REPORTER:
Mark Davis
The
Dalai Lama has been the cornerstone of Tibetan spiritual and political life
since he first ascended to the theocratic role in 1950.
VOICEOVER: Just 15 years old, was
hurriedly declared of age.
Within
nine years of him coming to the throne, the Chinese army forcibly took control
of Tibet, forcing the Dalai Lama to flee to India, where he established the
Tibetan government in exile. From there, he began a series of democratic
reforms, completely overhauling Tibet's ancient system of government and law,
which has now culminated in his retirement as political leader of the Tibetan
people.
REPORTER:
Much of your life - I mean, you are a spiritual leader, but much of your life
has been consumed with politics. Is that still part of your life?
DALAI LAMA: Still, I'm Dalai Lama, cannot
retire from that.
REPORTER:
The Pope can retire from the pope, apparently. Tibetans were shocked - indeed,
the world was shocked - when you made that announcement. Is it because you
reject theocracy, or was it for more personal reasons?
DALAI LAMA: Actually, reject. It's an
old, outdated sort of system, no matter how sacred. It's outdated, so I must
act according to the first century's new reality. From my childhood, I saw a
lot from our old system. Ultimately, because power, in few people's hand - no
independent judiciary, so since my childhood - very critical about this
situation.
REPORTER:
Retired or not, the Chinese still see you as a political figure, and the
Tibetans still see you as a political figure.
DALAI LAMA: That most important - 6
million Tibetan people, I think 99%, they truly trust me and put a lot of hope
on me. So I have moral responsibility to help them.
REPORTER:
When you left, more than 50 years ago, how long did you think you would be in
exile when that happened?
DALAI LAMA: At that time, you see, I
think no Tibetan expect so long, they have to remain outside, no. I think,
although at that time some Tibetans feel within a few years they can return, I
did not feel that. I myself also not expected for over 54 years now.
REPORTER:
Since your political retirement, have you had more time for spiritual matters?
DALAI LAMA: That's right. Yes. Now, all
my energy, all my time, I can devote to these two fields - promotion of human
value, and promotion of religious harmony. Happy life very much depends on
peace of mind. Peace of mind very much related to a more compassionate heart.
A
more compassionate heart is what many hoped China's new President, Xi Jinping,
would bring to the relationship - especially considering the close ties between
the Chinese President's father and the Dalai Lama's brother. But China's harsh
persecution of Tibetans and its attempts to isolate the Dalai Lama
internationally has been unrelenting.
REPORTER:
China is becoming more powerful, more secure, more confident. But is it showing
any sign of loosening its grip on Tibet?
DALAI LAMA: Like Hu Jintao, when he
became president, his main slogan, his objective, was to build a harmonious
society. It is very useful, very important. But, frankly speaking, 10 years
passed - not much achieved there. I think the method was wrong - relying on the
use of force. You use force, you create fear. Fear destroys trust. Trust is the
basis of harmony. The hardliner believes harmony and unity can be brought by
force. That's totally unscientific, totally wrong. They have to find more
scientific or more realistic methods to build a happy country.
REPORTER:
There's no sign of that, sir. It must be very difficult for you to retain any
optimism that things are going to improve in Tibet - there's no signs of it. It
must be hard on an emotional level for you.
DALAI LAMA: Yes, it is difficult, but
things are changing. I always looked, last 60 years, like Chairman Mao's era, I
consider an era of ideology. Then, Deng Xiaoping - they find economy more
important than just ideology. So, Deng Xiaoping's era concentrated on the
economic field. Now, in some ways, China a becomes a capitalist country.
Socialist country - socialist, just a name. So now, Xi Jinping era. There's not
much choice but to accept some liberalisation in political field.
Without
even a flicker of liberalisation on display, the frustration of Tibetans in and
outside of China has now reached desperation point. In recent years, displayed
in a most disturbing form - Tibetans, mostly young men, setting themselves on
fire as a form of political protest, almost without precedent in Tibetan
history, a wave of self-immolations have occurred since 2009. 130 Tibetans have
now set themselves ablaze. If they happen to survive, they're hospitalised and
then imprisoned.
REPORTER:
There are changes in China. There's also changes in Tibetan culture too, and
some of it not for the better. I'm referring to the rather extreme pattern of
violence, of self-violence, of immolation. Where's it come from, and what's
your position on it?
DALAI LAMA: Very, very sad. This is a
symptom of some causes. Now that, the Chinese government must investigate what
it costs.
REPORTER:
They are investigating, and they say you're the cause, or your clique are the
cause. They believe that you're encouraging this.
DALAI LAMA: That is the hardliners' official view. There is tremendous sadness
about the restriction, about Tibetan religious study. In meantime, this act -
self-burning - also uses some kind of sort of non-violence - such sort of
people easily shoot other people or use explosives, but still, they restrain
just to sacrifice their own life.
REPORTER:
They're hurting themselves. It's horrifying to me. In your view, how could a
boy like this do what he did? What's he thinking?
DALAI LAMA: That's a sign of
determination. Strictly speaking from the Buddhist viewpoint, it ultimately
depends on the motivation. The motivation thinking about Buddhism - then the
action becomes very positive. If such action is carried full of anger, hatred,
then negative.
REPORTER:
You have been criticised for not making a clear statement to condemn these
actions. Do you condemn it, on a spiritual level?
DALAI LAMA: If I say some harsh words,
and what will feel, these family members? They feel great regret.
REPORTER:
Yes.
DALAI LAMA: I cannot support, at the same
time. So, best thing is - remain silence.
REPORTER:
My final question - do you think you'll see Tibet again in your lifetime?
DALAI LAMA: Oh, quite definite. Things
are changing.
REPORTER:
Good! Thank you, sir. I appreciate your time. Thank you.
DALAI LAMA: Thank you. Bye-bye.
ANJALI RAO: Well, things might be
changing, but China's President, Xi Jinping, will be visiting India in the
coming weeks, and is expected to pressure New Delhi to shut down Tibet's
government in exile. You can see Mark's full half-hour interview with the Dalai
Lama online.
Reporter
MARK DAVIS
Producer
DONALD CAMERON
Researcher
MELANIE MORRISON
Editor
WAYNE LOVE
2nd September 2014