KRO Brandpunt Reporter - Who can stop Putin?

Robert Bensch [in English]:
He's the bully on the block. And until you knock him down he will keep pushing you.


00:02:22 to 00:02:25 Vladimir Putin's on the warpath.
00:02:25 to 00:02:28 He annexed the Crimea and unleashed a civil war
00:02:29 to 00:02:32 on the edge of Europe, causing thousands of deaths.

Sergei Nikitin[in English]:
We are having a very dangerous player on the global stage.

00:02:36 to 00:02:42 War moved closer when flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine, leaving 298 innocent civilians dead,
00:02:43 to 00:02:48 bringing outrage in the west, and prompting defiance from the east

Dutch minister [in English]:
Did they look each other in the eye, one final time, in a wordless goodbye? We will never know.

Shevtsova [in English]:
The West shares responsibility for what has happened.

Andrei Piontkovsky [in English]:
You in the West, you don't understand whom are you dealing with.

Oneliner Putin:
We have enough power and courage to defend our freedom.

TITLE: Who can stop Putin?

00:04:00 to 00:04:02 Kiev, the Ukrainian capital.
00:04:02 to 00:04:05 700 kilometers west from the front line,
00:04:05 to 00:04:09 where the Ukrainian army is fighting against pro-Russian separatists.
00:04:09 to 00:04:12 Alexander Lapko lives in the suburbs -
00:04:12 to 00:04:14 here, with his mother.
00:04:14 to 00:04:17 They offer a warm welcome. Coffee, cake, small talk ...
00:04:17 to 00:04:21 A brief distraction from larger concerns.
00:04:21 to 00:04:24 Alexander's worried he should be in the army
00:04:24 to 00:04:27 helping fight against the enemy in the east.

Alexander Lapko [in English]:
A: You know, I think that this war is nonsense, and there is no reasons. It's the most unreasonable war. There is nothing to fight for.
Q: But on the Ukrainian side they probably say they are dying for their country. (audio: Yeah, that's true)
A: Yes, they are. They are dying for their country. It's really, these are questions you can't ... it's not really an easy one.

00:05:04 to 00:05:09 But there are men who, unlike Alexander, want to fight.
00:05:09 to 00:05:12 They can join the so-called Azov regiment:
00:05:12 to 00:05:16 a paramilitary unit consisting entirely of volunteers.

Spokesman Mikhail Oreshnikov:

7: 01: 00: 27: 01 01: 00: 33: 02 06:01
And how many people come here
to become a member of the Azov regiment?

8: 01: 00: 33: 05 01: 00: 37: 18 04:13
About one hundred per month.

10: 01: 00: 41: 03 01: 00: 45: 15 04:12
They are properly considered.
Capable persons are being selected.

11: 01: 00: 45: 18 01: 00: 49: 15 03:22
Their military skills will be taken into consideration ...

12: 01: 00: 49: 18 01: 00: 52: 15 02:22
... but that's not very important.

13: 01: 00: 52: 18 01: 00: 56: 00 03:07
The most important thing is that they are willing to defend their homeland.

00:05:44 to 00:05:50 The Azov regiment is controversial. Some members have been accused of extreme right-wing sympathies.
00:05:50 to 00:05:55 But in times of war, motives matter less than results.
00:05:55 to 00:06:00 In the Eastern Ukraine members of this corps are fighting side-by-side with soldiers of the government army.

Spokesman Mikhail Oreshnikov:

21: 01: 01: 28: 18 01: 01: 37: 13 08:20
What are the duties of the Azov regiment in the fight against the rebels?

22: 01: 01: 37: 16 01: 01: 40: 18 03:02
The defense of Mariopol ...

23: 01: 01: 40: 21 01: 01: 47: 24 07:03
... and the purification of cities if necessary.

00:06:21 to 00:06:26 These are all pictures of volunteers killed fighting the separatists.
00:06:26 to 00:06:30 Alexander Lapko fears that he too may have to go to the front.
00:06:33 to 00:06:37 His brother Yura is already in a war zone, and regularly calls home.

Phone call, Yura:

Tell me, how you're doing?

5: 00: 00: 59: 00 00: 01: 02: 10 03:10
If you don't understand a word because of the noise over here ...

36: 00: 03: 23: 07 00: 03: 27: 01 03:19
The little town of Schastja is being shot, they are nearby.

37: 00: 03: 27: 04 00: 03: 28: 13 01:09
Yes, I understand.

38: 00: 03: 30: 06 00: 03: 31: 15 01:09
Clear.

39: 00: 03: 31: 18 00: 03: 35: 15 03:22
I heard on the news that it has been fired at from the other side.

40: 00: 03: 35: 18 00: 03: 37: 11 01:18
So from across the border.

41: 00: 03: 38: 17 00: 03: 43: 02 04:10
They shot from Russia, today.
- Yes.

00:07:09 to 00:07:14 But soldiers like Alexander's brother are not just threatened by war violence.
00:07:14 to 00:07:17 The Ukrainian army is plagued by corruption
00:07:17 to 00:07:22 And sometimes the money designated for troop equipment has already disappeared.
00:07:22 to 00:07:28 This leaves the families of fighters facing tough choices..

Alexander Lapko [in English]:
A: The uniform, we bought it ex, like used, second hand, a NATO uniform, we do not know which nation, and the rest of equipment we had a good deal on body armor.
Q: Where does one buy body armor?
A: Yeah, I do not know.
Q: But you did.
A: My mum did this. And as for helmet, I only know that it's Israeli, and the body armor is Ukrainian. But all of this is really costly, and for the average family it's, I would not say next to impossible, if it's about your life, you will find a way, but it's really complicated.

00:08:20 to 00:08:23 The Azov regiment is also responsible for its own finances.
00:08:23 to 00:08:27 According to a volunteer, the corps receives hardly any financial support from the government,
00:08:27 to 00:08:30 and is highly dependent on donations.

81: 01: 06: 15: 10 01: 06: 18: 12 03:02
We help wherever we can and raise money ...

82: 01: 06: 18: 15 01: 06: 21: 04 02:14
... for generators, clothing and boots.

83: 01: 06: 21: 07 01: 06: 25: 22 04:15
The government is not doing enough.

84: 01: 06: 26: 00 01: 06: 31: 01 05:01
Therefore, everything comes down on the shoulders of volunteers, the true patriots.

7: 01: 06: 37: 21 01: 06: 42: 00 04:04
We have just brought 100 pounds of lard.

88: 01: 06: 42: 03 01: 06: 44: 02 01:24
That's what the fighters need.

89: 01: 06: 44: 05 01: 06: 48: 02 03:22
To prepare food or for medicinal purposes.

00:08:57 to 00:09:02 On the edge of Europe, Ukraine is at war with pro-Russian separatists.
00:09:02 to 00:09:06 4,300 people have already died ...
00:09:06 to 00:09:10 and according to the United Nations this number is growing by 13 deaths every day.
00:09:11 to 00:09:17 Ukraine increasingly appears to be fighting against Russia directly.
00:09:18 to 00:09:21 The question is: what is the agenda of the man
00:09:21 to 00:09:25 some argue is most responsible for the conflict?
00:09:38 to 00:09:40 May 7, 2012, the Kremlin.
00:09:40 to 00:09:45 This is the inauguration of Vladimir Putin, President of Russia.
00:09:46 to 00:09:51 He starts his third term as head of state, a unique achievement in Russian history.
00:09:52 to 00:09:53 Putin looks relaxed.
00:09:58 to 00:10:01 But the president is not without worries. The day before,
00:10:02 to 00:10:05 tens of thousands of people took to the streets of Moscow,
00:10:05 to 00:10:08 in a mass demonstration against the inauguration.
00:10:08 to 00:10:12 One of the protesters is Misha Kosenko.

Ksenia Kosenko:

26: 01: 03: 06: 17 01: 03: 11: 24 05:07
He went there because he was convinced ...

27: 01: 03: 12: 02 01: 03: 16: 10 04:08
... that the result of the elections was forged.

00:10:32 to 00:10:34 The protest starts peacefully.
00:10:34 to 00:10:39 But as the protesters arrive at Bolotnaya Square, the demonstration becomes chaotic.
00:11:01 to 00:11:04 This is not a common scene in Putin's Russia.
00:11:04 to 00:11:08 Riot police intervene.
00:11:08 to 00:11:13 His sister explains how Misha became involved in the clashes.

Ksenia Kosenko:

At a certain moment a group of three officers ...

44: 01: 04: 50: 07 01: 04: 55: 05 04:23
... stepped to the crowd to pick up one of the demonstrators.

47: 01: 05: 09: 20 01: 05: 11: 23 02:03
Misha stood near there ...

48: 01: 05: 12: 01 01: 05: 17: 14 05:13
... and when the police wanted to pick up someone and tried to drag ...

49: 01: 05: 17: 17 01: 05: 22: 05 04:13
... he tried to hold that man, and he succeeded.

50: 01: 05: 22: 08 01: 05: 29: 04 06:21
The police retreated and then the crowd started to hit the cop.

52: 01: 05: 40: 00 01: 05: 42: 04 02:04
He didn't fight himself?
- No.

00:11:45 to 00:11:48 According to his sister, Misha Kosenko didn't use any violence.
00:11:49 to 00:11:52 She is receiving support from Amnesty International.
00:11:52 to 00:11:55 The human rights organization studied the images
00:11:55 to 00:11:58 and is convinced of Kosenko's innocence.

Sergei Nikitin [in English]
I saw the video footage. It's amazing that someone is standing there absolutely peacefully and quiet in spite of the fact there is kind of fighting around him.

00:12:08 to 00:12:14 The demonstration against Putin appeared to have few immediate consequences for Misha Kosenko.
00:12:14 to 00:12:17 But a month after the riot, he was arrested.

Sergei Nikitin [in English]:
I think it was meant as a signal, because there were quite well known dissenters, protestors there in the crowd. They could easly be taken by law enforcement agency, they could easily be taken to the court, but it didn't happen. Generally speaking it was unknown people, just ordinary people who happened to be there, they were chosen, they were taken. To me it looks like a message to the whole society: you could be there, you could be on his place or on her place.

00:12:49 to 00:12:52 In October 2013, Misha Kosenko was sentenced.
00:12:53 to 00:12:57 Human rights organizations speak of a show trial.
00:12:57 to 00:13:02 According to his sister, the authorities exploited her brothers illness.
00:13:02 to 00:13:05 Kosenko suffered from a mild form of schizophrenia.
00:13:05 to 00:13:10 The judge sentenced him to forced hospitalization in a psychiatric institution.
00:13:11 to 00:13:14 Since June this year, Kosenko has been free,
00:13:15 to 00:13:19 but he's forced to visit a psychiatrist each month.

Ksenia Kosenko:

01: 36: 28: 20 01: 36: 32: 20 04:00
He said that during the first meeting, the doctor ...

257: 01: 36: 32: 23 01: 36: 39: 20 06:22
... had the report with him stating that he was forced to be treated.

258: 01: 36: 39: 23 01: 36: 45: 19 05:21
The doctor said: my job is to ensure that you do not go to demonstrations anymore.

259: 01: 36: 45: 22 01: 36: 48: 17 02:20
That's psychiatry.

260: 01: 36: 48: 20 01: 36: 54: 15 05:20
Soviet issues have now become Russian issueus. Nothing has changed.

00:13:55 to 00:13:59 The riots on Bolotnaya Square did nothing to prevent
00:13:59 to 00:14:03 the inaugeration of Vladimir Putin as the new head of state one day later.
00:14:04 to 00:14:07 Yet the mass protest did have an affect on Putin.
00:14:09 to 00:14:14 According to an author of several Putin biographies, the public dissatisfaction was to radically change his political course.

Lilia Shevtsova [in English]:
Before Bolotnaya, before the protests, Putin's based his rule upon one premise: we are together with Europe, we are moving towards Europe, we are imitating Europe's democratic institutions. Now he is basing his rule on another premise: Europe and the West are enemies and we are going to contain the West. Everywhere, not only in Russia. And we are going to expand our traditional values around the globe.

Q: Why this change of course?

Because he apparently understood that if he leaves this people, Bolotnaya people, a bit of freedom, a half-open window, they would demand more and he did not want to give anything. Because if you give them one finger, they will tear off the whole hand. So he decided just to change the paradigm and return to the old soviet times. Close the doors, close the windows and consolidate the society on the basis of the enemy. Besieged fortress, this is the Russian invention, nothing new.

00:15:38 to 00:15:41 Putin has encouraged an old fashioned Russian idea
00:15:42 to 00:15:45 as part of a plan to keep him in power for years.
00:15:45 to 00:15:51 It's about the contrast between us and them; Russia vs the rest of the world.
00:15:51 to 00:15:55 And it's a story that requires a strong leader.
00:15:58 to 00:16:03 The new message is spread through the familiar medium of television.
00:16:03 to 00:16:08 Critics say the major television stations in Russia are strictly controlled by the Kremlin.
00:16:09 to 00:16:15 But at small stations, some criticism is still possible.


Medvedev [in English]:
Dozhd is a very small and independent channel, but, you know, with a very high impact.

00:16:22 to 00:16:26 Sergei Medvedev has his own show on TV Dozhd.
00:16:27 to 00:16:29 He doesn't attract many viewers.
00:16:29 to 00:16:32 The programs being produced here
00:16:32 to 00:16:36 have not been broadcast by Russian national TV since the beginning of the year.
00:16:36 to 00:16:41 The station believes it has been banned from the airwaves under false pretenses.
00:16:41 to 00:16:46 Now the station can only be seen on the internet, and attracts a small, select audience.

Sergei Medvedev [English]:
With us you have to go online, you have to install smart TV, buy the subscription, and I would say the top or urban middle class is doing this. In a sense, I would say we are preaching to the choir, because anyway we are with the same crowd that went out to protest on Bolotnaya Square.

00:17:08 to 00:17:11 As the channels critical of the regime move to the internet,
00:17:11 to 00:17:15 remaining broadcast tv stations continue to toe the official Kremlin line.
00:17:16 to 00:17:21 The president is broadcast to the people night after night.

Sergei Nikitin [in English]
Just imagine average Russian person living in small village. They have an aerial, and they receive two, three channels and these are pro-Kremlin channels, no criticism whatsoever. Sometimes 100% on how bad things are in Ukraine, how bad things are in Western Europe and the United States. It reminds me about good old Soviet days, when we had news like that.

Lilia Shevtsova [in English]:
You'll see totally Orwellian propaganda. A lot of lies, half-truths, used to distribute one thing: Russia is surrounded by enemies, Russia is constantly being cheated, humiliated by those Western guys, you cannot trust anyone. The only salvation is to fight, to consolidate around the flag, and to consolidate around our president.

00:18:14 to 00:18:18 And the state's message is beginning to filter on to the streets of Moscow.
00:18:18 to 00:18:24 Meet the proud grandmother of patriotic seven year old Sasha.

Grandma:

14: 01: 37: 13: 07 01: 37: 18: 03 04:21
I asked Sasha: do you love anyone?
"I love everyone, especially people from Russia."

15: 01: 37: 18: 06 01: 37: 22: 03 03:22
"Russia is a great country that never wishes evil to anyone."

16: 01: 37: 22: 06 01: 37: 28: 08 06:02
You're right, Sasha: we are peaceful, but we are not loved by many people.

17: 01: 37: 28: 11 01: 37: 32: 19 04:08
"Why not grandmother?"
Because we are a great country.

18: 01: 37: 32: 22 01: 37: 36: 01 03:04
We're a big country with lots of gold, coal and oil.

19: 01: 37: 36: 04 01: 37: 42: 14 06:10
We have everything and America wants to conquer us, but that will not succeed.

20: 01: 37: 42: 17 01: 37: 46: 07 03:15
He said "No, that will never happen." That's the story.

21: 01: 37: 46: 10 01: 37: 50: 03 03:18
This boy grows and he is a true patriot.

22: 01: 37: 50: 06 01: 37: 55: 04 04:23
A true patriot and a great kid.

00:19:10 to 00:19:15 Maidan Square, Kiev, is covered in pictures of men who died in early 2014 - during the uprising that led to the departure of the pro-Russian president Yanukovych.
00:19:23 to 00:19:28 Mustafa Nayem, was one of the first protestors.

Nayem talks about the first "Maidan death".
[In English]
This guy died first ....
He died not here but on Groeshevskogostaat, and it was in January.

How did he die?

Just people was attacking barracades, and someone fired two bullets.
I remember one bullet was in his neck, the other in his heart, and he died.

00:19:56 to 00:19:59 The protests began peacefully.
00:19:59 to 00:20:03 People headed to Maidan Square after the president decided
00:20:04 to 00:20:07 that, provisionally, the Ukraine would not join the European Union.
00:20:07 to 00:20:11 The protesters do not agree with president Yanukovych
00:20:12 to 00:20:14 who seems to be influenced by pressure from Putin.
00:20:14 to 00:20:18 He wants to keep Ukraine within the Russian sphere of influence
00:20:18 to 00:20:21 and that means: no integration with Europe.
00:20:21 to 00:20:26 That's when Mustafa decided to post a call to action on to facebook.

Mustafa Nayem [in English]
My post actually was: if you're really ready to do something, just put some comments to this post that you're really ready. And in one hour more than 600 or 800 people said that they wanted to do something. It was around eight o'clock PM when I posted the message: okay, let's meet there. I mean: I did not expect people would come because it was a very cold and rainy day.

00:20:56 to 00:21:00 What begins as a Facebook action grows into a massive protest.
00:21:01 to 00:21:03 The demonstrations will last for months.
00:21:03 to 00:21:08 And when the eyes of the world are focused on Kiev, Western politicians also find their way to the square,

Frans Timmermans:
00:21:10 to 00:21:13 I've talked to a couple of young people.
00:21:13 to 00:21:18 I asked: what do you want? The simple answer is: to live like you.

Hans van Baalen [in English]:
Never, ever give up.

Van  Baalen [in English]
We are with you. We don't go, we stay with you.
Long live a democratic Ukraine. Thank you.

Frans Timmermans:
00:21:33 to 00:21:35 They are confident.
00:21:35 to 00:21:37 They say there are more and more people coming to the square.
00:21:38 to 00:21:42 More and more people who want to make clear that our government must choose to join Europe.
00:21:42 to 00:21:44 I think it's beautiful.


00:21:44 to 00:21:52 The provocative images of western politicians on Russia's doorstep were viewed with suspicion in Moscow.

Tony Brenton [in English]
Well, it was a mistake, obviously. I mean: the Russians are very suspicious of what they see as Western efforts to humiliate and encircle them.

00:22:04 to 00:22:08 Tony Brenton now teaches at the University of Cambridge.
00:22:08 to 00:22:12 From 2004 to 2008 he was the British ambassador in Moscow.
00:22:12 to 00:22:17 At that time, Brenton had regular personal contact with Putin.
00:22:17 to 00:22:21 In this way, the diplomat learned to understand Russia's suspicion of the West.

Brenton [In English]
So when these demonstrations got going and then Western politicians came down there and supported the demonstrations, what they saw in their suspicious way was a concerted Western attempt to seize control of a country which they had viewed as being very much being part of their own sphere of influence.

00:22:45 to 00:22:49 According to Brenton, Putin can hardly be blamed
00:22:49 to 00:22:53 for seeing the hand of the West in the protests in Kiev.


Brenton [In English]
Let me give you one small example, which is Victoria Nuland. The US official who has been responsible for all this in the State Department, went down to Maidan Square, made a very famous telephone call on an open line where she did one thing, which was roundly abuse the EU's supposed ineffectiveness, you will recall.

Nuland [audio, in English]
That would be great, I think, to help glue this thing, and have the UN help glue it, and you know, fuck the EU.

Brenton [in English]
... But the other thing she did was saying: we want the following people in the Ukrainian government, the new Ukrainian government that's coming.

Nuland [audio, in English]
So, er, I don't think Klytsjko should go into the government, I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea. I think Jatsenjoek is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience...

Brenton [in English]
And she named, in particular, Jatsenjoek as prime minister. Then, a week later, Jatsenjoek is prime minister. What are the Russians with their very suspicious mindset bound to conclude other than this whole thing is manipulated by the CIA on behalf of the Americans.

00:23:59 to 00:24:03 American influence or not, what starts as a peaceful protest,
00:24:03 to 00:24:07 ends in a bloody confrontation that has its origins
00:24:07 to 00:24:10 in pent-up frustration among the population.
00:24:10 to 00:24:13 The demonstrators are fed-up
00:24:13 to 00:24:16 with years of corruption and self-enrichment of the political elite.
00:24:17 to 00:24:23 What starts with a message on Facebook ends in a battle with one hundred deaths.
00:24:31 to 00:24:36 At the end of February 2014, the political crisis ends.
00:24:36 to 00:24:41 The Ukrainian parliament approves the deposition of president Yanukovych.
00:24:45 to 00:24:50 In Moscow, Vladimir Putin knows that he is likely to lose his grip on Ukraine.

Tony Brenton [in English]:
He and his immediate circle, genuinely feared they were looking at a Western-driven takeover of Ukraine. And, in a sense, panicked and said: well, what can we rescue from this mess? And the obvious thing was the naval base in Sebastopol, and the Crimea, and therefor they took the steps that led to the annexation of Crimea.

00:25:17 to 00:25:19 A few days after the revolution in Kiev
00:25:20 to 00:25:25 Russian military forces seize power in the Crimea, the southern peninsula of Ukraine.
00:25:27 to 00:25:30 Vladimir Putin denies any involvement
00:25:30 to 00:25:35 but is satisfied as he speaks to the Russian parliament a few weeks later.

Putin:
Dear friends, we have gathered here today in connection with an issue that's of vital, historic significance to all of us. A referendum was held in Crimea on March 16, in full compliance with democratic procedures and international norms.

More than 82 percent of the electorate took part in the vote. About 96 percent of them spoke out in favor of reuniting with Russia. These numbers speak for themelves.

00:26:09 to 00:26:11 Applause for the president,
00:26:11 to 00:26:16 who claims he has only acted on the will of the Crimean people.
00:26:16 to 00:26:20 But in reality, according to Lilia Shevtsova, the annexation
00:26:21 to 00:26:23 is about a very different point in Putin's agenda.

Shevtsova [in English]
First of all to consolidate Russians around him and the idea of defending Russians and building the Russian world. And it worked, because the annexation of Crimea brought him 88% approval rating. And the annexation of Crimea allowed him to shift Russia into an absolutely new model of survival. As a war country and he became a war president.

00:26:55 to 00:26:59 The annexation of the Crimea, the conflict with the West ...
00:26:59 to 00:27:05 Vladimir Putin is using it mainly to strengthen his domestic political position.
00:27:08 to 00:27:12 Putin thinks the citizens of a threatened nation
00:27:12 to 00:27:17 seek support and safety in their leader, instead of asking difficult questions.
00:27:21 to 00:27:23 The president is very clear.

Putin speech:
Some Western politicians are already threatening us with not just sanctions but also the prospect of increasingly serious problems on the domestic front. I would like to know what it is they exactly have in mind: action by a fifth column, this disparate bunch of 'national traitors', or are they hoping to put us in a worsening social and economic situation so as to provoke public discontent?

00:27:46 to 00:27:51 Andrei Zubov is seen by Putin as a traitor.
00:27:51 to 00:27:56 He is an historian who has sharply criticized the annexation of the Crimea.

Zubov [in English]
I immediately saw the parallels with behavior of Nazi Germany in surrounding countries with German population.

Putin speech:
Millions of Russians and Russian-speaking people live in Ukraine and will continue to do so. Russia will always defend their interests using political, diplomatic and legal means.

00:28:23 to 00:28:26 It's the same reasoning, said Zubov, that was used by Hitler ...
00:28:27 to 00:28:29 when he annexed Austria and the Sudetenland.

Zubov [in English]:
In all these places a German population was predominant. And because of Nazi propaganda many German people of these regions wanted to be unified, to be in one state with Germany. There were special parties, special movements. And in March 1938 Hitler decided to start this process of unification of all German populated land.

00:29:07 to 00:29:11 The professor publishes his criticism on the internet.
00:29:12 to 00:29:16 A few days later, he's called to the board of the university where he works,
00:29:17 to 00:29:20 which falls directly under the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.


Zubov [in English]:
My head of my chair in philosophy at Moscow University told me that I ought to resign from my state of professor of university, because I made immoral steps, immoral activity.

00:29:42 to 00:29:44 Zubov was fired
00:29:44 to 00:29:47 thanks to his criticism of president Putin.
00:29:47 to 00:29:53 He says he gets support from colleagues, some of them even resigning out of protest.
00:29:54 to 00:29:57 But in the eyes of others, Zubov becomes a leper.

Zubov [in English]:
Even some of my friends, colleagues. They stop calling me, stop writing me and when I with them on some obligation in somewhere in conference, they prefer not to express even that they are acquainted with me.
33:04
They are afraid. They remember Soviet times, when these dissidents, people who were against regime, were almost untouchable persons.
Pariah's.
Pariah's, yes. They decide that time is the same now. But there is another reason. Many of them think in the depth of their heart, that just as I did, and they are specialists in foreign relations, international relations, international laws, they understand well that that Putin did very bad things for Russia. But they are afraid to express it. And I was not afraid, so they hated me because I did the things they did not do.

00:31:17 to 00:31:18 Who can challenge Putin's authority?
00:31:18 to 00:31:22 The Russians themselves, the West, or Ukraine?
00:31:22 to 00:31:24 The country seems to stand alone.
00:31:24 to 00:31:28 It wants weapons, but the West refuses to deliver them.
00:31:28 to 00:31:32 Support for Ukraine is limited to economic sanctions against Moscow.

Bensh [in English]:
I think Ukraine needs to realize that no one is going to come rescue them.

00:31:38 to 00:31:44 Robert Bensh is a US gas trader who's lived and worked in Ukraine for years now.
00:31:45 to 00:31:48 According to Bensh Europe, doesn't care about Ukraine.
00:31:49 to 00:31:53 And the sanctions? Those were only imposed because there was nothing else to be done.

Bensh [in English]:
And they were forced upon Europe because of the airliner that went down. If not for that airliner going down the calculus within in Ukraine would be different, the sanctions would be different. What made people care about Ukraine? After Crimea and to this day forward? It's that airliner going down. Without that airline going down there are no additional sanctions.

00:32:19 to 00:32:24 The American repeats what we have often heard during our trip in Ukraine.
00:32:24 to 00:32:27 The MH17 disaster was terrible ...
00:32:28 to 00:32:30 but it was the best thing that could have happened in Ukraine.
00:32:30 to 00:32:35 Because it turned the West into an ally in the fight against Putin.
00:32:35 to 00:32:43 It's a controversial opinion, and it's questionable what difference it will really make to Putin.

Brenton [in English]:
The brutal fact is, that on their core objective, which is changing Russia's political course, they have failed. And this is unsurprising, we in the West have imposed sanctions on Russia six times since the end of the second world war and they have never worked. The Russian response to that sort of external pressure is always to gather the wagons and stand tough.
So why do we Impose sanctions? Gallery play?
Yeah, politicians have to be seen to, quote, doing something, unquote, sanctions is all they've got.

00:33:18 to 00:33:21 Time will tell whether the sanctions will have effect.
00:33:21 to 00:33:25 The fact is that the economic outlook is poor.
00:33:25 to 00:33:27 The ruble is under pressure.
00:33:27 to 00:33:31 The price of oil, which is very important for Russian economy, is decreasing.
00:33:31 to 00:33:36 But this will probably not stop Putin.

Shevtsova [in English]:
A lot of people distrust Mr. Putin. Even more people in Moscow loath Mr. Putin. And at the same time they do approve, they do support his activity, why? Because they are afraid of chaos. They are afraid that if Putin collapses, if Putin goes down in flames, the state will unravel, which is a possibility.

00:34:05 to 00:34:09 In Kiev, the fall of Putin would be greeted with cheers.
00:34:09 to 00:34:11 Certainly by Alexander Lapko and his mother ...
00:34:12 to 00:34:15 who hope the war will come to an end as quickly as possible.

Lapko [in English]:
Q: How is this war going to end?
A: And when? Well, the Ukraine will win. That's for sure. But I do not know when. And how many lives it will take.
Q: What makes you so sure Ukraine will win?
A: Because good guys always win (laughs)