me during those three months in the Netherlands.

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Willhelm returned to teach at the University in Stellenbosch. The place where his grandfather had studied and which still held him in high regard.

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Then I got involved with the ANC.

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You became a member of the ANC? How did your family react to that?

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Yes, it was very controversial. Not only with my family, but also on campus. Most people were not happy about it. It was said that I had betrayed my family and the people, and that now I was collaborating with the enemy.

Difficult?

It was a very difficult time, but also a liberating one.

I was part of a larger South Africa.... no longer just forming a small group of people.

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Willhelm is very different in this sense to his cousin Carel, who still supports his grandfather's idea of an apartheid state.

Carel lives in the strictly white Afrikaner community of Orania.

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In the 22 years that we have lived here, we have never had the need to live with black people.

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Travelling almost 1,000 miles from Willhelm in Stellenbosch to Carel in Orania, the real post-Apartheid South Africa is plain to see. A country where black and white people continue to live in separate worlds.

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White people do not live here.

There is still apartheid.

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Apartheid is still here?

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Still

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Only we live here.

Apartheid still exists. Yes it still exists.

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Nobody mixes here, everyone stays apart.

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Should black and white people mix?

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No, that will not work.

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Orania is a community founded by White Africaners. It formed in 1991, just after the end of Apartheid.

SB - reporter says:

Hello, I am looking for John. Hi I am Koen van Groesen.

/Welcome

Being Dutch we are especially welcome here, because many people find their origin in the Dutch colonists.

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I see the Dutch flag in your flag.

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This is our four-color, based on the Dutch flag. The flag of the Free State.

This is our history. We have had the Boer republics. Orania, The Free State, is named after William of Orange. The Orange River also. We consider the Netherlands as one of our tribe countries.

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All these bills?

/Yes please for 100 Rand.

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Orania has its own currency, the Ora. It has its own hospital and radio station.

It's like the motto says "independent, self-employed and self-determined".

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Oriana is, by African standards, a modern farming community. The Orange river ensures sufficient water is available.

The leader of this community is Willem Verwoerd's grandson, Carel.

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South Africa is no longer the country that it once was. When we talk about Orania, we think about the true South Africa and we see a huge loss. The demise of law and order. The collapse of the economic discipline. A decline in work ethic and political morality. And an increase in corruption, theft and violent crimes.

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And you don't have that here?

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No, we don't. We don't have that here

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Beyond the closed gates of Orania, South Africa is struggling with huge corruption scandals. And every year there are over 20,000 murders.

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We no longer understand this country. It is very unsafe. Children are attacked on the street, people are killed and the police do nothing...In particular it is white Afrikaners who are killed.

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Amelia and Tom van Toder have come to Orania with their children Ryno and Christien. They are looking for a piece of land, safety and stability. They want to build a new future for their children here.

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Compared with 30 years ago, South Africa has deteriorated terribly. Nothing has been rebuilt that was previously broken. The government is corrupt. Municipalities collect our tax money and then just put it in their own pocket.

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Almost a million white Afrikaners have emigrated due to the violence and corruption in South Africa. In Orania they want to stop this exodus and build a strong Afrikaner community again. So they close their gates on the bad world outside.

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See, here stuff is built... Because no black people live here. That's a fact.

I'm not saying that whites criminals don't exist ...but the percentage is much smaller.

Why are there no black people living here (English)

Like I say, this is private property. It is part of the law here (English)

Its safer that way (English).

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It is safe, because we remain among our own people.

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The Dutch Reformed Church in Orania is a legacy of Orania's colonial ancestors.

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Church of Jesus Christ. Grace and peace be with you.

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Apartheid found a justification in the bible. How?

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Some people look to Genesis 11 where after the tower of Babel was built

the nations were scattered and they no longer understood each other.

They say that God meant for people to have their own language and therefore should live separately.

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Should the Dutch Reformed Church have distanced itself earlier from Apartheid?

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Yes, much earlier.

Because in the 50s and 60s there were already voices in the church saying: This view does not fit with the Bible.

But that was not a majority.

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Is it also because the Dutch Reformed church was very law abiding to the leaders of the country?

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Yes

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After 27 years inside, Nelson Mandela was released from prison. Apartheid was officially abolished in 1990 and Mandela's dream of a united South Africa was made law. In reality, however, this dream is still far away.

Across the nation there are socially experimental small communities under construction. Like here in the hills of Stellenbosch.

Not entirely coincidently, the place where Wilhelm Verwoerd lives.

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Here is the crèche. It's for children from schools and farms in the area.

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When people talk about South Africa as a multicultural community and people living within together, here is where people are actually doing that. Black, white, cape colored, working class, middle class. We do not stop at talking: we put it into practice.

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If I am honest, it is very different here than in Orania

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Yeah

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This is the former house of your grandmother.

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Yes, This is where she spent her last years. She lived in the other part, and the nurse lived in here. It's funny to see that there is such a surplus of Verwoerd paintings.

17.04

Your cousin says he hopes that you will one day have the insight that a neighbour can be black.

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The prevailing thought is that a multicultural way of life is a more advanced way of life than living with your own people.

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Everywhere you look in South Africa it is obvious just how much it is still defined by the apartheid years. So the question remains: who has shaped contemporary South Africa the most? Hendrik Verwoerd or Nelson Mandela?

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The two figures, Mandela and Verwoerd, are fairly balanced. But Verwoerd still puts more weight on the scale, in terms of influence and impact. A greater African.

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If you look at the success of apartheid and what is left of it, then my grandfather had a big influence, Hendrik Verwoerd.

But if you look at history, particularly the last 20, 30 years, it is Nelson Mandela.