TC

Dialogue

00.00.00

Captions: g Documentaries

In partnership with the Bertha Foundation

00:00:10

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

That image was quite controversial to a lot of people, some people saw it as irresponsible, some people saw it as dangerous, threatening, whereas other people and I think including you saw it as a symbol of something very different, what was it to you?

00:00:27

MIKE

Powerful. Protecting. That is my freedom.

00:00:37

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

But the people who criticise you, what do they see?

00:00:43

MIKE

A right-wing lunatic?

00:00:47

NARRATOR (ZED NELSON)

Eighteen years ago I travelled across the United States exploring America's deadly love affair with the gun. I witnessed the grim results of these weapons, in hospital emergency rooms, morgues, and the confused aftermaths of mass shooting sprees. After each new massacre, the newspaper headlines were always the same: why did it happen here?

00:01:13

Since my book was published in the year 2000, more than half a million American’s have been killed by firearms in the USA. Five hundred and twenty seven thousand people dead and many more injured. I decided to return to the subject to track down each gun owner who I'd met and photographed those years ago to understand why, despite this death toll, there is such fierce resistance to even moderate gun control laws in the USA.

00:01:48

TITLE: GUN NATION

00:01:55

KAITLIN

His finger wasn’t even on the trigger, that's not what the picture is about, he's not trying to harm me, he's trying to protect me.

00:02:07

MIKE

I'm looking out for myself, my family, my neighbours.

00:02:43

Zen - relaxing.

00:03:05

VICKY SYKES

The thought that some people would want to take our guns away, to me is so ludicrous, ... because the bad guys, the thugs, the murderers, the rapists are always going to have guns and all you would be doing would be to take them away from the good guys, from us, the law-abiding citizens.

00:03:20

People in this country huddle in their houses and throw the deadbolts. But I will not succumb to the scum that is out there.

00:03:30

We were at our church last Sunday and our Sunday school teacher, Mike, asked the class how many people had gun permits, and I would say over two thirds of the members raised their hands.

00:03:52

This is a .38 Taurus. And it's a five-cylinder revolver, it's a concealed hammer, and it is concealed so that way it doesn’t get tangled or stuck on anything when you try to pull it out of your pocket or your purse.

00:04:12

If a bad guy tried to get to one of my family members he would have better luck with a butter knife against a grizzly bear than hurting one of my babies.

00:04:24

The armadillo or something's digging, look, we've got a big hole.

00:04:29

One morning come down the driveway, straight across the street, and there walking right in front of me is the armadillo. So I think, here's my chance, I've got babies, this armadillo carries leprosy, I've got to take this thing out. So I rev up my car [makes revving noises] and I floor-board it, hit the armadillo and it's like bang whack wop bang boom…when they get scared they jump straight up and they curl into a ball so all that wop bam boom was his shell rolling around underneath my car, but he was fine. (05:10)

00:05:10

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

I've never heard armadillos carrying leprosy, surely not.

00:05:14

VICKY SYKES

They can, yes, you look it up. You Google it. With my babies around I'm not going to take that chance.

00:05:27

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

What percentage of people have guns here then, would you say?

00:05:31

MR. SYKES (husband of Vicky Sykes)

In this neighbourhood? Oh, I would venture to guess everybody in this neighbourhood. I doubt anybody does not have a gun.

00:05:38

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

And do you think that having guns is a great deterrent to people coming into a neighbourhood...

00:05:43

MR. SYKES

Oh, absolutely. I can promise you that's the reason they're not coming in here. Stay away from me, and stay away from my home and we won’t have that problem…

00:05:58

MICHAEL MACK (wearing red shirt) 

Well, this is one of my favourite things to do. Quoting myself. With a bible in one hand and a gun in the other, we can make this country one nation under God, once again. In the name of the founding fathers of this great country, don't you ever acquiesce, don't ever turn your weapons of war and safety, don't ever turn those over to your government.

00:06:26

It is the great equaliser. If two people have a gun they're equal. Or whoever has the gun they are supreme.

00:06:36

Every time they pass another gun control law, they promise us safety. Do you know who did the same thing? Adolf Hitler.

00:06:45

Now, there's already 350 million guns in America. What are you going to do? Are you going to go confiscate them all? Are you going to make it more difficult fort criminals get them? They already have them! They can get them faster than you can.

00:06:59

The problem with crime in America is recidivism - the repeat offender. If you want to go after criminals who misuse guns, the first time you arrest them, get them, go after them, keep them. Second - make sure that the law-abiding citizen is ready, capable, and prepared to shoot back.

00:07:24

You know, my model comes right from the movie Cinderella - last year it was my favourite movie, really - the motto in Cinderella was, "have courage and be kind".

00:07:46

INSEEN MAN (SPEAKING IN BACKGROUND)

You got it. You got it. (07:49)

00:07:52

MICHAEL MACK (now wearing blue shirt) 

I want my daughters armed, I want my wife armed, I want my sons armed, and I want them to be able to defend their families. We've never hurt anybody and we don't want to. But at the same time we're not going to just make ourselves an easy target for those who would rape, rob, and plunder. No, no way. (08:12)

00:08:26

MEL BERNSTEIN

I’ve got six machine guns in the house, 10,000 rounds of ammunition in the closet. With the licence I have I could get on the phone today and I could order a hundred machine guns, and they're here in two weeks. I could get anything, you know, I have a tank… There's no end, you know.

00:08:43

The two hot guns, that's what I sell: the AK47s and the AR15, and I got everybody beat in town with the prices because I buy so many of them.

00:08:50

The news people come here and they always blame the gun, you know, they ask me, you know, when that happened, why do you sell guns that kill people? (08:58)

00:08:59

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

And what do you tell them?

00:09:00

MEL BERNSTEIN

What do I tell them? I said, all these guns were on the wall last night, and I walked in this morning and nobody was dead. You know it's stupid, you know, the gun doesn’t kill the people, the people kill the people and they just use the gun to kill the people. You know, they could use a fork, a knife, a hammer, a screwdriver… you know, why keep blaming it on the gun? (09:17)

00:09:18

MEL BERNSTEIN (SERVING CUSTOMERS AT COUNTER)

OK, just give me, just give me forty dollars…

00:09:20

00:09:22

MAN IN GREY T-SHIRT SERVING FAMILY AT COUNTER

…This one wont lock it open...

UNSEEN MAN (customer)

…shall I just keep the safety-catch on?

00:09:28

MAN IN BLACK T-SHIRT (handing gun to boy)

Here, you carry that. A-a-a-a-a, up! There you go. There you go… (09:34)

00:09:53

WOMAN IN PINK T-SHIRT

It's my birthday and I got a gun for my birthday, so I'm going to shoot it for the first time here today. (10:00)

00:10:41

POLICE CHIEF MICHAEL RALLINGS

We've seen just about everything; M16 assault rifles, AR15 semi-autos, hunting rifles with home-made silencers. These guns could have been used by anyone, they could have been used in robberies, domestics, and also homicides. Yeah that was 19 years ago, and  those words still reign true. (11:02)

00:11:04

Since the time, the laws in the state of Tennessee have changed substantially. You're allowed to carry guns in parks, guns in bars, guns in your car…so from a police chief's perspective I would definitely say that I would probably prefer if we did not have guns in bars.

00:11:50

SARAH READ

I got a .410 shotgun from Santa Claus last year. Right now our best-selling rifle is the Smith and Wesson. It's just, you know, a fun gun to shoot. People just go to the range and go shoot them, have fun. (12:14)

00:12:15

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

It is s hunting rifle as well?

00:12:17

SARAH READ

Yes, it can be a hunting rifle.

00:12:20

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

It doesn’t really seem fair on the animal.

00:12:22

SARAH READ

No. it doesn’t. You know, poor Bambi and all that… (02:29)

00:12:41

CHILD (OFF CAMERA)

Mummy, look! They’re singing…(02:47)

00:13:18

ADAM (GUN SALESMAN)

This pistol right here, the Glock semi-automatic pistol, is one of the biggest, biggest movie guns ever. I get kids out here that think they know what they're doing because they saw it in a movie, they're dangerous, we have to go out there and stop them and actually educate them on how to handle a firearm immediately. (13:38)

00:13:38

OK, I've got one of our most popular self-defence rounds here, it is a 124 grain, nine-millimetre jacketed hollow-point. It expands rapidly hitting organic material, such as your flesh. (13:54)

00:13:54

A couple of Mausers, and we also have an AR15, which is a huge seller, it really is, this is an extremely accurate weapon at very long ranges. (14:07)

00:14:07

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

But I mean, someone wouldn't buy that for home protection, would they?

00:14:10

ADAM

Oh, most definitely. I have one by my bed for home protection. My wife actually has a Benelli M4 by her bed, which is a semiautomatic shotgun. (04:19)

00:14:20

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

But what does it do, having that next to your bed, what does that do to your mindset? Does it not make you feel constantly vigilant and prepared?

00:14:30

ADAM

Oh, not at all, I mean, definitely prepared, all the way, but also I have a family that I love and care about very much. (14:36)

00:14:39

If you do watch the news, you see it all the time, home invasion here, home invasion there, highway shooting… I mean, it's pretty much, it can be like the wild west out here. (14:49)

00:15:00

DR. JERRY FRANCISCO (IN YELLOW SHIRT)

Most shootings take place in domestic situations. A sizeable number of people who kill other people are so-called ‘law-abiding citizens’. The law-biding citizen produces a lot of the fatalities - by mistake, in anger, or by accident. (05:18)

00:15:19

Several years ago, there was a surgeon here in Memphis who did a study of murders in two different urban areas. Seeing if the presence or absence of guns in a home was a trigger or a protection from a murder, and his conclusion was that the presence of the gun was more likely to cause a murder or death by gun than the absence of a gun in a home. (15:47)

00:16:01

TOM MAUSER

The protest held against the NRA convention took place ten days after Columbine. What happened at Columbine on April 20^th 1999 was that two young men who were intent on killing as many students as they could, they opened fire on students outside, and then when confronted with a police presence they went inside the school and began shooting there, went into the library, and that's where they killed and injured the most students and that's, that's where my son was. (06:38)

00:16.40

It went worse as the day went on. No word from him… being asked by the police if we could provide a description of him and what he was wearing… at one point asking for dental records, and being told at one point that there was one last school bus bringing students back from Columbine. (17:04)

00:17:06

When you're waiting for 45 minutes for a bus that should have only taken a couple of minutes, I then began to realise that there was no last school bus. (17:16)

00:17:32

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

How old was Daniel when he died?

00:17:35

TOM MAUSER

Fifteen.

00:18:06

LISA BOSHARD

Seventeen years ago when we last met I think it ended in tears for me, because I realised again what I would do if they came to take my guns… that would be the end of it for this country for sure, and I'm not willing to hand that over… (18:25)

00:18:27

I know I'm able to do it and I know I would do it.

00:18:30

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

What’s "it"?

00:18:34

LISA BOSHARD

Protect my rights. The rights of my friends, the rights of my loved ones, the rights of this country. (18:42)

00:18:44

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Yeah, but you mean armed struggle?

00:18:48

LISA BOSHARD

I think so. I wouldn't let it go easily, and probably not while I'm living. (19:00)

00:19:03

I feel like there are a lot of gun owners out there who don't take the responsibility of owning guns, carrying guns, storing guns… I don't think they take it seriously enough. (19:14)

00:19:16

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Well, why the resistance to regulation?

00:19:18

LISA BOSHARD

Because it leads to more regulation. It's too slippery of a slope. We can't have laws to protect people from their own stupidity. (19:28)

00:19:31

MAN (IN BLACK SHIRT, SPEAKING QUIETLY)

One hundred and eighty degrees back and select fire. (19:33)

00:19:33

LISA BOSHARD

Guys use a word ‘sexy’ when they talk about guns, I'm not going to, but they're romantic, they're emotional. (19:40)

00:20:14

RICHARD MACK (UNSEEN AT FIRST, THEN IN RED SHIRT)

A well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The Second Amendment and every state constitution guarantees my right to keep and bear arms. Why? For my personal safety and to preserve liberty. That's why. It's called America. (20:43)

00:21:43

MAN’S VOICE ON PHONE

911, what's the location of the emergency?

00:20:46

WOMAN’S VOICE ON PHONE

Sandy Hook School, I think there's somebody shooting in here. (20:49)

00:20:50

NARRATOR (ZED NELSON)

Mass shootings in America have become almost commonplace, but the Sandy Hook school massacre, where six and seven-year-olds were targeted by a gunman, reached a new level of horror and cut the raw nerve of the American gun debate. (21:05)

00:21:09

VICKY SYKES

Did it cause me to want to strengthen gun laws? Absolutely not. I think if one of those teachers, the principal, whoever, had had a gun, that young man possibly would not have killed anyone, or very few of the children would have died. (21:24)

00:21:24

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Do you think a teacher is going to be able to cope with a gunman with an AR-15 assault rifle?

00:21:29

OFFICER RALLINS

I think a properly trained teacher can adjust to any threat that they deal with. (21:36)

00:21:37

MIKE

I think it's friggin' fantastic that certain school districts are training their teachers so they can carry a weapon in school. (21:47)

00:21:51

YOUNG WOMAN (IN BLACK T-SHIRT, FIRING GUN)

Er, we go through drills, and we put ourselves in real scenarios. It was interesting to see how fast we get on the buses, how fast we do this, who actually got hit by the paintball gu… it was pretty cool, but pretty, you know, real-life scary too.

00:22:10

The SWAT team comes into our room and they're like everybody out! You know, put your hands up! And we're all putting our hands up and we're terrified and takes us out…

00:22:21

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

You had a SWAT team come into your school?

00:22:23

YOUNG WOMAN (IN BLACK T-SHIRT)

Yeah, we had a SWAT team, yes, we dd. Yes, this was in middle school. (22:28)

00:22:29

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

So people do sense that possibility of...

00:22:32

YOUNG WOMAN (IN BLACK T-SHIRT)

Oh yeah, we've got to be prepared.  (22:34)

00:22:39

MIKE

What do every single mass shooting have in common? Gun-free zones. (22:46)

00:22:46

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

I think there was an armed guard at Columbine? (22:49)

00:23:58

CHARLTON HESTON (at NRA convention, holding up rifle)

From my cold dead hands. (23:01)

00:23:04

TOM MAUSER

You know, I think that part of the problem is that the gun lobby has been very successful in getting their message out much more so than those who want to see reasonable gun laws. They’ve controlled the narrative that you're either for the Second Amendment or against the, you're either for freedom or against freedom. (23:23)

00:23:23

WAYNE LAPIERRE (at NRA convention)

The surest way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. (23:31)

00:23:38

SARAH READ

After these mass shootings gun sales do tend to go up, just because people start getting freaked out. People think that the government is going to take our guns. I mean, I hate seeing the shootings happen, but it is definitely… it is good for business. (23:54)

00:24:00

This is a Smith and Wesson MMP-15. It is our best-selling weapon right now. They look pretty tough… you know, you look like you're a… a badass, I guess. (24:16)

00:24:16

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Assault weapons seem to attract controversy.

00:24:20

MIKE

Yeah.

00:24:21

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

What is that?

00:24:22

MIKE

This is a semi-automatic rifle.

00:24:26

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Is it not an assault weapon?

00:24:28

MIKE

No.

00:24:29

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Why not?

00:24:31

MIKE

Semiautomatic. One pull of the trigger, one shot. (24:35)

00:25:01

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

And that's what differentiates it, is it, in, in your eyes, the fact that one's fully automatic and the other isn't? (24:42)

00:24:42

MIKE

Right.

00:24:43

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Why are they controversial then?

00:24:45

MIKE

Because the media and left-wing politicians want to make a boogeymen out of a tool. (24:53)

00:24:54

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

What is an assault rifle, I mean, there's such a debate even about what it is?

00:24:57

MEL BERNSTEIN

I know, I know, and I shouldn’t even call them an assault rifle… it's a military-style weapon, that's what they want me to say, a sporting gun, you know, different names but it's the same thing; it's a military weapon. (25:11)

00:25:14

DR. JERRY FRANCISCO

The only reason to buy an assault rifle is if you're going to make an assault on an enemy position and you need a lot of bullets, because you got a lot of people in the position you're attacking. The assault rifle was meant for an assault. It seems to me you don't need an assault rifle to kill a deer. (25:33)

00:25:32

TOM MAUSER

This ongoing debate that some people have about whether things like the AK-47 and the AR-15 are assault weapons or not, that whole discussion is absurd. It's the greatest friend that a mass shooter could have. (25:50)

00:25:51

POLICE EMERGENCY 9/11 TELEPHONE OPERATOR

Jefferson County 911.

00:25:52

VOICE OF SCARED TEACHER ON PHONE (PATTI NIELSON) 

On the floor! You’ve got to stay on the floor!... oh god… (25:57)

00:25:56

POLICE EMERGENCY 9/11 TELEPHONE OPERATOR

Stay on line with me. (25:57)

00:25:57

VOICE OF SCARED TEACHER ON PHONE (PATTI NIELSON) 

oh god…The gun is right outside the library door. (26:00)

00:26:02

TOM MAUSER

The two killers went out in search of guns, they were under 18, they got an 18-year-old to go to the gun show, to a gun show with them to make the purchase. They purposely sought out a private seller - that's the so-called ‘gun show loophole’ - where you can go to a gun show and at one table, if it's a licenced dealer, you have to go through a background check, but a table with a private seller - no background check. (26:27)

00:26:33

MEL BERNSTEIN

There's guns that I sold and everybody sells, every gun dealer, that are found all around the United States, in crimes. They should have, you know, mandatory registration nationwide. Everybody that owns a gun it should be registered in their name and they're responsible for that weapon. Why should you let some kid walk in a gun store, buy 15 guns and be able to give them to 15 of his friends with no receipt that he even sold them and everything's legal?

00:27:00

That means guns could be shipped in from the east coast and the west coat and sold in the newspaper to, to anybody that can't pass the background check. That's how the criminals get guns. (27:11)

00:27:17

TOM MAUSER

About 40% of all gun sales are private sales; they don't go through a background check. That means they're not going through a licenced dealer. Imagine going to an airport and having to go through security and they said OK, we're going to have 60% of the people go through security and 40% can bypass it. Would you get into that airplane? (47:40)

00:27:45

ADAM

I can teak you right now three miles from here and buy you anything you want on the side of the road. (27:52)

00:27:52

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Who's selling them then?

00:27:54

ADAM

Black market dealers. It's, it's out there… Facebook, for example, you can buy guns all day long on Facebook, you know, but... (28:02)

00:28:02

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Just privately.

00:28:03

ADAM

Privately, yeah, and that is still legal in Tennessee. As of now you can still do private sales in Tennessee, but... (28:10)

00:28:10

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Without a background check?

00:28:11

ADAM

Without a background check, you can. (28:13)

00:28:13

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

So you can sell it to anyone.

00:28:15

ADAM

Yes.

00:28:16

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Some people are trying to introduce a law that says that shouldn't be allowed, that you shouldn't be allowed to sell a gun without a background check. Do you think you should or you shouldn't be allowed to?  (28:27)

00:28:34

Do you not want to answer that one?

00:28:35

VICKY SYKES

Mmm, I prefer not to.

00:28:37

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

OK.

00:28:38

MR SYKES

Maybe there needs to be some things done to people where they're back to working again and not being given money by the government to run around and so whatever they want to. There's a lot of things we could address, maybe that's not the only problem, could be some mental health issues, could be drugs causing these problems, I don't know the answer, but WE are not the problem. (28:56)

00:29:02

INTERVIEWER (ZED NELSON)

Can anything be done? Should anything be done? (29:06)

00:29:15

MIKE

No. Let natural selection take its course. (29:22)

00:29:28

End credits

Directed, produced and filed by

ZED NELSON (29:32)

Commissioned for

THE GUARDIAN BERTHA DOCUMENTARY PARTNERSHIP (29:35)

Editor

NOAH PAYNE-FRANK (29:37)

Additional camera

DANIEL FRAMPTON

Composer/sound editor

PASCAL WISE

Song

MARLO SHERLOCK

Colour grade

KEN MACFARLANE

Researchers

CIAN OBA-SMITH

ROSIE MATHESON

CATHERINE HYLAND

Thanks to

JOHN EASTERBY

JAMES BROWN

MELISSA DENES

KATE EDWARDS

MATT SHONFELD

Commissioning editor

CHARLIE PHILLIPS

Associate producer

ROBERT BORZELLO

Executive producers

CHRISTIAN BENNETT

CHRISTO HIRD

Supported by

CAMDEN TRUST

BERTHA FOUNDATION

THE GUARDIAN

Logos:

BERTHA FOUNDATION

G (Guardian)

THE CAMDEN TRUST