RADIO HOST

00:00:57:07,   00:00:59:12,   Good evening,|ladies and gentelmen

00:00:59:14,   00:01:01:19,   welcome back,|once again

00:01:02:01,   00:01:06:05,   As always, you and me, here and now.

00:01:08:12,   00:01:09:20,   Just imagine...

00:01:10:08,   00:01:12:24,   June 9th, 1930.

00:01:13:11,   00:01:16:02,   The couple had finally made it to Madrid

00:01:16:07,   00:01:20:16,   in the suffocating heat|of Atocha Station, Spain.

00:01:21:09,   00:01:24:06,   There was no way that|that couple followed by

00:01:24:06,   00:01:27:05,   an entourage of sweaty|young men hauling trunks

00:01:27:11,   00:01:29:13,   could go unnoticed.

00:01:30:12,   00:01:31:06,   She...

00:01:32:11,   00:01:37:22,   the beautiful Lidia Lopokova,|lead ballerina of the Moscow ballet...

00:01:38:10,   00:01:43:03,   Because of her poise you|could tell she felt proud.

00:01:44:00,   00:01:44:13,   He...

00:01:45:08,   00:01:47:01,   J. M. Keynes,

00:01:47:18,   00:01:50:17,   probably the most|important economist in history,

00:01:50:18,   00:01:53:10,   seemed restless and pensive.

00:01:54:19,   00:01:57:01,   Perhaps he felt the pressure

00:01:57:01,   00:02:01:08,   of having to speak at the|Residencia de Estudiantes,

00:02:03:05,   00:02:07:06,   a special place where you|could feel the future in the air...

00:02:07:16,   00:02:10:05,   This was a place where vanguard

00:02:10:05,   00:02:14:04,   artists like Lorca,|Dalí and Buñuel had studied.

00:02:15:24,   00:02:16:22,   The next day,

00:02:17:09,   00:02:18:12,   on June 10th,

00:02:18:23,   00:02:23:23,   he stood in front of an expectant|audience which he left in awe...

00:02:24:16,   00:02:30:10,   It was a controversial conference|which seems surprising even today.

00:02:31:11,   00:02:36:04,   He explained what we|would be like a hundred year from then.

00:02:37:12,   00:02:43:22,   The economy will cease|to be a problem for mankind,

00:02:44:08,   00:02:47:04,   the world will be much richer

00:02:47:04,   00:02:52:23,   and technology will allow|men to work just 15 hours a week.

00:02:54:24,   00:02:59:08,   Today we know that he was|not wrong with his predictions,

00:02:59:24,   00:03:03:20,   economic progress has greatly|surpassed his expectations

00:03:03:24,   00:03:07:00,   and wealth has grown more than ever.

00:03:07:07,   00:03:13:18,   So why can we figure out|how to manage these benefits?

00:03:14:22,   00:03:18:16,   Why is there more and more inequality?

00:03:20:20,   00:03:27:07,   Why do we have this sensation|of living life on a tight wire?

 

 

BAUMAN

00:03:58:18,   00:04:01:17,   Well, it's a great|thing which is happening,

00:04:01:19,   00:04:03:23,   that for the first time in history,

00:04:04:05,   00:04:06:02,   the idea of humanity

00:04:06:14,   00:04:08:15,   is a reality.

00:04:09:06,   00:04:11:21,   We are already all in the same boat,

00:04:12:23,   00:04:16:00,   but what we lack,

00:04:16:05,   00:04:19:15,   is actually the oars,|you know, and the engines

00:04:19:22,   00:04:24:01,   which can direct this|boat in the right direction.

 

 

MÚJICA

00:04:50:10,   00:04:53:13,   I think that nowadays we live,|in average, 40 years longer

00:04:53:15,   00:04:56:02,   than we used to 100 years ago.

00:04:56:14,   00:05:02:05,   That... That's a lot more than a|feat reached by great technicians.

00:05:02:21,   00:05:07:12,   But the problem is that|globalization has no political control.

00:05:08:04,   00:05:09:16,   Or rather...

00:05:09:16,   00:05:14:01,   Political control in the world|is nowadays made by globalization.

00:05:14:14,   00:05:17:00,   We don't master globalization.

00:05:17:12,   00:05:19:23,   Globalization masters us.

00:05:20:22,   00:05:22:09,   Imperatively

 

 

LATOUCHE

00:05:31:21,   00:05:35:19,   If we had to give a|starting date to globalization,

00:05:36:02,   00:05:39:14,   It'd be the fall of the Berlin wall,|which brought an end to the second world

00:05:39:14,   00:05:42:04,   and consequently to the third as well.

00:05:42:16,   00:05:44:05,   Now there's nothing more than one world

00:05:44:06,   00:05:46:00,   dominated by just one thought

00:05:46:01,   00:05:49:04,   the thought of the|ultraliberal economy.

00:05:49:05,   00:05:52:08,   Which was anticipated by|"The unidimensional hominid" by Marcuse

00:05:52:16,   00:05:58:13,   What's new isn't the world-wide market,

00:05:58:19,   00:06:01:22,   but the globalization of the market.

 

 

 

 

MÚJICA

00:06:04:14,   00:06:09:03,   There have been several globalizations|throughout mankind's history

00:06:09:05,   00:06:12:21,   In all of them a|military force was involved

00:06:14:19,   00:06:18:15,   This one is a globalization|created by our economy.

00:06:19:13,   00:06:20:24,   Fundamentally our economy.

00:06:21:01,   00:06:25:08,   We could not fix worldwide|agreement frameworks

00:06:26:10,   00:06:31:24,   which take us to govern us at least|in some bearings as a specie.

00:06:32:07,   00:06:35:15,   We still think in a country-minded way.

00:06:37:11,   00:06:43:00,   Country leaders should|be governing 3 or 4 days

00:06:43:02,   00:06:46:05,   per week for their countries|and 2 or 3 days for the world.

00:06:46:08,   00:06:48:12,   For the world!

 

 

BAUMAN

00:06:56:09,   00:06:58:09,   Well, globalization happens to us.|We are not making it really.

00:07:00:00,   00:07:02:00,   I don't think it's|possible to revert from it.

00:07:06:05,   00:07:10:00,   Globalization in most general meaning,

00:07:10:01,   00:07:15:08,   means simply that we are|all dependent on each other.

00:07:15:10,   00:07:18:04,   Whatever happens on|one place, on the globe...

00:07:18:15,   00:07:23:05,   Has effect on all|the rest of the planet.

00:07:24:10,   00:07:27:22,   And it is virtually impossible|to know in advance

00:07:27:22,   00:07:29:23,   what the consequences will be

00:07:32:10,   00:07:36:06,   And that is probably the most|negative impact of globalization

00:07:36:12,   00:07:41:09,   Because it puts us in a|condition of chronic uncertainty.

00:07:41:11,   00:07:47:07,   Impossibility to know in advance|what the effects of our actions will be.

00:07:59:16,   00:08:05:12,   If labor is too costly|too expensive in Spain,

00:08:05:16,   00:08:10:09,   there's no reason why you|shouldn't go to Africa. Why not?

00:08:10:11,   00:08:13:07,   So different parts|of the globe, they are

00:08:13:07,   00:08:16:21,   all affected by globalization|but in different way.

00:08:17:03,   00:08:19:08,   In different way.

00:08:19:18,   00:08:25:20,   There are plenty of countries in which|local population will be delighted

00:08:25:23,   00:08:31:12,   to perform the same work,|for one tenth of the salary

00:08:31:19,   00:08:37:11,   which german, french or swedish|workers would require.

00:08:37:19,   00:08:42:03,   and hence industry is moving away,|from most of Europe.

00:08:42:06,   00:08:46:15,   We are losing industry.|It's transferred elsewhere.

 

 

SPAIN

00:09:01:17,   00:09:05:18,   At the door of the place|where we were working,

00:09:06:06,   00:09:09:02,   there would be supervisors|from other construction

00:09:09:02,   00:09:11:17,   sites to talk to the|workers as they came out.

00:09:11:20,   00:09:13:14,   They'd say: "Hey you!|How much are you making?"

00:09:14:00,   00:09:16:17,   -"Well, they're paying|me 10 pesetas per hour."

00:09:18:06,   00:09:20:06,   -"I'll pay you 12".|And people would leave.

00:09:20:11,   00:09:23:22,   Well, those were other times, at|the time there was plenty of work.

 

 

SOUTH AMERICA

00:09:24:08,   00:09:27:00,   During some time|I was a concrete inspector.

00:09:27:15,   00:09:30:21,   And one day I found myself|in a cement truck with this guy

00:09:31:16,   00:09:35:23,   and he says: "Well, I am doctor and..."

00:09:36:06,   00:09:39:09,   And I said: "A doctor?|And you are here concreting roads?"

00:09:39:16,   00:09:44:06,   There wasn't much work at the time|so people did whatever they could.

 

 

NIGERIA

00:09:45:11,   00:09:49:13,   These days, many of us that go abroad

00:09:49:13,   00:09:51:08,   they always come back home.

00:09:51:20,   00:09:54:12,   Because there are|lots of jobs opportunities.

00:09:55:11,   00:09:59:04,   Many companies, industries...

00:09:59:12,   00:10:03:13,   have been created in Nigeria these days.

 

 

 

 

RUSSIA

00:10:04:00,   00:10:10:11,   If the police found you in the|street in work hours they’d say:

00:10:10:13,   00:10:16:23,   -Come with us, we’ll find you a job|-You’ll find you one.

 

 

PAKISTAN

00:10:17:17,   00:10:20:09,   In Pakistan, I come from Gujranawal, and|work was pretty good.

00:10:20:14,   00:10:21:10,   -Yes.

00:10:21:13,   00:10:25:11,   We had a workshop, I was there|during 11 years... Lots of work.

00:10:25:13,   00:10:29:11,   but clients many times wouldn’t pay.|It was really difficult to get money.

 

 

 

 

SOUTH AMERICA

00:10:30:00,   00:10:33:12,   It's curious to hear from friends|who are going to Chile for work

00:10:33:16,   00:10:37:08,   because Chile is economically|very stable at the moment.

 

 

SPAIN

00:10:37:17,   00:10:39:16,   That's just like what|happened on Mondays mornings,

00:10:39:18,   00:10:41:15,   practically nobody would work.

00:10:41:22,   00:10:43:04,   There was that thing of:

00:10:43:04,   00:10:46:03,   "Well, if you fire me,|I'll just work for someone else."

00:10:46:08,   00:10:47:23,   Nobody would show up.

00:10:48:19,   00:10:50:02,   They'd all have hangovers.

 

 

ATKINSON

00:11:06:01,   00:11:11:18,   Well I think globalization has been|and is transforming our world.

00:11:12:08,   00:11:17:16,   If we look back to the last few|centuries, we saw a time when

00:11:17:18,   00:11:20:19,   parts of the world,|Europe and the United States,

00:11:20:19,   00:11:23:08,   pulled ahead in|terms of economic success.

00:11:23:17,   00:11:27:17,   and there was a great divergence|between what was happening there

00:11:27:19,   00:11:30:06,   and what was happening|in the rest of the world

00:11:30:09,   00:11:34:01,   and in the last 10, 20, 30|years we've seen that

00:11:34:04,   00:11:36:13,   divergence becoming convergence.

00:11:36:18,   00:11:40:15,   We now have in many parts of the world,|but not quite all,

00:11:40:18,   00:11:45:16,   because some areas are clearly|not enjoying the same economic benefits

00:11:45:21,   00:11:50:03,   but nonetheless we have seen|dramatic improvements for example

00:11:50:05,   00:11:53:14,   reductions of people|living in absolute poverty

00:11:53:18,   00:11:56:13,   in countries like China,|India, and elsewhere.

00:11:56:17,   00:11:58:24,   Which is really I think is...

00:11:59:01,   00:12:01:13,   a very observable, positive,

00:12:01:13,   00:12:05:16,   dramatic change in|the situation of the world.

 

 

RADIO HOST

00:12:10:13,   00:12:15:02,   Now I'd like to talk to you|about a revealing report by

00:12:15:02,   00:12:18:23,   Professor Glenn Fairball|that I recently read.

00:12:19:09,   00:12:23:06,   It discusses how so called|globalization, a very complex process

00:12:23:06,   00:12:26:23,   plagued with profound|contradictions and tragical paradoxes,

00:12:27:20,   00:12:29:21,   is leading to a change.

00:12:29:21,   00:12:34:16,   To a trend inversion in|terms of planetary inequality.

00:12:37:10,   00:12:40:12,   Surprisingly enough, for some time now,

00:12:40:12,   00:12:43:24,   the distance between|rich and poor countries

00:12:44:03,   00:12:46:14,   has been shrinking.

00:12:46:16,   00:12:50:14,   However this is|unfortunately occurring along

00:12:50:14,   00:12:53:23,   with a scandalous unstoppable increase

00:12:54:02,   00:12:59:13,   of the social inequality|within the countries.

00:13:00:19,   00:13:07:24,   Nevertheless could this be a|step forward, even if just a small one?

00:13:08:13,   00:13:12:17,   Some economists do believe it is.

 

 

 

 

GALEGATI

00:13:23:19,   00:13:29:11,   When talking about|the distribution of wealth,

00:13:29:16,   00:13:33:22,   the funny thing is|that studies have shown

00:13:34:00,   00:13:38:04,   that today's distribution is similar

00:13:38:08,   00:13:45:16,   to that of the time of the pharaohs,

00:13:45:20,   00:13:48:21,   2000 years before Christ.

00:13:49:00,   00:13:55:04,   This fits with something rather obvious|known as the Matthew effect,

00:13:55:08,   00:13:58:09,   the Gospel of Matthew, which says:

00:13:58:14,   00:14:02:00,   "Those who have, will be given more,

00:14:02:03,   00:14:07:04,   and those who have less,|will be given less".

 

 

RADIO HOST

00:14:15:21,   00:14:18:24,   Mighty things fall off themselves.

00:14:19:10,   00:14:24:23,   that is the limit assigned by the gods|to the growth of all that prospers

00:14:25:08,   00:14:30:05,   You, Rome, are the|cause of your own woes.

00:14:30:14,   00:14:36:05,   Becoming the common prey of three|despots and their ill-fated deals.

00:14:36:15,   00:14:42:02,   for a Kingdom, until now,|never successfully entrusted to a mob.

00:14:42:24,   00:14:50:09,   You, disastrously concordant and blinded|by desires too great.

00:14:50:11,   00:14:55:23,   what use it is to unite your strength|and rule the world together.

 

 

ATKINSON

00:15:02:11,   00:15:04:19,   Well, I think certainly unemployment is,

00:15:05:01,   00:15:05:13,   I think,

00:15:05:15,   00:15:07:14,   one of the most serious|problems we face

00:15:07:14,   00:15:10:03,   and it's very little,|really, discussed.

00:15:10:06,   00:15:12:17,   And I think it's somehow...|people have come

00:15:12:17,   00:15:15:14,   to accept really quite|high levels of unemployment.

00:15:16:21,   00:15:21:07,   We've somehow let this very|important concern disappear.

00:15:21:12,   00:15:23:10,   And we have, particularly in the case

00:15:23:10,   00:15:25:24,   of young people,|tolerated levels of unemployment

00:15:26:00,   00:15:29:11,   which I think are quite unacceptable|and quite damaging for the future.

00:15:29:21,   00:15:31:03,   So I would, myself,

00:15:31:14,   00:15:34:06,   want to see unemployment place, now,

00:15:34:06,   00:15:37:08,   much more in the|priority for governments

00:15:37:12,   00:15:40:10,   and for the EU,|for example, in its policies.

 

 

BAUMAN

00:15:43:22,   00:15:47:03,   When I was young,|when I was your age, really,

00:15:47:08,   00:15:51:02,   then, all governments, struggled

00:15:51:02,   00:15:52:04,   And they promised!

00:15:52:07,   00:15:53:24,   to give full employment,

00:15:53:24,   00:15:55:04,   full employment.

00:15:55:21,   00:15:59:10,   The very word, unemployment,

00:16:00:00,   00:16:01:23,   confirmed this intention.

00:16:02:06,   00:16:05:17,   If you add the prefix|"un" to "employment",

00:16:05:22,   00:16:11:10,   what you are saying is that|un-employment is an abnormal situation.

00:16:12:06,   00:16:14:17,   The normal situation is full employment.

00:16:15:01,   00:16:19:19,   And if it so happens|that there is a little crisis and

00:16:20:00,   00:16:22:01,   some people loose their jobs,

00:16:22:01,   00:16:25:04,   that's a temporary irritant,|we will cure it.

00:16:25:18,   00:16:29:09,   Now, unemployment is a|very seldom used word,

00:16:29:21,   00:16:35:13,   Instead, what we hear...|People are speaking about redundancy.

00:16:36:03,   00:16:40:14,   Redundancy, does not contain|the promise of full employment.

00:16:40:14,   00:16:44:21,   Redundancy means that you are|good for nothing, you are not needed.

00:16:45:15,   00:16:47:23,   There is no demand for your skills.

00:16:48:22,   00:16:52:18,   Mind you, that's the|word which, very often,

00:16:52:18,   00:16:57:00,   even the graduates|from best universities hear.

00:16:57:05,   00:16:58:20,   They are made redundant!

00:16:58:22,   00:17:02:24,   Which means that skills,|which they learned, in a hard work...

00:17:03:01,   00:17:04:18,   Five years of studies!!

00:17:05:12,   00:17:07:08,   There's no demand for them!

00:17:09:08,   00:17:14:12,   So it is salt rubbed into a wound.

 

 

NIGERIA

00:17:34:14,   00:17:35:19,   Yourbà says that

00:17:35:21,   00:17:37:18,   [Speaks Nigerian]

00:17:41:15,   00:17:43:21,   I would like you to translate that.

00:17:44:12,   00:17:51:00,   Yeah, Yourbà say that to work|is for you not to remain in poverty.

00:17:51:13,   00:17:53:13,   So if you work hard

00:17:53:13,   00:17:55:17,   you will get something|good to be able to sustain yourself.

 

 

SOUTH AMERICA

00:17:56:07,   00:18:00:09,   This feeling of "my son having a title"

00:18:00:12,   00:18:02:21,   is something that a lot|of Argentinians still have.

00:18:03:02,   00:18:06:01,   They want their son to study|even though they are seeing that

00:18:06:02,   00:18:08:13,   even if they study, study and study|and are very good at their job,

00:18:08:16,   00:18:12:17,   they will have a hard tim finding a job|of whatever it is that they studied.

00:18:12:20,   00:18:14:15,   It's kind of a disappointment,

00:18:14:15,   00:18:17:22,   because you realize that|the title is not that useful.

 

 

SPAIN

00:18:18:13,   00:18:20:12,   Now if you don't work as a freelance,

00:18:20:12,   00:18:24:11,   it'd be impossible to even think,|being a construction worker or a plumber

00:18:24:14,   00:18:26:12,   now it is almost impossible.

00:18:26:14,   00:18:27:24,   This thing of working as a freelance

00:18:27:24,   00:18:29:22,   which all of sudden|seems to have become a trend,

00:18:30:00,   00:18:33:09,   is the only way of having|some kind of continuity.

 

 

RUSSIA

00:18:33:21,   00:18:36:06,   We actually studied a lot,

00:18:36:06,   00:18:40:16,   but soon after we|finished all of that changed.

00:18:40:20,   00:18:45:13,   All that industry was gone.

00:18:45:15,   00:18:48:11,   When we realized we were sad...

00:18:48:13,   00:18:50:23,   But well...

 

 

SOUTH AMERICA

00:18:51:11,   00:18:55:03,   Marriage, for instance,|doesn't last for ever.

00:18:55:07,   00:18:59:07,   I think we are learning|that things change.

00:18:59:11,   00:19:02:19,   As a kid you're told:|"You'll marry and have a wife..."

00:19:02:20,   00:19:03:22,   Things have changed.

00:19:03:24,   00:19:07:03,   The result is that people|are begging to understand,

00:19:07:03,   00:19:09:12,   that generation who was forced to study

00:19:09:15,   00:19:12:23,   They're beginning to understand.

00:19:12:24,   00:19:15:02,   Why should I waste a|part of my life studying

00:19:15:02,   00:19:18:01,   knowing that, afterwards|I won't be able to use what I learned.

 

 

BRYNJOLFSSON

00:19:52:22,   00:19:55:11,   So, over the past couple of centuries,

00:19:55:11,   00:19:58:18,   we've seen a tremendous growth|in living standards overall.

00:19:58:21,   00:20:01:20,   productivity and|overall income have grown

00:20:02:07,   00:20:05:22,   and along with that the average|person also tended to benefit.

00:20:09:16,   00:20:12:00,   But starting about 15 years ago,

00:20:12:00,   00:20:15:13,   we've seen what Andre Mcafee and|I call "the great decoupling".

00:20:15:20,   00:20:19:06,   which is that while|productivity has continued to grow,

00:20:19:11,   00:20:21:16,   the employment and medium income

00:20:21:16,   00:20:26:02,   of the typical medium worker is|no longer growing, has stagnated.

00:20:29:03,   00:20:30:24,   That social contract that we had,

00:20:31:08,   00:20:35:16,   that a rising tide would lift all|boats seems to no longer be happening.

 

 

BAUMAN

00:21:10:06,   00:21:12:01,   Automation of work.

00:21:12:18,   00:21:15:01,   There are robots, robots which...

00:21:15:13,   00:21:18:13,   virtually, are eliminating

00:21:18:13,   00:21:24:09,   the manual living human|workers from car factories.

00:21:25:02,   00:21:31:14,   Like you said, you are hoping|for intellectual work in your life.

00:21:32:03,   00:21:35:18,   Intellectual work is also|taken over by computers.

00:21:36:08,   00:21:37:19,   More and more and more.

 

 

 

 

BRYNJOLFSSON

00:22:00:04,   00:22:02:12,   The new technologies|are especially good

00:22:02:18,   00:22:04:05,   at automating routine work

00:22:04:05,   00:22:06:22,   and increasingly|many other categories of work.

00:22:07:03,   00:22:09:03,   And there are some sectors|which are especially hard-hit,

00:22:09:03,   00:22:13:03,   especially people who are|doing routine information processing,

00:22:13:06,   00:22:17:19,   that is a repetitive task that|involves processing information.

00:22:18:22,   00:22:22:04,   A bookkeeper or an|accountant or a tax-preparer.

00:22:22:15,   00:22:26:14,   Last time I did my taxes I used a|piece of software called "Turbotax".

00:22:26:14,   00:22:29:19,   It was very efficient,|it only cost 49 dollars...

00:22:30:04,   00:22:33:04,   but it meant that I didn't have|to use a human tax-preparer

00:22:33:04,   00:22:34:07,   anymore for that task,

00:22:34:15,   00:22:36:22,   the software was|able to do it very effectively.

00:22:37:06,   00:22:39:07,   And this is part of a broader phenomenon

00:22:39:10,   00:22:43:15,   where we are able|to codify certain repetitive tasks,

00:22:44:05,   00:22:45:23,   put them into a digital form,

00:22:46:06,   00:22:47:17,   and then make copies of them.

00:22:47:24,   00:22:50:24,   Of course it already|happened with media and music

00:22:51:02,   00:22:54:01,   and now it's begging to happen|with more and more processes

00:22:54:01,   00:22:55:24,   and it's affecting many kinds of jobs.

 

 

 

 

RADIO HOST

00:23:05:18,   00:23:08:09,   Now take a look at this report based

00:23:08:09,   00:23:11:21,   on a conference by|MIT professor Andrew Mcafee.

00:23:13:11,   00:23:17:24,   He asked what he defined as|a ridiculously broad question,

00:23:19:01,   00:23:24:05,   which have been the most important|developments in human history?

00:23:25:22,   00:23:30:14,   It's a wonderful question to|ask and it starts and endless debate

00:23:30:14,   00:23:33:02,   because some people|are going to bring up

00:23:33:02,   00:23:36:07,   systems of philosophy|in both the west and the east.

00:23:36:21,   00:23:38:15,   And then some people will say:

00:23:38:15,   00:23:41:07,   "the founding of the|world's major religions",

00:23:41:11,   00:23:44:15,   "intelectual achievements|in disciplines like math"

00:23:44:20,   00:23:49:11,   or periods where there was a deep|flourishing of the arts and sciences.

00:23:49:14,   00:23:55:08,   And then some other folk would say:|"Empires, stories of conquest and war".

00:23:55:15,   00:24:00:02,   It's an endless debate and there's|no conclusive single answer to it.

00:24:01:12,   00:24:04:00,   Unless you look at the data.

00:24:04:17,   00:24:10:03,   So, if you look at the graph,|you'll come to some weird conclusions.

00:24:11:03,   00:24:13:01,   You'll conclude, actually,

00:24:13:22,   00:24:18:05,   that none of these things|have mattered very much.

00:24:18:11,   00:24:23:19,   There has been one story in|human history that really mattered,

00:24:25:07,   00:24:26:21,   a technology story,

00:24:27:23,   00:24:29:05,   the steam engine.

00:24:29:23,   00:24:31:14,   The industrial revolution

00:24:32:17,   00:24:37:12,   And this change came by infinitely|multiplying the power of our muscles,

00:24:37:19,   00:24:41:07,   overcoming the|limitation of our muscles.

00:24:42:08,   00:24:45:13,   Digital technologies have just been born

00:24:46:02,   00:24:48:14,   and what we are in the middle of now

00:24:49:02,   00:24:53:16,   is the process of overcoming|the limitations of our individual brains

00:24:54:02,   00:24:57:14,   and infinitely|multiplying our mental power.

00:24:58:15,   00:25:00:12,   And borrowing Mcafee's words,

00:25:01:04,   00:25:02:23,   we ain't seen nothing yet.

 

 

 

 

BRYNJOLFSSON

00:25:06:11,   00:25:07:20,   One thing to bare in mind

00:25:07:20,   00:25:10:20,   is that technology has always|been replacing some jobs

00:25:11:02,   00:25:13:04,   and has always been creating new jobs.

00:25:13:11,   00:25:16:12,   From agriculture and farming|to manufacturing...

00:25:16:19,   00:25:20:24,   And in the past, entrepreneurs|came up with new things for people to do

00:25:21:01,   00:25:21:22,   the data shows

00:25:21:24,   00:25:25:17,   that we simply aren't creating|new jobs as fast as we need to be

00:25:25:22,   00:25:28:21,   and that's why the employment|to population ratio is falling.

 

 

BAUMAN

00:25:29:00,   00:25:34:02,   It is cheaper, it is quicker,|it is faster, it is more reliable...

00:25:34:10,   00:25:39:03,   They don't go on strikes, you know,|they don't demand higher salaries...

00:25:40:12,   00:25:43:13,   they don't demand even|bed, bread and butter!

 

 

ATKINSON

00:25:43:24,   00:25:48:02,   Well I think technological change|is clearly a very important phenomenon

00:25:48:11,   00:25:52:05,   I would really like to|make a couple of points,

00:25:52:09,   00:25:56:02,   one is that is obviously|affects the demand for

00:25:56:10,   00:25:59:17,   workers who have|high levels of skill and education

00:25:59:19,   00:26:02:18,   and at the same time it also destroys

00:26:02:18,   00:26:07:13,   many of the jobs of people who|haven't got those advantages.

00:26:07:24,   00:26:10:10,   So it affects the distribution of wages,

00:26:10:18,   00:26:14:18,   but it's also affected the|balance between labour and capital,

00:26:14:18,   00:26:19:01,   the classical question of what|determines the distribution of income.

00:26:19:01,   00:26:20:09,   And I think that's the aspect

00:26:20:09,   00:26:23:18,   which perhaps hasn't received as|much attention as it ought to have done.

 

 

 

 

RADIO HOST

00:26:54:21,   00:26:58:01,   The political association|is always at its best

00:26:58:11,   00:27:01:24,   when it is formed by|citizens of regular fortune.

00:27:03:03,   00:27:05:15,   Well administrated states are those

00:27:05:15,   00:27:08:05,   in which the middle class is larger

00:27:08:05,   00:27:12:10,   and more respectable than|the other two classes combined.

 

 

BRYNJOLFSSON

00:27:28:12,   00:27:30:22,   One of the things we've seen in|the United States and other countries

00:27:31:05,   00:27:33:06,   is a shrinking middle class.

00:27:33:14,   00:27:35:13,   And this is true not just in America

00:27:35:13,   00:27:38:14,   but some great research|by my college David Autor at MIT

00:27:38:19,   00:27:39:22,   has shown that it's true

00:27:39:22,   00:27:42:21,   in almost every european country|and most developed countries.

 

 

GALEGATI

00:27:43:11,   00:27:49:10,   The problem is that the people|that were in the middle before

00:27:49:13,   00:27:52:05,   were manual workers|and office workers,

00:27:52:09,   00:27:55:13,   and these are the ones|that are replaced by machines,

00:27:55:16,   00:28:00:08,   The economic position|of those people is getting lower.

00:28:00:12,   00:28:05:11,   And what is happening|at the top is amazing.

00:28:05:14,   00:28:14:09,   1% of the population owns 20 or 30%|of the wealth in the United States.

 

 

RAVENTÓS

00:28:19:03,   00:28:25:04,   These have gotten so|much richer these last years...

00:28:25:06,   00:28:30:06,   I just got a Credit Suisse|report about wealth in the world.

00:28:30:08,   00:28:33:07,   It's spectacular how much|wealthier the wealthy are getting.

00:28:33:09,   00:28:35:04,   ¡In every country!

00:28:35:06,   00:28:41:15,   ¿And how come? Well,|economy does not work in outer space.

00:28:41:17,   00:28:44:13,   It's regulated by politics.

 

 

ATKINSON

00:28:44:18,   00:28:46:20,   Yes, I think inequality is

00:28:48:20,   00:28:52:23,   not only, I think it's importantly|a moral issue but it's also, as you say,

00:28:54:07,   00:28:56:12,   inequality has adverse consequences.

00:28:56:15,   00:28:57:19,   Which are...

00:28:58:23,   00:29:04:24,   I would say partly in terms|of macroeconomic consequences,

00:29:04:24,   00:29:07:22,   like for example|the sustainability of growth.

00:29:08:18,   00:29:12:21,   As the head of the|International Monetary Fund has said,

00:29:12:23,   00:29:15:02,   she just doesn't think|we can have sustained growth

00:29:15:02,   00:29:16:19,   with these present levels of inequality.

 

 

HANAUER

00:31:24:12,   00:31:27:03,   Prosperity, growth,|jobs are a consequence,

00:31:27:03,   00:31:29:01,   essentially, of a feedback loop

00:31:29:02,   00:31:31:20,   between customers,|the people who buy things

00:31:31:20,   00:31:34:10,   and businesses,|the people who make things.

00:31:34:23,   00:31:37:19,   And the more robust|that feedback loop is,

00:31:37:19,   00:31:39:20,   the better it is for everyone.

00:31:40:05,   00:31:44:23,   But when you concentrate income|and wealth in fewer and fewer hands,

00:31:45:08,   00:31:49:17,   you essentially break that feedback loop|and a bunch of terrible things happen

00:31:49:21,   00:31:54:21,   both to the civil society but also,|of course, to the economy.

00:31:56:10,   00:31:59:02,   I actually find it very uncomfortable

00:31:59:02,   00:32:02:14,   to live in a society|which is radically unequal,

00:32:02:18,   00:32:10:04,   I find it painful to be and walk|in a city filled with homeless people

00:32:10:10,   00:32:14:06,   and know that, you know,|I'm gonna ride around in my own jet,

00:32:14:08,   00:32:17:13,   I just... I'm made|uncomfortable by that.

00:32:20:02,   00:32:22:23,   There's a reason|I live in Seattle, Washington,

00:32:22:23,   00:32:25:18,   and that is that there's|more opportunity in Seattle

00:32:25:18,   00:32:27:18,   because people earn more money there.

00:32:28:04,   00:32:32:09,   And the more money they earn, the bigger|the opportunity there will be for me.

00:32:32:16,   00:32:36:22,   You know, the most successful|capitalist economies are the ones

00:32:37:04,   00:32:39:08,   where workers earn the most money

00:32:39:16,   00:32:42:02,   they obviously provide the biggest|opportunity for capitalists like me

00:32:42:02,   00:32:47:13,   but they also provide the best lives for|everyone who participates in them.

00:32:47:15,   00:32:52:13,   And so it makes no sense|to structurally impoverish most people

00:32:52:21,   00:32:57:10,   while concentrating wealth in|the hands of a tiny minority of people

00:32:57:12,   00:33:03:10,   and I think all capitalists have|a huge stake in making sure that

00:33:03:10,   00:33:07:00,   their customer base,|if you want to look at it that crassly,

00:33:07:00,   00:33:09:01,   is the most robust that it can be.

00:33:09:02,   00:33:11:13,   What do I care if I pay|a little bit more tax

00:33:11:13,   00:33:15:12,   or my profits are a little lower|if the customer base continues to grow?

00:33:15:13,   00:33:18:06,   It's just simple math,|it's just practical,

00:33:18:06,   00:33:22:14,   and I don't understand why other|people don't see it quite that way.

00:33:22:20,   00:33:23:15,   Seems very common sense.

 

 

 

 

RADIO HOST

00:33:59:02,   00:34:00:23,   Money wants money.

00:34:02:08,   00:34:06:13,   If you are poor now,|Emillianus, you will always be poor.

00:34:07:10,   00:34:11:05,   Riches are now given|to none but the rich.

00:34:11:20,   00:34:15:02,   Oh, the maliciousness|and misery of human riches

00:34:15:14,   00:34:18:07,   which nobody can poses entirely

00:34:18:10,   00:34:19:05,   and which,

00:34:19:05,   00:34:24:04,   if accumulated by just one man,|will make all the others poor.

 

 

 

 

BRYNJOLFSSON

00:34:32:15,   00:34:38:13,   We are now about 100 times richer|than our ancestors from 200 years ago

00:34:38:13,   00:34:42:09,   everybody's living standards raised,|the rich, the poor, the middle class,

00:34:42:09,   00:34:44:14,   all saw their living|standards grow higher

00:34:44:22,   00:34:47:12,   in Europe, America and Japan.

00:34:48:01,   00:34:50:17,   But, recently,|there's been a separation

00:34:50:23,   00:34:54:23,   where the technology has continued to|progress and the pie is getting bigger

00:34:54:23,   00:34:56:24,   but many people are not participating.

00:34:58:05,   00:35:01:08,   And this has been somewhat of|a puzzle or a paradox for many of us

00:35:01:12,   00:35:05:08,   but I think the resolution|of the paradox is to understand that

00:35:05:21,   00:35:08:20,   while technological|progress does grow the pie,

00:35:08:23,   00:35:10:17,   there's simply no economic law

00:35:10:17,   00:35:14:20,   that says that everybody will benefit|from that technological progress.

00:35:15:06,   00:35:17:02,   It's possible for some people,

00:35:17:23,   00:35:19:04,   to be made worse of,

00:35:19:04,   00:35:23:04,   it's even possible, in theory,|for a majority to be made worse of

00:35:23:08,   00:35:25:06,   while the overall pie grows.

 

 

 

 

MAZZUCATO

00:35:32:08,   00:35:33:17,   If you ask yourself

00:35:33:17,   00:35:37:23,   "what makes the Iphone a|smartphone and not a stupidphone?"

00:35:38:00,   00:35:39:04,   it's what you can do with it.

00:35:39:14,   00:35:42:01,   You can surf the internet,|that was government funded.

00:35:42:03,   00:35:44:12,   You can know where you are|in any part of the world,

00:35:44:12,   00:35:45:23,   GPS, that was government funded.

00:35:46:03,   00:35:48:18,   You can use touchscreen display,|government funded.

00:35:48:21,   00:35:51:14,   You can talk into it with Siri,|government funded.

00:35:56:12,   00:35:58:19,   And so what makes that phone smart

00:35:58:19,   00:36:02:22,   was this massive long patient finance|provided by governments

00:36:03:17,   00:36:05:10,   and because it's so cumulative,

00:36:05:17,   00:36:09:15,   innovation today is|dependent on innovation yesterday

00:36:09:15,   00:36:11:21,   and an innovation even before,

00:36:12:02,   00:36:14:21,   and so the real problem|is that by not admitting

00:36:15:02,   00:36:17:04,   this huge collective effort,

00:36:17:06,   00:36:17:24,   you know,

00:36:18:01,   00:36:19:22,   funded by the taxpayer if you want

00:36:20:05,   00:36:24:11,   we ended up socializing|the risk behind innovation

00:36:24:13,   00:36:26:20,   because innovation is very risky,|it's very uncertain,

00:36:26:22,   00:36:29:22,   that's why you have a|risk averse private sector not doing it,

00:36:29:24,   00:36:31:15,   but privatizing the rewards.

00:36:35:23,   00:36:37:24,   And that to me|is the real trick, there,

00:36:37:24,   00:36:42:03,   of why we have innovation and|inequality also going hand in hand.

 

 

LATOUCHE

00:36:50:14,   00:36:56:10,   An important part of production|does not actually come from labor.

00:36:57:04,   00:37:00:21,   If too little labor can|result in a remarkable production

00:37:00:23,   00:37:03:12,   that's because there is an heritage

00:37:03:14,   00:37:07:15,   from precedent generations,|from science, from previous efforts.

00:37:07:19,   00:37:09:19,   This way,

00:37:09:20,   00:37:16:07,   every citizen has a certain right|to a dividend of this social produce.

 

 

MAZZUCATO

00:37:16:23,   00:37:20:08,   Some economists would argue|that the return to government,

00:37:20:08,   00:37:21:12,   come through taxes.

00:37:21:19,   00:37:24:06,   But that's no longer true,|for various reasons.

00:37:24:08,   00:37:27:17,   Not only because of|the loopholes and tax evasion,

00:37:28:02,   00:37:32:19,   but also tax rates have been falling,|corporate income tax has been falling,

00:37:32:20,   00:37:38:20,   capitals gains tax fell by|50% at the end of the 1970's...

00:37:39:17,   00:37:41:02,   through the lobbying,

00:37:41:05,   00:37:43:17,   calling themselves the risk takers,|the innovators,

00:37:44:00,   00:37:46:12,   they ended up capturing|a huge amount of value

00:37:46:12,   00:37:48:14,   beyond what they put into the process.

 

 

MÚJICA

00:37:48:22,   00:37:53:09,   30 years ago we|discussed the "Tobin" tax

00:37:54:11,   00:37:58:15,   30 years and we still cannot apply it!

00:37:59:17,   00:38:02:21,   It doesn't make sense|that we cannot take money

00:38:02:21,   00:38:05:22,   from all the|super millionaires in the world.

00:38:06:13,   00:38:10:15,   I mean... It's ridiculous|to have this kind of things.

 

 

RADIO HOST

00:38:13:02,   00:38:17:13,   We tend to think that|things are not going too well.

00:38:18:08,   00:38:20:17,   But this is, actually, not true.

00:38:22:17,   00:38:25:11,   They are going much worse.

00:38:26:14,   00:38:28:21,   Take a look at this report based

00:38:28:21,   00:38:32:23,   on a 2005 study of the|Harvard Business School in Boston.

00:38:33:16,   00:38:37:02,   Let's reduce the total|wealth of the United States

00:38:37:02,   00:38:39:05,   to this symbolic stack of money

00:38:39:17,   00:38:43:11,   and then distribute it|amongst a hundred americans.

00:38:44:06,   00:38:49:01,   What we have here is the|country's wealth distributed equitably.

00:38:49:08,   00:38:52:01,   This is not a very realistic view,

00:38:52:05,   00:38:53:05,   one could say,

00:38:53:12,   00:38:56:05,   because it lacks the motivation to work.

00:38:57:07,   00:38:58:06,   Let's move on.

00:38:58:21,   00:39:00:03,   In the following graph,

00:39:00:03,   00:39:03:12,   we can see the ideal|distribution of wealth for the nation,

00:39:04:00,   00:39:07:23,   republicans and|democrats chose this curve,

00:39:08:12,   00:39:10:22,   9 out of 10 people said that

00:39:10:22,   00:39:15:20,   this was the ideal distribution|of wealth for the nation.

00:39:17:21,   00:39:20:15,   Here there is no lack of motivation

00:39:20:17,   00:39:25:18,   because the rich obtain|10 to 20 times more than the poor.

00:39:26:13,   00:39:31:09,   We have a very powerful middle class, a|smooth transition between wealth levels

00:39:31:12,   00:39:34:16,   and even the poorest are not that poor.

00:39:37:10,   00:39:38:19,   In the following,

00:39:38:19,   00:39:43:22,   we can see how people assume|the country's wealth is distributed.

00:39:44:10,   00:39:49:15,   Not so equitably,|but to many even this seems pretty good.

00:39:50:09,   00:39:56:12,   Yes, the poorest 20% or 30%|begin to suffer quite a bit

00:39:56:15,   00:39:59:03,   compared with the ideal society

00:39:59:08,   00:40:02:19,   and the middle class|is suffering more than before.

00:40:02:24,   00:40:07:09,   The rich and very rich earn|100 times more than the poor

00:40:07:11,   00:40:14:11,   and then 10 times more|than the still wealthy middle class.

00:40:15:02,   00:40:20:02,   But this is far from|being the real situation.

00:40:21:05,   00:40:25:00,   Here is the real distribution|of wealth in America.

00:40:27:16,   00:40:29:20,   The poorest americans get nothing!

00:40:30:15,   00:40:35:04,   And the middle class can hardly|be distinguished from the poor

00:40:35:09,   00:40:37:15,   Even many of the rich are worse of,

00:40:37:20,   00:40:41:15,   just the highest 10% are better of.

00:40:42:17,   00:40:45:00,   How much better of are they?

00:40:46:03,   00:40:54:20,   They are so much better of that from|2% to 5% go off the graph at this scale

00:40:55:13,   00:40:56:10,   and 1%...

00:40:57:10,   00:41:02:20,   their pile of money rises|10 times higher than we can show...

00:41:04:14,   00:41:12:21,   These are the famous one percenters|that we have heard so much talk about.

00:41:13:10,   00:41:17:24,   The one percenters own|40% of all the nation's wealth

00:41:18:16,   00:41:24:18,   while 80% own just the 7%.

00:41:27:01,   00:41:30:23,   This is the way things truly are.

 

 

BREGMAN

00:41:41:08,   00:41:43:11,   I think we're living in a time and age

00:41:43:11,   00:41:47:11,   in which our societies and our|economies are changing faster than ever.

00:41:47:16,   00:41:51:22,   And that means we need|to adjust, really in a social way,

00:41:52:10,   00:41:55:22,   our system of social security|was built for the 20th century

00:41:56:03,   00:41:57:21,   but we keep applying, you know,

00:41:57:21,   00:42:01:05,   the solutions of the|20th century to the problems of the 21st

00:42:01:06,   00:42:02:14,   so, we need something different.

 

 

BRYNJOLFSSON

00:42:02:22,   00:42:05:09,   We're increasingly facing|the prospect of a world

00:42:05:09,   00:42:08:01,   with a great deal of wealth|and less need for labour.

00:42:08:09,   00:42:09:23,   Some people see that as a bad thing.

00:42:10:06,   00:42:11:16,   I see it as a wonderful thing!

00:42:12:01,   00:42:14:22,   What we need to do is come|up with a new system in the future,

00:42:14:22,   00:42:17:08,   as technology becomes more pervasive,

00:42:17:10,   00:42:19:03,   for more people to share in it.

 

 

BAUMAN

00:42:19:20,   00:42:23:02,   We have to rethink even the foundational

00:42:24:20,   00:42:28:12,   assumptions on|which our way of live is built.

00:42:29:11,   00:42:32:23,   Choice is either those|people should die of hunger

00:42:33:08,   00:42:37:05,   or be transported|away on uninhabited islands

00:42:37:13,   00:42:45:24,   or the link between labour and|right to remain alive should be broken.

 

 

GALEGATI

00:42:46:21,   00:42:51:15,   As a long term solution,|I don't see another option

00:42:51:19,   00:42:55:07,   other than the redistribution of income,

00:42:55:10,   00:42:59:00,   or the introduction of a basic income.

00:43:01:10,   00:43:06:09,   And the sooner we see that,|the better for all of us.

 

 

RADIO HOST

00:43:43:18,   00:43:46:20,   All men, brother Gallio,|wish to live happily

00:43:47:02,   00:43:50:12,   but in the eagerness to discover|what makes live happy

00:43:50:18,   00:43:52:20,   they grope around for the light

00:43:52:23,   00:43:55:24,   So it is no easy to achieve|happiness in life.

00:43:56:07,   00:44:00:00,   we must, therefore,|decide what it is we seek

00:44:00:07,   00:44:03:00,   and find the roads to take us there.

00:44:03:06,   00:44:05:20,   Nothing, therefore, is more important

00:44:05:23,   00:44:10:14,   than we should not, like sheep,|follow the flock that has gone before us

00:44:10:21,   00:44:15:17,   traveling thus, the way that all go,|and not the way we ought to go.

 

 

 

 

BRYNJOLFSSON

00:44:50:12,   00:44:54:14,   As our income distribution|becomes more and more unequal,

00:44:54:17,   00:44:58:02,   it's natural to think of ways that|we can create more shared prosperity.

00:44:58:18,   00:45:02:05,   And, in the book, we talk about three|broad categories of things we can do,

00:45:02:07,   00:45:06:01,   we can invest more in education,|to get people who can contribute more,

00:45:06:07,   00:45:08:02,   we can invest more in entrepreneurship

00:45:08:02,   00:45:10:16,   so entrepreneurs can invent|new jobs for people to do

00:45:10:21,   00:45:13:18,   and the third thing we can|do is we can use government policy

00:45:13:20,   00:45:15:22,   to come up with a|new distribution of income

00:45:16:00,   00:45:19:09,   on the tax side and|also on the benefits side.

 

 

 

 

MAZZUCATO

00:45:19:12,   00:45:22:05,   This is something, I think,|that hasn't been talked about enough

00:45:22:07,   00:45:24:24,   because there are different ways in|which you can generate that, of course.

00:45:25:01,   00:45:27:22,   Both through the kinds of|investments that generate new jobs...

00:45:27:23,   00:45:31:00,   So, innovation led growth|rather than speculative growth.

00:45:31:07,   00:45:34:16,   But also, of course, through|different types of welfare programs that

00:45:34:22,   00:45:38:00,   allow everyone to have a basic income.

00:45:39:03,   00:45:42:09,   But alone, it is true,|that alone, over time,

00:45:42:10,   00:45:47:00,   just spending in R&D and human|capital without serious welfare programs

00:45:47:02,   00:45:49:12,   will not get rid of|the inequality problem.

 

 

 

 

ATKINSON

00:45:50:11,   00:45:56:23,   Yes, I've been looking for a new form,|essentially, of social security

00:45:57:11,   00:46:00:16,   partly, I think,|because the world has changed

00:46:00:16,   00:46:04:00,   since we designed|the system 100 or so years ago

00:46:04:09,   00:46:07:02,   and that we can't anymore rely

00:46:07:02,   00:46:12:14,   simply on people having a job|which guarantees enough income.

00:46:13:05,   00:46:15:16,   So the idea of a universal basic income

00:46:15:17,   00:46:18:12,   is one which I think|has quite a wide appeal.

 

 

 

 

RAVENTÓS

00:46:32:21,   00:46:36:13,   The Basic Income is|a universal reallocation of money

00:46:36:17,   00:46:40:08,   to absolutely everyone|in a specific geographical area.

 

 

BREGMAN

00:46:40:12,   00:46:45:04,   It's just a monthly allowance that's|enough to pay for your basic needs,

00:46:45:21,   00:46:47:21,   food, shelter, education...

00:46:47:22,   00:46:48:22,   That kind of thing.

00:46:48:24,   00:46:50:22,   Enough to really|make something of your life.

00:46:52:00,   00:46:53:12,   But it's really different

00:46:53:12,   00:46:56:20,   from the old system|of social security in two respects.

00:46:57:10,   00:47:01:13,   So, in the first place,|it's universal, so everyone gets it

00:47:01:20,   00:47:05:18,   wether you are rich or poor,|a billionaire or a beggar...

00:47:06:02,   00:47:07:08,   Everyone gets it.

 

 

RAVENTÓS

00:47:07:18,   00:47:15:06,   That's what makes it different from|the welfare programs we are used to.

00:47:15:10,   00:47:20:15,   You can't get your unemployment benefit|if you are employed.

00:47:20:19,   00:47:23:11,   So there can be times in your life

00:47:23:14,   00:47:27:14,   when you might|ask yourself the question:

00:47:27:18,   00:47:32:21,   What is better for me?|The job or the unemployment benefit?

00:47:33:01,   00:47:34:07,   That's a problem.

00:47:34:11,   00:47:36:16,   That does not happen|with the Basic Income.

00:47:36:20,   00:47:39:12,   You get it unconditionally.

 

 

BREGMAN

00:47:41:21,   00:47:43:07,   You get it no matter what.

00:47:43:23,   00:47:46:12,   No one is going to tell|you what you have to do for it,

00:47:46:12,   00:47:48:02,   what you have to do with it...

00:47:48:03,   00:47:50:21,   You know,|you can just decide for yourself.

00:47:51:03,   00:47:54:12,   So no one can say that you or you

00:47:54:19,   00:47:56:01,   doesn't deserve it.

00:47:56:05,   00:47:57:22,   It's a right,

00:47:57:22,   00:48:00:02,   it's not a favor, it's a right|as a citizen of your country.

00:48:00:09,   00:48:02:07,   The only thing that you need is...

00:48:02:08,   00:48:05:17,   Well, a heart beat, you need to be alive|and then you get it.

 

 

 

 

RAVENTÓS

00:48:06:22,   00:48:11:00,   Obviously, if everyone gets it,|some people would argue:

00:48:11:05,   00:48:14:06,   "So the wealthy get it too?|They don't need it.

00:48:14:10,   00:48:17:01,   Does Bill Gates need it?"

00:48:17:06,   00:48:21:21,   It actually requires major|fiscal policy reforms.

00:48:22:00,   00:48:26:18,   It's a big redistribution of income|from the wealthiest to the rest.

00:48:26:22,   00:48:30:06,   The Basic Income|is formally given to everyone.

00:48:30:10,   00:48:31:22,   But not everyone wins.

 

 

MAZZUCATO

00:48:34:01,   00:48:36:17,   Some people are worried that|if taxes are too high, for example,

00:48:36:17,   00:48:37:23,   you'll have little investment.

00:48:38:01,   00:48:41:06,   But there's no empirical|evidence to suggest that,

00:48:41:08,   00:48:45:18,   under Eisenhower,|the top marginal rate was close to 90%

00:48:46:00,   00:48:50:00,   and you had higher levels|of investments than we have today.

00:48:50:04,   00:48:54:11,   Warren Buffet is famous for saying|that even when capital gains was 40%

00:48:54:13,   00:48:56:14,   that it never affected his investments

00:48:56:18,   00:48:57:05,   why?

00:48:57:07,   00:48:59:12,   Because what drives|private sector investment

00:48:59:14,   00:49:03:17,   is the perception of where those future|opportunities are regardless of tax.

 

 

BREGMAN

00:49:05:04,   00:49:08:08,   But I think this new idea|is leftist in some ways

00:49:08:08,   00:49:11:14,   because, well,|we can actually eradicate poverty...

00:49:11:23,   00:49:15:24,   but for people who are right wing,|it might be interesting as well because,

00:49:16:01,   00:49:18:20,   well, you won't have|a big government anymore

00:49:18:20,   00:49:22:23,   that says you need to do this|or you need to do that with you live.

00:49:23:01,   00:49:27:11,   One philosopher, Philippe van Parijs,|he's a Belgian philosopher, he said that

00:49:27:13,   00:49:32:03,   the basic income is, actually,|the capitalist road to communism.

00:49:32:05,   00:49:34:16,   So I think that brilliantly sums it up.

 

 

 

 

HANAUER

00:49:36:09,   00:49:39:22,   The issue of a basic income|is a very interesting idea

00:49:40:02,   00:49:45:19,   and I will admit that I have not|come to a conclusion myself

00:49:45:22,   00:49:48:20,   about wether it's a great idea or not.

00:49:49:00,   00:49:49:14,   You know,

00:49:49:23,   00:49:52:24,   I think the only way to answer|that question, honestly,

00:49:52:24,   00:49:54:06,   is not in the abstract,

00:49:54:12,   00:49:57:05,   it's to try it somewhere|and see what happens.

00:49:57:09,   00:49:58:21,   And I would be emphatically...

00:49:59:01,   00:50:01:11,   emphatically supportive

00:50:01:17,   00:50:03:14,   of an experiment somewhere to see...

00:50:03:14,   00:50:07:08,   just to see what'd happen, what|kind of affect it'd had on the society.

 

 

BREGMAN

00:50:08:16,   00:50:14:06,   Well, a lot of people tell me that the|basic income is never going to happen

00:50:14:09,   00:50:16:11,   That's just some utopian fantasy

00:50:16:22,   00:50:19:21,   but I like to remind them that

00:50:20:03,   00:50:23:18,   there are a lot of utopian fantasies|that actually have come true

00:50:24:04,   00:50:28:04,   Just think of Democracy,|or the end of slavery, you know...

00:50:28:12,   00:50:31:10,   People back in the 18th Century thought|that was a stupid idea

00:50:31:12,   00:50:33:00,   But here we are!

00:50:33:04,   00:50:36:21,   Utopias have a tendency of coming true.|It happens all the time.

00:50:37:06,   00:50:40:03,   You just need a little patience,|and a little lot of collective ambition

00:50:40:06,   00:50:41:20,   to make it come true.

00:50:43:09,   00:50:45:15,   I think my generation|is much more pragmatic,

00:50:46:05,   00:50:49:01,   when I tell young|people about the basic income,

00:50:49:02,   00:50:50:13,   they do not ask me:

00:50:52:00,   00:50:52:22,   You know...

00:50:52:23,   00:50:55:00,   "What's the|philosophical idea behind it?",

00:50:55:01,   00:50:55:21,   they ask me:

00:50:56:05,   00:50:57:03,   "Does it work?"

00:50:57:05,   00:50:57:21,   You know?

00:50:57:21,   00:50:59:17,   They are interested in experimenting.

00:51:01:06,   00:51:02:03,   And the answer is:

00:51:02:04,   00:51:05:10,   "Well, it probably works.|But let's experiment some more.".

 

 

 

 

BAUMAN

00:51:36:00,   00:51:37:19,   We are already consuming

00:51:38:06,   00:51:39:20,   one and a half planets.

00:51:40:00,   00:51:43:04,   which means that we consume, annually,

00:51:43:04,   00:51:51:07,   50% more than the planet is able|to deliver without being devastated.

 

 

 

 

LATOUCHE

00:51:55:02,   00:51:57:05,   Production is increasing.

00:51:57:09,   00:51:59:22,   The destruction of nature is increasing.

00:52:00:01,   00:52:04:00,   But it is the production|of useless things, poor quality items...

00:52:04:13,   00:52:06:12,   Junk food...

00:52:07:14,   00:52:11:01,   The system is in a complete nonsense

 

 

 

 

MÚJICA

00:52:15:03,   00:52:20:20,   We know what carbon dioxide emissions|do, and we keep devising cars!

00:52:20:22,   00:52:24:11,   And we don't care because otherwise|everything would paralyze.

00:52:30:00,   00:52:32:14,   I don't know...|My biggest questioning is this:

00:52:32:18,   00:52:34:22,   Either we acknowledge that

00:52:34:22,   00:52:40:03,   we are reaching human biological limits,|in organization terms,

00:52:40:22,   00:52:46:07,   or a cataclysm will have to happen,|as it has happened before,

00:52:46:07,   00:52:50:10,   and we'll have to|start over from the disaster.

00:52:51:02,   00:52:53:02,   This is my question.

 

 

 

 

BAUMAN

00:52:58:10,   00:53:01:00,   Prospects are, in 30 years time,

00:53:01:07,   00:53:03:21,   if everything goes as it goes now,

00:53:04:00,   00:53:05:23,   we will need 4 planets!

00:53:06:12,   00:53:08:03,   To satisfy our needs.

00:53:14:15,   00:53:15:23,   But where to find them?

00:53:16:21,   00:53:19:13,   Very unlikely that|in 30 years we find them

 

 

 

 

GALEGATI

00:53:24:00,   00:53:29:14,   All mankind can't|live as we lived until now.

00:53:29:23,   00:53:32:10,   A new model has to be invented.

00:53:32:18,   00:53:38:00,   It's like putting a|hamster on his wheel.

00:53:39:10,   00:53:43:23,   Poor thing runs and runs|but never reaches anywhere.

00:53:44:02,   00:53:47:15,   We have to take the|hamster and get him out of there.

00:53:48:00,   00:53:51:02,   It's useless having|him turning the wheel

00:53:51:14,   00:53:56:18,   Moving the wheel to|get the economy moving.

 

 

 

 

RADIO HOST

00:54:00:07,   00:54:02:03,   This story begins

00:54:03:23,   00:54:07:23,   in 1944 on the small|desert island of Saint Matthew

00:54:08:08,   00:54:11:11,   in the cold Bering Sea|at the end of world war II.

00:54:12:21,   00:54:15:24,   Due to a matter of military logistics,

00:54:15:24,   00:54:20:02,   the United States decided|to create a radio broadcaster.

00:54:21:03,   00:54:23:03,   A small contingent disembarked

00:54:23:06,   00:54:26:24,   with the materials and|lots of food for the stay.

00:54:27:17,   00:54:29:18,   In case they ran out of food,

00:54:29:19,   00:54:33:18,   they also took 29 reindeer,

00:54:34:09,   00:54:36:06,   (21 does and 8 bucks)

00:54:36:06,   00:54:38:21,   which they let go free on the island.

00:54:39:15,   00:54:43:02,   The next year, when the war was over,

00:54:43:07,   00:54:47:05,   the soldiers departed|and the reindeer were left alone.

00:54:47:19,   00:54:50:06,   The island was abandoned for 6 years,

00:54:50:08,   00:54:53:09,   until some scientist visited it.

00:54:55:00,   00:54:57:00,   They were amazed

00:54:57:00,   00:55:03:13,   that reindeer population|had grown to 1,351 members.

00:55:04:17,   00:55:08:10,   They decided to study|the phenomenon and left.

00:55:09:05,   00:55:11:08,   They returned 5 years later.

00:55:11:17,   00:55:15:10,   The show was indescribable!

00:55:15:22,   00:55:18:19,   The island was packed with reindeer.

00:55:19:08,   00:55:24:03,   They counted them and there were 6,114.

00:55:24:19,   00:55:28:16,   So, they decided|to return 3 years later.

00:55:29:21,   00:55:31:17,   Once that time had passed,

00:55:32:03,   00:55:35:13,   they returned and were astonished

00:55:35:20,   00:55:40:02,   to find a population of just...

00:55:41:07,   00:55:43:09,   42 reindeer!

00:55:44:22,   00:55:48:21,   (41 does and 1 sterile buck).

00:55:49:12,   00:55:51:06,   This meant extinction,

00:55:51:14,   00:55:52:17,   they concluded.

00:55:53:22,   00:55:57:24,   The overpopulation by the reindeer|did away with all the plants,

00:55:58:11,   00:55:59:21,   with no plants at all,

00:56:00:12,   00:56:02:20,   the reindeer were finished.

00:56:03:09,   00:56:04:21,   That is what you call

00:56:05:05,   00:56:07:17,   "dying of success".

 

 

 

 

RAVENTÓS

00:56:12:15,   00:56:14:14,   Distribution of wealth,

00:56:14:16,   00:56:17:22,   and redistribution of jobs,|all kind of jobs,

00:56:17:24,   00:56:20:03,   not only remunerated ones,

00:56:20:05,   00:56:25:17,   Is an intelligent and rational way|to adapt to our planet limits.

00:56:30:03,   00:56:33:11,   Keynes predicted how|the world would be, economically,

00:56:33:15,   00:56:36:05,   a century later, 16 years from now.

00:56:37:08,   00:56:39:16,   In terms of economic growth,

00:56:39:20,   00:56:42:10,   differences between|rich and poor countries,

00:56:42:13,   00:56:45:09,   how much productivity would increase...

00:56:45:12,   00:56:47:04,   He was very accurate.

00:56:47:08,   00:56:49:10,   Except for one big mistake.

00:56:49:13,   00:56:53:18,   And that's when he assumed that|the vast majority of the population,

00:56:53:23,   00:56:56:23,   in the year 2030,|would work 15 hours a week.

 

 

 

 

LATOUCHE

00:56:57:13,   00:57:00:04,   Work less so everybody works.

00:57:00:06,   00:57:03:23,   That was the proposition|of Guy Aznar in the '80s.

00:57:04:00,   00:57:06:09,   And that's common sense.

00:57:06:11,   00:57:11:17,   Because millions are working|like crazy for 15 hours a day

00:57:11:19,   00:57:15:24,   and millions are not working but|would love to.

00:57:16:03,   00:57:17:18,   So job sharing.

 

 

 

 

RAVENTÓS

00:57:17:20,   00:57:20:21,   Keynes, who was obviously|an enlightened person,

00:57:21:00,   00:57:25:19,   also took for granted the fact|that people work to live,

00:57:25:21,   00:57:27:14,   they don't live to work.

 

 

 

 

ATKINSON

00:57:27:17,   00:57:28:12,   One needs to bare in mind,

00:57:28:12,   00:57:29:00,   I think,

00:57:29:03,   00:57:30:21,   that the technological change we've seen

00:57:30:23,   00:57:33:08,   is, of course, largely manmade.

00:57:33:09,   00:57:36:00,   It's not somehow|arrived from otter space!

00:57:36:01,   00:57:37:21,   I mean,|we've developed these technologies

00:57:38:08,   00:57:39:09,   and that means, of course,

00:57:39:09,   00:57:41:13,   that we can influence|the directions in which they go

00:57:41:16,   00:57:45:02,   what kind of technological developments|we want to see in the future

00:57:45:02,   00:57:46:12,   and how are they being used

00:57:47:11,   00:57:49:11,   I mean, I do a job which I enjoy doing,

00:57:49:11,   00:57:52:05,   and I think that may be|one of the changes that happen

00:57:52:19,   00:57:57:24,   that many people move from|doing routine and hard physical work

00:57:58:12,   00:58:02:12,   to doing jobs which are much|more rewarding in many senses

00:58:03:01,   00:58:06:24,   I think simply the distinction between|leisure and work isn't such a clear one

 

 

 

 

BRYNJOLFSSON

00:58:07:11,   00:58:09:12,   Today, there are|people working fewer hours

00:58:09:12,   00:58:11:06,   but in many of them it's involuntary.

00:58:11:17,   00:58:13:00,   Involuntary unemployment

00:58:13:19,   00:58:16:02,   A better way would be when people

00:58:16:02,   00:58:19:19,   voluntarily took more vacation|and had enough wealth

00:58:20:12,   00:58:22:09,   that they didn't have|to work as many hours

00:58:22:23,   00:58:26:03,   Andrew McAfee and I call|this vision a "Digital Athens"

00:58:26:16,   00:58:30:01,   In comparison of the golden|age of Periclean Athens.

00:58:30:09,   00:58:32:13,   And they were able to do|that because, well,

00:58:32:13,   00:58:35:01,   they had human slaves|that provided the basic needs

00:58:35:16,   00:58:39:21,   In the future, we can have machines|and robots, that provide our basic needs

00:58:40:10,   00:58:43:15,   And all of us can|be like those athenians

00:58:44:03,   00:58:49:02,   Who were able to spend their time on|the arts, and creativity and philosophy.

 

 

RAVENTÓS

00:58:49:11,   00:58:55:11,   If fulfilling our material needs|took only a small part of our lives

00:58:55:15,   00:58:58:13,   and we could dedicate|the other part of our lives

00:58:58:17,   00:59:00:18,   to what we really wanted to do...

00:59:00:22,   00:59:02:24,   I don't know if that is happiness,

00:59:03:03,   00:59:06:00,   but I have no doubt that|it is close to it.

 

 

 

 

MÚJICA

00:59:26:03,   00:59:29:14,   We can exploit the leisure value!

00:59:29:16,   00:59:37:03,   To be clear, who has said that|we came to develop ourselves?

00:59:37:10,   00:59:41:18,   We came to life to be|as happy as we can.

00:59:41:18,   00:59:44:08,   Because life goes away...

00:59:44:24,   00:59:49:22,   And to be happy you need freedom.|And you need time to enjoy your freedom.

00:59:50:15,   00:59:53:09,   I mean, free time because I am free.

00:59:53:24,   00:59:57:13,   This piece of my life that I don't waste

00:59:57:13,   01:00:02:08,   on having financial resources|or paying my consumption

01:00:03:13,   01:00:09:01,   I am free when I live my life the way|I want without harming the others.

 

 

 

 

 

NIGERIA

01:00:25:21,   01:00:28:02,   In this world you would|say we will not be working

01:00:28:15,   01:00:31:08,   "We will not be working, machines|will be doing everything for us"

01:00:31:24,   01:00:36:02,   I'm sorry but we will have|a lot of obese... obesity

01:00:36:09,   01:00:42:04,   People would be sitting down..|Just getting fat every day

 

 

RUSSIA

01:00:49:23,   01:00:53:15,   I'm already happy|with two days off per week.

01:00:53:19,   01:00:59:17,   When I'm off on Mondays,|I feel bad because I'm not working.

 

 

SPAIN

01:01:01:03,   01:01:03:12,   For example, I am currently unemployed,

01:01:03:16,   01:01:06:07,   and to be honest,|I am living like a king.

01:01:06:12,   01:01:09:04,   But what about|the dignifying effects...?

01:01:09:08,   01:01:13:01,   What is more dignifying?|Working or doing your hobby?

 

 

NIGERIA

01:01:15:04,   01:01:18:14,   We cannot stay at home|just sleeping without doing anything

01:01:18:24,   01:01:21:17,   We also have to add value to our life

01:01:21:21,   01:01:23:21,   Because this is how we are all,|the human beings

 

 

PAKISTAN

01:01:26:03,   01:01:31:10,   If you are at home,|no jobs, doing nothing...

01:01:31:12,   01:01:34:15,   Naturally, I go crazy!

 

 

SOUTH AMERICA

01:01:41:20,   01:01:45:24,   You start to think: "No!|What would I do without working?"

 

 

SPAIN

01:02:03:21,   01:02:06:09,   After a month I'd think:

01:02:06:18,   01:02:08:22,   "With so many problems out there,

01:02:09:01,   01:02:11:07,   why are you sitting here like a fool?"

01:02:11:11,   01:02:14:01,   I'd still need to do something.

01:02:14:06,   01:02:18:01,   We'll look for other things to do.

01:02:18:06,   01:02:20:18,   Good things, very good things...

01:02:20:22,   01:02:27:22,   Look, just taking care of nature,|not throwing trash on the floor.

01:02:28:01,   01:02:30:12,   And if there is any, picking it up...

01:02:30:15,   01:02:33:15,   Yes, but that|would already be working...

 

 

 

 

MÚJICA

01:02:35:00,   01:02:40:01,   Then... This world where|people have to work fewer hours...

01:02:40:01,   01:02:41:15,   That's fine by me!

01:02:42:16,   01:02:46:20,   But now, this requires education.

01:02:47:02,   01:02:49:07,   Not just knowledge but education.

01:02:49:07,   01:02:52:23,   And if culture doesn't change|nothing else will change.

01:02:53:14,   01:02:58:08,   I'll tell you something. A material|change is easier than cultural change.

01:02:59:06,   01:03:02:05,   And my generation couldn't see that.

01:03:02:05,   01:03:07:19,   We innocently thought that by|changing production and distribution,

01:03:07:23,   01:03:12:11,   society would change.|But now you conclude that it doesn't.

 

 

 

 

LATOUCHE

01:03:20:21,   01:03:23:04,   We all can live in a better way.

01:03:23:04,   01:03:26:14,   We have the means|to make everyone live better.

01:03:26:19,   01:03:34:14,   This implies breaking with our routine,|with how we are used to live now.

01:03:34:20,   01:03:42:09,   Nobody has either|the courage or the interest on changing

01:03:42:11,   01:03:49:00,   Even the unemployed. They are not OK...

01:03:49:00,   01:03:52:21,   But if the system crashes|tomorrow they will be even worse.

01:03:53:18,   01:03:57:09,   We are exactly in the frog's situation.

01:03:57:14,   01:04:02:01,   If we put them right away to boiling|water they'll jump off...

01:04:02:03,   01:04:04:05,   If we put them in warm water|they are OK.

01:04:04:06,   01:04:08:18,   But if water gets hotter slowly,|frogs think they are even better

01:04:08:20,   01:04:12:13,   At the end it's too hot|and it's become dangerous

01:04:12:15,   01:04:15:06,   And then they don't have|the courage to get off

01:04:15:06,   01:04:17:17,   and they are cooked|without any resistance.

01:04:17:20,   01:04:26:10,   We are 7 billions of little frogs|in a marmite which is about to boil.

 

 

 

 

 

BAUMAN

01:04:35:00,   01:04:41:07,   I don't have a fully fletched theory of|how the better world should be organized

01:04:42:01,   01:04:44:03,   Unfortunately I've lived very long

01:04:44:03,   01:04:46:24,   and therefore I|went through many frustrations

01:04:47:08,   01:04:52:08,   I look backwards, you know...|It very much looks like

01:04:52:20,   01:04:55:00,   the Graveyard of Hopes

01:04:56:09,   01:04:58:16,   Hopes came one after another

01:04:58:16,   01:05:03:20,   and when they were put in|practice they didn't work as expected

01:05:05:18,   01:05:07:20,   So it's a very risky question

01:05:08:04,   01:05:11:05,   The question today is not so much

01:05:11:17,   01:05:12:22,   How to do it?

01:05:13:11,   01:05:14:23,   The question today is

01:05:15:04,   01:05:16:23,   Who is going to do it?

01:05:17:12,   01:05:18:18,   That is the problem.

 

 

 

 

MÚJICA

01:05:33:11,   01:05:37:02,   The cause is the model|of civilization that we've built,

01:05:37:06,   01:05:41:12,   and what we have to rethink|is the way we live.

01:05:41:16,   01:05:44:16,   My working comrades,

01:05:44:21,   01:05:48:05,   fought very hard|for the 8 hour working day.

01:05:48:08,   01:05:50:22,   And now|they're achieving the 6 hour day.

01:05:54:04,   01:05:56:22,   But whoever works 6 hours has two jobs,

01:05:57:01,   01:05:59:04,   so he now works more than before.

01:05:59:07,   01:06:02:15,   Why? Because he has|a lot of repayments to make.

01:06:02:20,   01:06:05:23,   The motorcycle he bought,|the car he bought...

01:06:06:02,   01:06:09:08,   So he keeps up his repayments...

01:06:09:12,   01:06:12:01,   and suddenly, he's old, like me,

01:06:12:05,   01:06:15:22,   and life has passed him by.|And then you have to ask yourself:

01:06:17:00,   01:06:20:11,   "Is this the destiny of human life?"