1
00:00:23,166 --> 00:00:27,066
My name is Ra Paulette.
Im 65 years old.

2
00:00:27,066 --> 00:00:31,133
I m a digger of caves
and a piler of rocks.

3
00:00:32,033 --> 00:00:36,200
I ve been excavating caves
for about 25 years,

4
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,467
and actually I didn t get
started until I was 39.

5
00:00:39,467 --> 00:00:43,567
So I ve been a late
bloomer in life.

6
00:00:45,066 --> 00:00:48,467
I ve always had to learn
things for myself.

7
00:00:48,467 --> 00:00:51,433
Thats pretty much
why I quit school.

8
00:00:51,433 --> 00:00:55,633
I wasnt interested in things
that could be taught or learned.

9
00:00:55,633 --> 00:00:58,767
I was wondering what was
inside of myself that

10
00:00:58,767 --> 00:01:03,734
was completely, uniquely
my own perspective

11
00:01:05,734 --> 00:01:08,767
These caves are done
as a celebration.

12
00:01:08,767 --> 00:01:12,533
I want to create a space
that's transformative.

13
00:01:12,533 --> 00:01:18,300
I want to subject, mercilessly,
a person to the aesthetic in a

14
00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:24,266
way that stimulates a deep
emotionality to a point in which

15
00:01:24,266 --> 00:01:26,467
It becomes a
transformative tool.

16
00:01:26,467 --> 00:01:30,100
That's a big goal but
I'm ready for it.

17
00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:36,500
**music*

18
00:02:27,333 --> 00:02:29,800
Sometimes I feel more
like an archeologist

19
00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,000
uncovering something
that is already there.

20
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,400
In construction,
space is captured.

21
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,767
But I m creating space
through extraction.

22
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,066
I don't make drawings.

23
00:02:50,066 --> 00:02:53,767
I can feel it. I can
feel the empty space.

24
00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:58,300
I can come to the side of
the walls very quickly.

25
00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:00,300
And I can feel where
the floor is.

26
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,600
I always check it out
with levels, but I

27
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,333
can usually come to
flat pretty quick.

28
00:03:10,633 --> 00:03:16,467
In digging the cave, I go
in 15, 20 feet and then I

29
00:03:16,467 --> 00:03:21,266
more or less breach like
a whale or a dolphin.

30
00:03:21,433 --> 00:03:27,066
Open up the skylight, let the
light flood down, now I've got
air circulation.

31
00:03:27,066 --> 00:03:33,600
I go in deeper and then come
back up again and I do that
continually.

32
00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:37,100
All those things form the
architectural shape.

33
00:03:40,333 --> 00:03:42,100
I use only hand tools.

34
00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:47,533
Shovels, maddox,
scrapers, wheelbarrow.

35
00:03:47,533 --> 00:03:49,433
No dynamite.

36
00:03:49,433 --> 00:03:52,166
No tractors, no
pneumatic drills.

37
00:03:52,166 --> 00:03:54,166
I do it all by myself.

38
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,734
I don t have generators;
I m too far back.

39
00:03:58,734 --> 00:04:02,066
I do have mirrors, and I use
the mirrors, which must have

40
00:04:02,066 --> 00:04:05,200
been the way that they did
it thousands of years ago.

41
00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,367
But I'm always on the
lookout for something

42
00:04:08,367 --> 00:04:12,233
to make the action easier
and more efficient.

43
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,200
I'm the only one that I
know that has done it.

44
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,633
The ancient people,
religious people would dig.

45
00:04:25,633 --> 00:04:29,066
Digging a hole in the ground
and finding God in that hole

46
00:04:29,066 --> 00:04:33,734
has been an ancient practice
among religious adepts.

47
00:04:34,133 --> 00:04:39,000
But I don't think they got into
the shape of it like I do.

48
00:04:41,767 --> 00:04:44,300
When I m working on a project,
I m totally obsessed.

49
00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:46,300
I m thinking about
it all day long.

50
00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,734
All night long I m dreaming,
usually senseless digging
dreams.

51
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,734
Most people that are
engaged in physical

52
00:04:54,734 --> 00:04:57,734
labor aren t having the
fun that I m having.

53
00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,734
It s pretty down and
dirty work, there s not

54
00:05:01,734 --> 00:05:05,100
too many people who are
digging in the ground.

55
00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:07,266
I ve tried to get people
interested in it.

56
00:05:07,266 --> 00:05:09,533
I ve tried to tell young
guys, you could do

57
00:05:09,533 --> 00:05:12,133
this, you could have
a cave of your own.

58
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,600
Doesn t register,
doesn t register.

59
00:05:19,467 --> 00:05:24,400
This material is very soft
sandstone material that is very
compressed.

60
00:05:24,767 --> 00:05:28,433
It s the material that really
got me interested and got me
started.

61
00:05:28,433 --> 00:05:36,667
I saw a real small cave that
kids had done and realized how
workable it was.

62
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,600
I can do sculptural things that

63
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:45,066
would take a sculptor in stone
months, maybe years to do

64
00:05:45,066 --> 00:05:47,066
it can be done in days
with this material.

65
00:05:48,567 --> 00:05:51,800
My assumption is that it is
pretty unique to the area.

66
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:57,500
Its solidified sand dunes, and
this was the shoreline of an
ancient, ancient sea.

67
00:05:57,667 --> 00:06:00,100
You mean to tell me, you
couldn't do this work

68
00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:02,734
anywhere but in this patch
of Northern New Mexico?

69
00:06:03,033 --> 00:06:04,266
As far as I know.

70
00:06:04,266 --> 00:06:10,200
I'm sure there is other material
that you could dig caves in, but
not by hand.

71
00:06:16,333 --> 00:06:22,333
When I first started digging
back in 86, I had no idea what
the material was like

72
00:06:22,567 --> 00:06:27,767
and wondered if I was doing
something completely foolhardy

73
00:06:27,767 --> 00:06:30,800
by even trying to
dig a cave in it.

74
00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,567
I imagined people coming up
to rescue me and maybe even

75
00:06:35,567 --> 00:06:41,133
endangering their own lives,
digging my corpse out of the
ground.

76
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,400
So I wrote a note apologizing
and wore it around my neck.

77
00:06:45,533 --> 00:06:51,133
Just as an assurance to the
rescuers that I appreciated
their efforts.

78
00:06:58,433 --> 00:07:01,800
I'm not an engineer but I
am an intuitive engineer.

79
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,633
And over the 20 years I've
gotten a pretty good idea

80
00:07:04,633 --> 00:07:09,633
of what's safe using my own
fear levels as a guide.

81
00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:16,800
I have had structural engineers
as visitors, and they ve all
given me a thumbs-up.

82
00:07:17,066 --> 00:07:19,633
My arches are like this.

83
00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:23,066
And in this material I
could probably get away

84
00:07:23,066 --> 00:07:26,200
with that although, I would
be afraid to do that.

85
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,033
If a cave was like this,
it would collapse

86
00:07:30,033 --> 00:07:33,300
until the final shape was
something like that.

87
00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:36,033
So I keep my arches
very conservative.

88
00:07:36,033 --> 00:07:42,000
I mean, it s one thing if the
old cave digger gets buried
alive, it would be tragic.

89
00:07:42,433 --> 00:07:45,367
But for me, what s really
scary is if someone

90
00:07:45,367 --> 00:07:48,000
else were to get
hurt in these caves.

91
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,000
That fear keeps me honest.

92
00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,433
I met Ra before I met Shel.

93
00:07:59,433 --> 00:08:02,300
And he was a garbage
man in Taos.

94
00:08:03,533 --> 00:08:07,066
She and I were boyfriend
and girlfriend.

95
00:08:07,066 --> 00:08:08,800
And we re dear friends now.

96
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,700
But neurologically we are
not suited for each other.

97
00:08:20,734 --> 00:08:26,600
Liz is a go-getter type person,
who likes to do everything as a
team.

98
00:08:26,734 --> 00:08:29,600
Whereas I m kind
of off to myself.

99
00:08:33,467 --> 00:08:35,800
Liz and I, we were talking
about Chaco Canyon,

100
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,700
and I said, well I ve never
been there, and she said,
well, lets go.

101
00:08:38,700 --> 00:08:41,767
I kissed my girlfriend goodbye
and came over and picked up Liz

102
00:08:41,767 --> 00:08:45,800
and she kissed Ra
goodbye and then

103
00:08:47,767 --> 00:08:50,600
things kind of
changed after that.

104
00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,600
What happened in Chaco Canyon?

105
00:08:58,667 --> 00:09:04,066
That darn Shel came in Shel,
of course, who s also my very
good buddy

106
00:09:04,266 --> 00:09:07,033
came in and stole her away.

107
00:09:09,133 --> 00:09:13,333
I had been working on
Liz's landscape, doing

108
00:09:13,333 --> 00:09:16,133
a lot of rockwork
around their old house.

109
00:09:16,233 --> 00:09:20,533
I actually stuck it out and kept
on doing the rockwork while

110
00:09:20,533 --> 00:09:24,567
Shel was coming over and they
were in the house partying down.

111
00:09:25,100 --> 00:09:28,533
Well... It might not have been
that dramatic, but that s the
way it felt.

112
00:09:28,533 --> 00:09:32,800
Ra's not your typical person,
which is what I like about him.

113
00:09:33,533 --> 00:09:38,533
He doesn't do things for
himself. He does things for art.

114
00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:40,700
He does things for other people.

115
00:09:44,066 --> 00:09:49,300
He has been an incredible
friend to us for many years.

116
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,700
We just knew that Ra needed
work and we had seen the cave

117
00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:56,633
that he had done up on the
mesa and it was beautiful.

118
00:09:57,033 --> 00:10:03,066
The project was more about Ra
and helping Ra out than the cave
itself.

119
00:10:03,633 --> 00:10:07,734
He just said you know it will
take 2 months and cost $2000
dollars

120
00:10:07,734 --> 00:10:10,400
and we just thought, knowing
Ra it'll take 4 months

121
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,567
and cost $4000 but we can
probably deal with that.

122
00:10:13,567 --> 00:10:15,567
So how long did it take?

123
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,667
It took more than two years.

124
00:10:27,767 --> 00:10:32,066
Liz and Shel's cave was a
real difficult project.

125
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,734
Liz was in the midst of cancer
treatment. Serious cancer.

126
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,734
In hindsight I should've
just stopped the project

127
00:10:39,734 --> 00:10:43,033
until Liz's treatment
was farther along.

128
00:10:43,633 --> 00:10:45,000
I don't know why I didn't.

129
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,300
I guess we were hurting for
money and we needed income.

130
00:10:51,066 --> 00:10:56,800
I remember coming home at one
point and there being a huge
hole

131
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,233
in the top of the cave
with no plan to close

132
00:11:00,233 --> 00:11:04,300
it in and thinking, How
far is this going?

133
00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:09,800
The uncertainty of the
cave, the way it was

134
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,533
developing, not knowing
where it was going,

135
00:11:13,533 --> 00:11:19,333
all of her cancer fears
were going into the cave.

136
00:11:19,333 --> 00:11:20,533
And it was getting big.

137
00:11:20,533 --> 00:11:25,567
Although, contrary to popular
opinion, I know when something
is finished.

138
00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:30,800
When he has a shovel in his
hand, he's like a coke addict
with piles of coke.

139
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,667
He just wants to keep
going and going.

140
00:11:33,667 --> 00:11:36,000
So Liz would say,
I have cancer.

141
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,166
You go tell him he has to stop.

142
00:11:38,166 --> 00:11:41,533
Not stop, but finish what you re
doing, not make it any bigger.

143
00:11:41,533 --> 00:11:43,533
And he'd go, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

144
00:11:47,367 --> 00:11:51,567
I couldn't really stop what I
was doing. I couldn't adjust it.

145
00:11:51,667 --> 00:11:55,367
They were getting more and
more anxious about the size.

146
00:11:55,567 --> 00:12:00,667
People are very scared about
having something that doesn t
have blueprints to it.

147
00:12:02,433 --> 00:12:04,400
I thought I had convinced him,

148
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,633
It s big enough, you
have to finish it.

149
00:12:06,633 --> 00:12:08,433
And then I went up
there and he had dug

150
00:12:08,433 --> 00:12:10,533
these closets out
in the bedroom area

151
00:12:10,533 --> 00:12:13,633
and I went, Ra, you told me
you were not doing it anymore.

152
00:12:13,633 --> 00:12:16,033
And he said, Just these
closets, just these closets.

153
00:12:16,033 --> 00:12:19,700
Somehow the money kept
being there when we needed

154
00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:22,400
to pay him and he only
worked 20 hours a week.

155
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,100
And he was only charging us 15
dollars an hour or something
like that.

156
00:12:28,667 --> 00:12:31,567
It was too much. I felt
like I was causing

157
00:12:31,567 --> 00:12:36,367
suffering while I was
unfolding this project.

158
00:12:36,367 --> 00:12:39,200
That was, you know, something.

159
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,800
I can still feel it when I'm
in Liz and Shel's cave.

160
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,333
I can still feel the
emotional residue.

161
00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:10,767
All the sudden it was a
beautiful cathedral-like

162
00:13:10,767 --> 00:13:14,667
cave instead of an
ever-expanding hole.

163
00:13:19,133 --> 00:13:22,800
You know, we thought we were
doing him a favor but in the end
he was doing us

164
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,500
a favor because he made us this
beautiful, beautiful thing.

165
00:13:30,133 --> 00:13:33,567
I actually held to
the plan that I had.

166
00:13:35,333 --> 00:13:39,667
But the original plan was two
months and it took two years.

167
00:13:42,567 --> 00:13:49,567
Yeah. Did I say two months?
I don t know.

168
00:13:52,033 --> 00:13:55,533
I think he guards his life.

169
00:13:55,633 --> 00:13:59,200
If you call that selfishness,
he just makes sure that

170
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,066
he gets to live his life the
way he wants to live it.

171
00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:08,300
Of all the other ones I've seen,
ours is the only one that got
totally finished.

172
00:14:08,533 --> 00:14:12,800
It seems like Ra has,
everyone who had him build a

173
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,533
cave for some reason stopped
before it was 100% done.

174
00:14:20,166 --> 00:14:24,066
I often envy the person that
goes into their studio and
doesn't

175
00:14:24,066 --> 00:14:28,800
allow anyone in until they're
ready to have it be revealed.

176
00:14:29,133 --> 00:14:33,133
But with myself, I have
people watching the process

177
00:14:33,133 --> 00:14:37,200
It gets to a certain stage and
they'll say, Oh, good enough.

178
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,200
because I don't want
to pay anymore.

179
00:14:39,533 --> 00:14:44,667
I don't have the reputation and
the status to call the shots.

180
00:14:52,767 --> 00:14:56,300
When I came to Christina s
property I was looking for a
cave site.

181
00:14:56,467 --> 00:15:00,633
The property only goes up a
little bit of a ways, so I
thought I could get

182
00:15:00,633 --> 00:15:05,233
back in there and put the cave
back in there by coming low
through here.

183
00:15:05,533 --> 00:15:07,433
But in doing so,

184
00:15:12,033 --> 00:15:17,333
I came in and hit this
major rock wall...

185
00:15:17,333 --> 00:15:20,266
and decided that this
cave wasn t possible.

186
00:15:20,266 --> 00:15:23,667
Well, you know, I told Christina
maybe we could make a kiva out
of it.

187
00:15:23,667 --> 00:15:25,667
She got pretty upset.

188
00:15:25,667 --> 00:15:29,166
I said, No, no, no, no, no.
You're not gonna leave me with a
hole.

189
00:15:29,166 --> 00:15:30,400
There is a cave here...

190
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,533
I just know it.

191
00:15:31,533 --> 00:15:35,066
So he says, Well, all right,
I ll dig in this direction.

192
00:15:35,066 --> 00:15:38,033
And I said, No, no, no, I
really feel you should dig in
this direction.

193
00:15:38,033 --> 00:15:41,200
So, you know, he s the digger,
so he went and dug in the

194
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,200
direction that he wanted to dig
in and he came up into rock.

195
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,500
And I said, Look, do me a
favor, humor me, why don t

196
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:51,066
you dig in the direction
that I want you to dig in.

197
00:15:51,066 --> 00:15:55,467
So he did. And lo and behold,
we started to get a cave.

198
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:03,700
We did come up against a couple
of little disagreements, lets
say.

199
00:16:04,066 --> 00:16:07,667
My client was not pleased
with my carving.

200
00:16:07,667 --> 00:16:11,800
I don't know what she
thought where I was going.

201
00:16:13,367 --> 00:16:16,133
I mean, they re really,
really beautiful.

202
00:16:16,133 --> 00:16:20,567
But I was envisioning a cave
that had the simplicity of the

203
00:16:20,567 --> 00:16:25,166
Eagle Cave and I really just
wanted him not to do this.

204
00:16:25,166 --> 00:16:29,767
I wanted to be part of the
discussion of, what did they
look like

205
00:16:29,767 --> 00:16:35,033
rather than him starting to do
it before we even built the
canvas here.

206
00:16:35,266 --> 00:16:39,567
She said stop doing your
squiggly things on the walls.

207
00:16:39,567 --> 00:16:44,400
And, you, know, I was
momentarily upset but had to
laugh.

208
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,133
There were a lot of things
that we were discussing.

209
00:16:49,133 --> 00:16:52,633
We were gonna put a waterfall
out there, a little firepit
here.

210
00:16:52,633 --> 00:16:55,767
And this is where we were
going to have The Godess.

211
00:16:59,233 --> 00:17:01,467
She was going to be
carved out of this.

212
00:17:01,467 --> 00:17:06,533
In fact, someone was going
to do me, like this.

213
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:07,800
Anyhow...

214
00:17:08,100 --> 00:17:11,333
I was frustrated by
perhaps the fact that

215
00:17:11,333 --> 00:17:16,100
he was functioning
very independently.

216
00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:20,734
And this was on my land and this
was my property and this was my
cave.

217
00:17:20,734 --> 00:17:24,800
I just had to call it quits at
one point because I had kind of
spent

218
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,567
my budget which was around
twenty, twenty-five thousand I
think.

219
00:17:28,567 --> 00:17:31,800
And I was still getting more
curlicues than I was wanting.

220
00:17:32,333 --> 00:17:39,800
And, I couldn't quite get Ra
into the mindset that we were
working together.

221
00:17:40,133 --> 00:17:44,100
He was off on his
lone artist thing.

222
00:17:44,367 --> 00:17:47,133
It s definitely important
for me to have a rapport

223
00:17:47,133 --> 00:17:49,800
with the people that I
am doing a project with.

224
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,066
They have to trust me
to a certain degree.

225
00:17:52,066 --> 00:17:54,233
They certainly have input.

226
00:17:54,333 --> 00:17:59,500
But I am not the paintbrush and
my client is not the painter.

227
00:18:02,066 --> 00:18:06,533
These free-standing geological
formations are called,
Hoodoos.

228
00:18:08,567 --> 00:18:10,734
I was a traveling cave salesman.

229
00:18:11,066 --> 00:18:13,767
I could see these formations
from the highway.

230
00:18:13,767 --> 00:18:15,400
This is my stuff.

231
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,133
This is great stuff.

232
00:18:17,467 --> 00:18:20,467
I had pictures of the
very first cave, the

233
00:18:20,467 --> 00:18:25,367
Heart Chamber, and went to
John and David who owned this.

234
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:30,166
Showed them a few pictures, did
my song and dance and then gave
them an

235
00:18:30,166 --> 00:18:36,066
offer they couldn't refuse
because it was so dirt cheap, it
was ridiculous.

236
00:18:36,533 --> 00:18:40,600
He came and visited
with us in 1994.

237
00:18:41,133 --> 00:18:45,166
He said "My father said I would
never do anything but dig
ditches.

238
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,600
He said "I want to create
something different.

239
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,800
And I want to be
known as an artist.

240
00:18:51,133 --> 00:18:53,367
At that time, the only
thing that he had

241
00:18:53,367 --> 00:18:57,500
created that we knew of
was the Heart Chamber.

242
00:18:58,033 --> 00:19:01,433
The funny thing about it is,
I ve never called it a cave.

243
00:19:01,433 --> 00:19:06,767
This is a work of art that you
can enter into and view from
within.

244
00:19:07,066 --> 00:19:10,667
And there s not many works of
art that you can do that with.

245
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,100
It was never finished
to my satisfaction.

246
00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:20,133
It got 85% finished
and then it was good

247
00:19:20,133 --> 00:19:23,233
enough for the people
that I was doing it for.

248
00:19:23,233 --> 00:19:25,433
And, uh, it was a
disappointment.

249
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,467
In my estimation,
it is completed.

250
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:33,800
I know he could've done other
things and had other ideas

251
00:19:34,066 --> 00:19:38,800
but at that point we were
beginning to run out of funds.

252
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,800
It was a commissioned
work of art.

253
00:20:01,367 --> 00:20:05,567
Well, when you don't have the
authority of being a famous
artist

254
00:20:05,567 --> 00:20:10,133
and then offer people to do
the job for laboring wage,

255
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,133
it probably doesn't set up an
environment of a lot of respect.

256
00:20:16,433 --> 00:20:20,800
I d wanted to put mirrors in
here and without understanding

257
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,166
how I wanted to use them, they
thought it was too kitschy.

258
00:20:24,166 --> 00:20:26,166
We thought it would
gild the lily.

259
00:20:27,066 --> 00:20:30,567
We thought it would
look a little cheaper.

260
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:34,800
Because everything was
so natural inside.

261
00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:37,266
And to throw in something
artificial like a

262
00:20:37,266 --> 00:20:41,400
mirror, it didn t set
that well with us.

263
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,700
So I came up here on
my own, bought the

264
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,333
mirrors on my own and
put the mirrors in.

265
00:20:46,567 --> 00:20:50,400
t looked like pools of water,
which is what I was trying to
do.

266
00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:55,734
I believe people who are
commissioning a work

267
00:20:55,734 --> 00:20:58,734
of art, should be able
to give some direction.

268
00:20:58,734 --> 00:21:03,800
Just like Michelangelo
on the Sistine chapel.

269
00:21:04,367 --> 00:21:06,367
Who do you think
told him what to do?

270
00:21:06,467 --> 00:21:10,567
He knew what he wanted to do,
but he was directed by the
cardinals.

271
00:21:10,734 --> 00:21:14,233
Hi I'm Ra. I'm the guy
that dug the cave.

272
00:21:14,233 --> 00:21:17,800
So incredible! It just
felt very sacred up there.

273
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,533
Very creative and artistic.

274
00:21:20,533 --> 00:21:22,700
Even just looking through
the windows with

275
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:25,433
the light and the
little pool in there.

276
00:21:26,233 --> 00:21:27,333
A bowl of water

277
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,133
A bowl of water, or
was it the mirror?

278
00:21:30,133 --> 00:21:31,400
Oh, was it a mirror?
It's a mirror.

279
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,233
Oh, it looked like water, I was
certain that it was water.

280
00:21:34,233 --> 00:21:36,333
But then I did kind
of wonder about that.

281
00:21:36,333 --> 00:21:39,033
We had no idea what to
expect when we got up there

282
00:21:39,033 --> 00:21:41,734
and we looked in the door
and it was like, wow.

283
00:21:41,734 --> 00:21:46,100
You know when people say shrine
you think oh its just a caved
out place with a

284
00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:49,533
bunch of little rocks
and incense sticks

285
00:21:49,533 --> 00:21:52,633
with a couple of dimes and
quarters. But it s not that.

286
00:21:52,734 --> 00:21:54,734
Because we've seen those before.

287
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,734
When a person walks into
these caves for the

288
00:21:57,734 --> 00:22:05,667
first time, they all say,
I had no idea! Wow!"

289
00:22:06,266 --> 00:22:08,266
And they are magical.

290
00:22:14,633 --> 00:22:16,734
I think I m the only
one who s thought

291
00:22:16,734 --> 00:22:22,033
about venue as a
psychological tool.

292
00:22:22,567 --> 00:22:26,200
These caves are designed
as transformative spaces.

293
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:31,633
The fact that the cave is
underground and you feel

294
00:22:31,633 --> 00:22:36,734
the earth around you, yet
the sun is pouring in.

295
00:22:36,734 --> 00:22:40,734
Those are the juxtapositions
of the two metaphors

296
00:22:40,734 --> 00:22:44,533
of our lives, the
within and the without.

297
00:22:45,033 --> 00:22:51,667
It's a perceptual trick that
brings out deep expansive
emotionality.

298
00:22:54,433 --> 00:22:59,667
These caves don't really have
an effectiveness as an exhibit.

299
00:22:59,667 --> 00:23:03,166
I'm like a violin maker
who you know, i don't want to

300
00:23:03,166 --> 00:23:06,367
just put my violin on the
wall and have it admired.

301
00:23:06,367 --> 00:23:08,667
I want somebody to play it.

302
00:23:09,734 --> 00:23:15,133
I want people to get a break in
the continuity of who they are.

303
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,033
And in that break a lot
of things can happen

304
00:23:19,033 --> 00:23:22,400
personal insights,
access to enthusiasms.

305
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,200
I've seen it happen.

306
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,467
It s fun to watch.

307
00:23:25,467 --> 00:23:27,467
It keeps me digging.

308
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:40,467
He works so hard, I d like

309
00:23:40,467 --> 00:23:45,800
to see his life be easy in

310
00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:49,633
financial ways, which he
doesn t really care about.

311
00:23:49,767 --> 00:23:54,767
But he does have a partner,
his wife that he lives with.

312
00:23:55,433 --> 00:23:58,467
I d like to see him
be comfortable.

313
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,467
But that s me, that s not him.

314
00:24:00,467 --> 00:24:02,467
He doesn t really care.

315
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:07,166
I don't put any energy into
being a success in the world.

316
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:11,734
My strategy is to wait for
something from heaven to come

317
00:24:11,734 --> 00:24:15,533
along and lay it on me, which
I think it will happen.

318
00:24:15,734 --> 00:24:20,133
I've been telling
my dear Paula this

319
00:24:20,133 --> 00:24:24,300
for...she doesn't even
want to listen to it.

320
00:24:26,133 --> 00:24:29,633
I just decided let
him do his thing and

321
00:24:29,633 --> 00:24:32,100
I'll do my thing
and I don't know.

322
00:24:32,233 --> 00:24:37,633
I think everybody has that kind
of problem in their relationship
where one person

323
00:24:37,633 --> 00:24:44,233
is more maybe into security and
one person wants to do what
makes him happy.

324
00:24:44,233 --> 00:24:46,233
It's hard to find the balance.

325
00:24:46,633 --> 00:24:48,600
But I do feel a
little resentful at

326
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,100
times because I would
like to have the

327
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:53,567
freedom to go do my
thing and have him

328
00:24:53,567 --> 00:24:56,133
be the money support
for a while.

329
00:24:57,133 --> 00:25:00,300
It's not easy being
a cavedigger s wife.

330
00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:04,367
Always being broke
month to month.

331
00:25:04,367 --> 00:25:06,367
What are you up to?

332
00:25:06,367 --> 00:25:08,400
Is it going to help
pay the bills?

333
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,200
These are a big dynamic.

334
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,233
And then its the
uncertainty of, well,

335
00:25:13,233 --> 00:25:17,367
where s your
motherfuckin legacy?

336
00:25:17,567 --> 00:25:19,633
Where's your retirement?

337
00:25:19,633 --> 00:25:23,133
So... these aren't easy things.

338
00:25:23,133 --> 00:25:26,000
but we're trying to
find a middle ground

339
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,266
where things will
work where I can live

340
00:25:29,266 --> 00:25:32,667
my self-expressive
life and not have it

341
00:25:32,667 --> 00:25:37,767
be a burden of anxiety
and uncertainty.

342
00:25:37,767 --> 00:25:40,300
Where are those vases,
did you use those vases?

343
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:41,734
No, I took them out

344
00:25:42,467 --> 00:25:43,367
Are they out there?

345
00:25:43,367 --> 00:25:45,367
There s not much to pick.
I ll go

346
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,767
We don t have to make
a big deal of it.

347
00:25:47,767 --> 00:25:50,133
We just need one
sunflower, that s all.

348
00:25:50,133 --> 00:25:54,667
A lot of times I do see his
point looking at the bigger
picture.

349
00:25:54,767 --> 00:25:57,533
I get into the
"well...what about us?"

350
00:25:58,266 --> 00:25:59,633
Us being your future?

351
00:25:59,633 --> 00:26:01,233
Right. Yeah

352
00:26:03,667 --> 00:26:05,767
But it s like, when you
look at the world we

353
00:26:05,767 --> 00:26:09,233
have a great life and
nothing to complain about.

354
00:26:10,333 --> 00:26:12,333
It s got to be perfect.

355
00:26:13,367 --> 00:26:16,200
Oh, that s horrible.

356
00:26:17,433 --> 00:26:19,400
What can I say?
It s hot out there,

357
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,467
it s the drought. No flowers.

358
00:26:22,467 --> 00:26:25,700
Her demands of security
are so reasonable, most

359
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:28,700
people would be very sympathetic
to Paula's position.

360
00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:35,133
I am too, I am too.
But this is who I am.

361
00:26:35,667 --> 00:26:40,166
The problem was that everyone
else grew up and I didn't.

362
00:26:41,233 --> 00:26:44,500
It's the Peter Pan syndrome.

363
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,767
This is my backyard. There s
our house down there.

364
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:18,000
As much as I ve enjoyed the
work under all kinds of

365
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,200
circumstances, I'm through
working for other people.

366
00:27:21,367 --> 00:27:24,533
The psychological
issues with the patron,

367
00:27:24,533 --> 00:27:28,400
the fact that I just end
up paying my bills,

368
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:36,033
the fact that the project is
starting to go in a direction
that i get excited

369
00:27:36,033 --> 00:27:42,233
about and then its cut short for
lack of money or lack of
enthusiasm.

370
00:27:43,367 --> 00:27:48,467
I don't have enough time to go
off on a two or three year
project.

371
00:27:48,467 --> 00:27:49,433
This is it.

372
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,367
Everything that I've
done has been a

373
00:27:54,367 --> 00:27:58,667
lead up to this...
to the Magnum Opus.

374
00:27:59,467 --> 00:28:03,800
I've had ideas for ages that
I ve never gotten to try.

375
00:28:04,667 --> 00:28:12,500
I'm starting to get the feel,
the feel that I'm trying to
create here.

376
00:28:13,266 --> 00:28:17,567
A juxtaposition of
hugeness of these big

377
00:28:17,567 --> 00:28:21,467
pillars with the
intimacy of space.

378
00:28:21,467 --> 00:28:28,166
I'm about 80% dug, and I'm
fleshing out the shapes of the
walls.

379
00:28:29,300 --> 00:28:33,133
I m making it so that
the space can be viewed

380
00:28:33,567 --> 00:28:37,433
from a lot of different
vertical heights.

381
00:28:37,433 --> 00:28:45,300
This high area, it s kind of
like sky-run around the center
of the space,

382
00:28:46,133 --> 00:28:53,533
with the clay strata being a cap
or a lid around the center of
the space,

383
00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:59,300
and these cleaner walls being
representative of the sky.

384
00:29:01,367 --> 00:29:08,400
Well, I have cracking in the
material, so I did reinforce a
pillar with rebar.

385
00:29:08,533 --> 00:29:11,533
I opened up the cave too
much and there was too much

386
00:29:11,533 --> 00:29:14,533
air coming in and drying
things out too quickly.

387
00:29:14,533 --> 00:29:18,066
Once it s sealed, that
should solve that problem,

388
00:29:18,066 --> 00:29:20,800
but this is taking such
a long time to dig.

389
00:29:24,033 --> 00:29:27,233
For the last year and half,
Paula has been holding the fort

390
00:29:27,233 --> 00:29:30,633
as far as bringing in money
while I've been working on this.

391
00:29:30,633 --> 00:29:36,533
And usually the person who is
paying for the cave, I call it
their cave.

392
00:29:36,533 --> 00:29:39,233
She wasn't too pleased with
me putting Paula s Cave

393
00:29:39,233 --> 00:29:43,600
on there because her point
was that this is my project.

394
00:29:43,767 --> 00:29:46,533
She felt it was out of
control and every once in a

395
00:29:46,533 --> 00:29:49,300
while she would have me
come in and erase this.

396
00:29:49,467 --> 00:29:52,000
And then I would put it on
and erase it, put it on and

397
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,800
erase it until finally, this
is kind of half-erased.

398
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,800
Why did you keep
putting it back on?

399
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:05,033
The ebb and flow of
marital compatibility.

400
00:30:10,033 --> 00:30:13,600
This cave in process will
probably be the last cave.

401
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:21,200
Realistically, physically,
there's a finite time in

402
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,066
which one can work almost
completely by themselves.

403
00:30:45,166 --> 00:30:46,266
Oh, shit!

404
00:30:48,633 --> 00:30:51,533
It happened at 3:14.

405
00:30:51,767 --> 00:30:56,500
A very exciting process came
to a very abrupt conclusion.

406
00:30:57,367 --> 00:31:01,200
I had a Volkswagen-sized
piece fall out of a pillar.

407
00:31:01,367 --> 00:31:04,433
It was very definitive,
it was very definitive.

408
00:31:04,433 --> 00:31:06,700
The project is too dangerous.

409
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,800
I can't I no longer have faith
in this layered material and I

410
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,133
certainly can't make a place
that I can open up to others.

411
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:23,200
I want to take the last bit of
juice in my life and do
something significant.

412
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,600
I really thought this
pillared project was it.

413
00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:31,333
Major cave-in.

414
00:31:31,333 --> 00:31:35,400
Major structural failure
that in this experimental

415
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,800
material told me that this
is not a place for a cave.

416
00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:44,333
This is geology at its
most unpredictable.

417
00:31:45,667 --> 00:31:50,233
That evening he was so
calm and he just told

418
00:31:50,233 --> 00:31:53,667
us there s good news
and there s bad news.

419
00:31:53,667 --> 00:31:56,100
And the good news is
I'm here to tell about

420
00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:59,033
it and the bad news is
the cave collapsed.

421
00:31:59,233 --> 00:32:03,166
He just did it like that,
so it was like, uggghhh.

422
00:32:03,467 --> 00:32:07,333
I was just working right
here putting this piece

423
00:32:07,333 --> 00:32:13,000
of rebar on, twisting it,
when I heard the kaboom!

424
00:32:13,467 --> 00:32:15,800
As you can see, the
place where I d

425
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,166
been sitting 20
minutes before...

426
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:28,600
this giant chunk came down and
made toothpicks of the 2x12 s.

427
00:32:29,633 --> 00:32:32,066
And immediately I
realized what had

428
00:32:32,066 --> 00:32:34,500
happened, that the
project has ended.

429
00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:43,300
If I hadn t owned the property,
I would have never gone this
far.

430
00:32:43,433 --> 00:32:46,667
I wasn t working with
material I was familiar with.

431
00:32:48,066 --> 00:32:50,800
I took a chance, and
it didn t work.

432
00:33:11,033 --> 00:33:16,266
I was pretty shocked that two
years of his work were ruined.

433
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,300
I know when I have something
mess up that I ve been working

434
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:26,800
on even for a couple of days,
I get really pissed off.

435
00:33:28,266 --> 00:33:30,800
Maybe I have more attachment
to the final product

436
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:36,300
than he obviously does,
because he wasn t so upset.

437
00:33:37,233 --> 00:33:39,800
I don t know, it was a shock.

438
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:44,367
All this time he d spent working
on it, it s just over in a
blink.

439
00:33:44,367 --> 00:33:49,066
And I think the next day he
was off onto something else.

440
00:33:50,233 --> 00:33:53,600
The process is something
that takes everything

441
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,100
I ve got and it gives
me something back

442
00:33:57,100 --> 00:34:02,066
while I'm doing it that is
intangible so I have not lost
that time.

443
00:34:02,066 --> 00:34:07,033
I've lost the results of that
time to have it as a tangible
end result,

444
00:34:07,033 --> 00:34:09,800
I m not going to have that,
but I could say that

445
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,734
about a lot of the other
stuff that I've done.

446
00:34:13,367 --> 00:34:16,100
He had always said that this
was going to be his last cave.

447
00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:21,333
So I figured that once that
collapsed that maybe he would

448
00:34:21,333 --> 00:34:25,500
start writing or do something
else creative with his time.

449
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:30,033
But sure enough, he found
another place to dig.

450
00:34:42,467 --> 00:34:46,700
My wife Nancy and I were sitting
at home a few days after he told
us

451
00:34:46,700 --> 00:34:49,400
about this and I thought I just
gotta call him up and console

452
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,100
him and make sure he's not
suicidal or something like that.

453
00:34:55,066 --> 00:34:57,667
So I called up and
he said, "Pierre!

454
00:34:57,667 --> 00:35:01,333
You gotta see this new site,
I ve got a whole project up in
the hills.

455
00:35:01,333 --> 00:35:03,000
The collapse of that
one was just what

456
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,667
I needed to get me where
I really need to go.

457
00:35:11,166 --> 00:35:13,100
Even though he got
through it so quick,

458
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:19,734
I'm still processing the
collapse of the old cave and
it's a little scary.

459
00:35:21,233 --> 00:35:24,734
I know there are going to
be times I'll be wondering

460
00:35:24,734 --> 00:35:28,533
where he is and should
I go check on him?

461
00:35:29,367 --> 00:35:32,300
This is the Ojo
Caliente sandstone

462
00:35:32,734 --> 00:35:34,467
I know what I m doing
in this stuff.

463
00:35:34,467 --> 00:35:37,300
I ve had 25 years of
experience in it.

464
00:35:39,033 --> 00:35:41,033
This is the place.

465
00:35:48,667 --> 00:35:51,367
It's the new Magnum Opus.

466
00:35:52,266 --> 00:35:54,533
But I'm on a time crunch
as far as the aging

467
00:35:54,533 --> 00:35:57,700
process so I'm just going
to have to go for it.

468
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,166
I can safely say it'll
probably take 10 years

469
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,066
the rest of my
cave digging life.

470
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,800
Today is day one of dig day.

471
00:36:07,433 --> 00:36:10,266
October 8th, 2010.

472
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,000
All s well that ends.

473
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:58,700
Okay. Here it goes, Bugs.
Magnum Opus. Take two.