Dateline,
Yes or No?
Transcript
DARAGH DOYLE, WEDDING
PLANNER: My name is Daragh Doyle, and I'm a wedding planner, primarily
focussing on the same sex wedding market in Ireland.
Ireland voted yes to
same-sex marriage two years ago and for the countries first gay wedding
planner, business is booming.
DARAGH DOYLE: The market
is really strong, 2016 saw the first year of full
marriage equality in Ireland, so we had about 1100 weddings last year.
Ireland is full of
same-sex couples tying the knot and today Daragh is helping two women with
their plans.
DARAGH
DOYLE: I always say to couples it's your day and your way, so what
theme or decoration do you have in mind for the wedding?
SINEAD: Like a
rustic, kind of vintage theme.
DARAGH
DOYLE: Rustic vintage.
Sinead and Aidene have
been together for three years. They're both mid wives who met at work.
DARAGH DOYLE: Now.
The type of ceremony, have you decided on that?
Over a home cooked meal,
Sinead popped the question she wasn't sure she was able to ask.
AIDENE: A normal
day, just kind of felt like something we wanted to do for the rest of our lives
so…
SINEAD: Yep so.
Um, I asked her, and she said …
AIDENE: I
said yes!
For them, the yes vote
meant so much more than just the right to marry.
AIDENE: Equal.
Equality. That's what it means, in one word. You couldn't really
say it any other way.
SINEAD: Just
to say that we feel accepted and that, you know, we feel the same as straight
couples here. You know, we feel like we're not different, we have the same
rights.
AIDENE:
Yeah, it's a big change, especially in Ireland, we're seen as a very backward
country, but actually we're very forward thinking. It
makes you really proud. Yeah.
Ireland decriminalised
homosexuality in 1993 and then voted on same-sex marriage two years ago. The
message from this small independent Republic to the entire world is one of
dignity and freedom. Nearly 42 years after the first Australian State decriminalised
being gay, Australia is new being asked to vote.
MALCOLM TURNBULL,
AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Every Australian will have their say and that
is as it should be.
Australia and Ireland
are the only two countries in the world to put same-sex marriage to a public
vote, so one person watching Australia with particular
interest is the co-director of Ireland's Yes Campaign.
GRAINNE HEALY,
CO-DIRECTOR OF ‘YES’ EQUALITY: I think Irish people have a bit of an
insight into what are the challenges that Australian's are facing when they
look at this issue. So a lot of the issues are quite
similar around what kind of an Australia do we want, we had to ask ourselves
what kind of an Ireland do we want for our kids, for our grandkids, are we a
forward looking country, are we a backward looking country?
Anyone who really is putting the child's interest first is supporting the
legislation.
Changing the definition
of marriage put long-held traditions to the test in Ireland.
PANELLIST:
Children being brought up in families that are very different.
Now it's Australia
debating the meaning of love, marriage and family. But unlike Ireland, the
political debate in Australia is allowed through ads on TV.
COALITION FOR MARRIAGE,
AUSTRALIA AUGUST 2017: School told my son he could wear a dress to school
next year if he felt like it.
This ad, launched by the
Coalition for Marriage in Australia, alleges there are unknown consequences for
voting yes.
COALITION FOR MARRIAGE,
AUSTRALIA AUGUST 2017: When same-sex marriage passes as law overseas,
this type of program become widespread and compulsory.
GRAINNE
HEALY: I think each of the assertions being made there are, you
know they're easily countered. They're not true. The issue here is about trying
to raise fears and if the fears are that people are afraid that their children
are going to grow up and there will be more of a challenge around gender the
clothes they wear, I mean, you know we're probably living in a time where this
is happening. I don't think same sex marriage is something that is going to
make that happen.
It's shaping up to be
one of the most emotive debates of the year in Australia, and it was the same
for Ireland.
REPORTER:
Beautiful day in Dublin.
SENATOR RONAN MULLEN,
INDEPENDENT SENATOR: Yes, by our standards very beautiful.
The leading political
voice of the Irish No Campaign is Senator Ronan Mullen.
SENATOR RONAN
MULLEN: You had this sense of oh well if you're on the, if you're going
to be portrayed as being on the wrong side of history, then you'd better just
shut up. I know of one case where a, a young person actually went to the school principle, just for a bit of
support because he was feeling, um, um, basically isolated, outcaste by his,
his fellow students, because it was this kind of mood generation in the
country.
He says the no camp was
shut down and made to feel like bigots when expressing their point of view. And
this meant a variety of opinions were not heard.
SENATOR RONAN
MULLEN: You create a mood that people will think I’m homophobic if I say
that I’m against redefining marriage, because I think a child has a right to a
father and mother, then some people will quite understandably come to think
that they don't have permission to think those thoughts.
He believes Ireland was
overtaken by a "group think" which saw the majority
of people voting yes.
SENATOR RONAN
MULLEN: We were almost encouraged to stay at home rather than go out and
vote, no! This is not your day, you know. There's been this sort of game
on kind of momentum, around the social change, around deconstructing marriage,
what it means. And I just don't hear much talk about the genuine rights of
children in all of this.
REPORTER: What are
your main concerns about same sex couples raising children?
SENATOR RONAN
MULLEN: Well I think the issue is really one of what children are
entitled to and I think, you know, all things considered, I think it is best,
it's not always possible, you have, you have very heroic single parents
bringing up children, and loving them, and make great sacrifices for them, but
I think in the law, we should always be encouraging the upbringing of children
within the family situation, ideally of their own father and mother or at least
having a father and a mother.
If you were in theory deciding between you know, whether a child should be
adopted to a single person, or a same sex couple, or you know, a heterosexual
couple or a married couple, no distinction's now
allowed. So it seems to have become very adult
centred. It's almost as though adults must have what they want, and then we'll
start talking about children's right.
REPORTER: So what advice would you give those campaigning on the No
side in Australia?
SENATOR RONAN
MULLEN: This is supposed to be about diversity, but in the end it was actually a closing down of diversity. And I really hope that doesn't happen in Australia, and I suspect
the way your debate is shaping up with kind of strong voices on both sides that
you may have a healthier debate than we had.
THE ‘YES’
CAMPAIGN: It’s about a fair go. Everyone should be treated equally. I'm
doing it for my brother.
Australia's campaigning
kicked off in August with both sides coming out firing. Posters and ad
campaigns are being released every day.
THE ‘NO’ CAMPAIGN:
We should be allowed to discuss the public policy issue without being labelled
a bigot or a homophobe.
Opponents to the
government's survey in Australia failed to have it shut down in the High Court
last week, and ballots are going out today. Even though Ireland voted yes, the
process itself brought unexpected difficulties.
MONINNE GRIFFITH,
DIRECTOR “BELONG TO’: For a lot of young people, they'd never seen,
they'd never witnessed firsthand the level of homophobia that's out there. And
it was really quite upsetting, and, and shocking.
Young people had falling outs with family members, who had said well we think
that it's ok that your gay, but we won’t be voting yes. I mean that is quite
difficult for anyone to process.
WOMAN: When your
own country doesn’t have your back, you are kind of standing on your own. You
know?
In the lead-up to
polling day, Ireland's LGBT helpline recorded a significant spike in calls from
people in crisis. Some sought help here at Belong To, a safe space for young
LGBTQI people.
WOMAN 2: Every day I was
walking to school, I was seeing these vote No posters,
and like, after seeing the Australian ones, our ones look so chill. Like I
dunno if you guys have seen them, but they're like really horrible..
People like Patrick
wished the vote happened in a different way.
PATRICK:
Ideally I would have preferred a referendum didn't happen because I didn't feel
that my life shouldn't have been up for discussion by other people, and for
them to have a vote on it.
But for Moninne, public
approval gave her and her partner new confidence.
MONINNE
GRIFFITH: Two days after the referendum I was going to a conference
in Washington DC and my partner left me off at the airport and we said goodbye,
and we kissed goodbye and that's a very ordinary scene at airport all over the
world, but I'd never done that with my partner before, without looking over my
shoulder to see who was looking, and whether we'd get a smart comment, or some
funny looks. But I felt I could do that for the first time ever and that's not
a little thing, that's a huge thing, that's a huge thing that I thought no, 62%
of people probably here in this airport voted yes.
Every county in Ireland
voted yes to same-sex marriage... except one. About two hours' drive from
Dublin in the heart of Ireland lies the town of Roscommon. This county got a
beating in the press after their no vote. Some even threatened to cancel their
holidays here and it's still a touchy subject. So No
voter Gerry O'Boyle has asked me to meet me in a quiet cafe at the edge of
town.
GERRY O’BOYLE, NO
VOTER: The biggest concern that I would have is for the children...
because they rushed in a referendum here in this country and no one put any
consideration or no thought into the children. Because I was… I was brought up
as a Roman Catholic and I was always a believer. It's Adam and Eve, not Adam
and Steve, you know what I mean?
REPORTER: I've heard it
said that some of these rural communities feel that the same-sex marriage
agenda was thrown on them from Dublin - From the big city.
GERRY O’BOYLE: The
population is a rural area, you know, people are kind of old stock. They go by
old beliefs. It's a big Catholic area. They said to me that the time of the
election was coming into Ireland. ‘Two prized bulls below in the field won't
put you into stock.’
Just a few kilometres
out of town is the farm of Will Keane. For him, the referendum was intensely
personal.
WILL KEANE, ‘YES’
EQUALITY ROSCOMMON: The genuine joy that we had for the 'yes' vote
in the entire country was incredible. But, when your own County votes the
opposites way- and is the only one to vote the opposite way- it's a bittersweet
victory. We went to the pub that night- we're Irish, of course we did – and I
put on such a happy face. I was genuinely happy. But there was still a bit of
me looking over my shoulder…
The campaign pushed Will
to do something he'd never done before - to persuade his neighbours to vote
yes, he revealed his sexuality for the first time.
WILL KEANE: We
used to wear the 'yes' equality t-shirts and the badges and everything like
that. So, we stuck out. And there was one particular
occasion where I was knocking on the door of this estate that I knew
well. It's kind of like coming out at every doorstep each time, and it
starts to get intimidating. It sounds like intimidation in a way. And I
was three-quarters of the way towards this estate and I just kind of broke
down. I had to go back to the car. But it was kind of like being outside
looking in on me in this situation and the possibility that this wouldn't pass.
That was worrying to me.
Will might not have won
enough locals over before the vote, but he says afterwards opinions changed.
WILL KEANE: The
funny thing is, after the vote, several people came up to me in Roscommon town
and said that they voted 'no'. But, after seeing the joy and elation in Dublin
Castle on the day of the result, they would have voted 'yes'.
MAN: I'm happy that
they're happy and we don't stand in the doorway of progress, we live and let
live, and god bless them all, and we'll leave it at that.
REPORTER: Can I, can I
ask you - did you vote in the referendum of same sex marriage?
MAN I didn't, no, no
no. I'm fond of women myself. God bless you.
The marriage referendum
was a defining moment in history for Ireland's gay community but across the
border in Northern Ireland, the fight for marriage is still raging.
We're about to pass from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland,
which is still part of the UK. The border is just up here. And... That was
it. A very small sign, a money-changing stand and really
no ceremony whatsoever. It essentially feels like exactly
the same country, but there's one big difference - here in Northern
Ireland, same-sex marriage is still illegal.
Northern Ireland is one of the last places in western Europe to still ban
gay marriage.
CROWD: What do we
want? Marriage equality.
MARK BRADFIELD, PASTOR
BETHEL BAPTIST: Where are you going to go to, are you going to
marry your sister, your brother, are you going to marry your dog, your granny,
your aunty, you going to marry your mother or your father.
CATHERINE:
In the beginning of the bible, it lays out God's design for marriage, that it's
between one man and one woman, and I think that that is the way it's supposed
to be.
Same-sex couples here
don't want the public vote like Australia - they want a government decision.
They say they don't want 1.8 million people debating their rights.
STEPHEN DONNAN, THE
RAINBOW PROJECT: The majority of people are
supportive of the campaign and they support the extension of marriage rights to
same sex couples, much the same way they do in Australia so we're just there,
we're not quite over the finish line yet…
Same-sex couples have
the right to civil unions here, but some want more than that and are staging
wedding-style protests.
STACEY: We might not
have the piece of paper to show it others have but you’re my soul mate, and
nothing can take that away.
PASTOR: Do you
Gemma take Stacey to be your wife, to love, honour, comfort and cherish her
from this day forth…
GEMMA: I do!
So why is same-sex
marriage illegal in Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland is ruled by Britain, but
it has the power to make its own laws. A majority of
politicians are for same-sex marriage here, but the ruling party - the
conservative DUP - continues to block it. To understand why, I've come to meet
DUP Minister, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson.
REPORTER: As a party,
what is the DUP's position on same-sex marriage?
SIR JEFFREY DONALDSON,
DUP MP LAGAN VALLEY: When this matter was discussed in the UK parliament,
first of all, there was a proposal to introduce
same-sex marriage in Great Britain and the DUP voted against that, as did many
other MPs from other parts of the UK. Because our position is that we believe
in the traditional concept of marriage as being between one man and one woman.
REPORTER: What do your
constituents tell you about the issue?
SIR JEFFREY
DONALDSON: Well, I've just been re-elected for a sixth term in
parliament with the largest ever majority that I've had. There are a number of reasons for that. But, the people who vote for
me and the people who I represent are well aware of my
views on these issues. I think that I speak for many people within our
community in taking the stance that I do in support of traditional marriage.
Whilst the DUP seem
determined to block same-sex marriage for as long as
they can, there are others in the ‘no’ camp that go further.
CORE ISSUES TRUST:
This film particularly looks at the...
Mike Davidson doesn't
agree with same-sex marriage because he believes you can change someone's
sexual preferences.
REPORTER: How many
people have you cured of homosexuality?
MIKE DAVIDSON, CORE
ISSUES TRUST: I wouldn't call it 'cure'. 'Cure' is a kind of
medical model. We are not medical practitioners so we don't treat people, we
don't cure people. We simply stand with them and facilitate things to support
their goals.
Mike admits many find
his views controversial. His methods have been denounced by the UK Council of
Psychotherapy and he's been suspended by the British Psychodrama Association.
ALLIA: I have
completely changed.
He won't say human
people he's moved away from homosexuality, but Mike says his own sexual desires
towards men have been dealt with and that he has helped others. Mike has protested against same-sex marriage across the UK and his
charity has caught a lot of public attention.
MIKE
DAVIDSON: If fathers are consistently taken out of the
equation, what is going to be the result in terms of the world that we live in
and the children who inhabit that world?
REPORTER: How long have
you been married for?
MIKE DAVIDSON:
Thirty-five years.
REPORTER:
Wow. And so, what impact do you feel same-sex marriage has on your marriage
with your wife?
MIKE DAVIDSON: I
don't think that marriage...
REPORTER: How does
it change your marriage if same-sex people are allowed to
marry?
MIKE DAVIDSON: It
undervalues the achievement of two people who are so different, who are
opposite have succeeded in building and bringing children up in that context of
a different....
While Mike can't quite
find an answer to this, the argument comes back to his perceived risk to
children. But marriage equality or not, Northern Ireland already has same-sex
couples raising kids.
DARRAGH TIBBS: My
parents have been together for 22 years, I've spent my
whole life with them.
Darragh is an ordinary
17-year-old from Belfast. But unlike other teenagers, he spends a lot of time
standing up for his family.
DARRAGH TIBBS: Whether or not we're given marriage equality, whether or not
we're actually seen as legitimate a family as heterosexual one, we are.
Darragh says public
opinion is shifting in Northern Ireland but politicians are standing in the way
of progress.
DARRAGH TIBBS: At
this stage the reason why it's not through, is because the people at the top
don't want it to be through. And it's gonna happen, because it has to, you can't avoid that many people, you can't ignore
that many people's wishes.
Despite the concerns of
strangers, Darragh says his family unit is just fine out a father.
DARRAGH TIBBS: To
me it seems inherently sexist to say a child needs a mother and a
father. Those qualities that you assign in your head as
inherently male, what you're saying is that a female can't do those
things. Somebody once said, 'the children of gay parents are more likely
to be neglected or abused'. That can make me angry sometimes, it's
needless singling out, and it doesn't make any sense.
You're talking about me here and this is, it's not acceptable.
MUM: We're
just this very ordinary wee family really, and it's kinda strange how worked up
people get about families like ours and relationships like ours because we're
clearly no threat to anybody.
So what difference would
marriage make to this family?
MUM 2: It's a
progression in our relationship, commitment to each other, a validation of us
as a couple and our family as a unit.
MUM: We've been
holding out for marriage in Northern Ireland.
DARRAGH TIBBS:
It's that whole progression, that whole, your parents are married, and you're
stable and you're safe, and you're protected by the law. So
when that's not given, then that is a problem for me, because it allows people
to ignore all the wonderful things about my family.
The conservative
Protestant church runs strong in Northern Ireland and many want marriage to remain unchanged.
PASTOR: Within
marriage, there is this balance between a man and a woman, two genders which
complement each other, which is not achievable in male to male, or female to
female.
MAN: Discussion is
based on feelings and slogans – so like, love is love – which doesn’t really mean anything. It’s not people thinking, it’s people
feeling…
GIRL: Why does redefining marriage mean that you are giving people equal
rights?
Australia won't know the outcome until November and even then
it's not legally binding. The vote may still leave us with uncertainty. But
that's not the case back in Dublin for gay wedding planner Daragh, and his
husband Neil, who are reveling in their knew status as
a legally married couple.
DARAGH
DOYLE: Civil partnership, while it was a good
things when it was introduced, and it was a step forward, it was
something I was never going to do personally. Because to me it was only 80% of
marriage, and I wasn’t interested in getting civil partnered, I was interested
in getting married. So when the actual wedding day
came, it was a day I never thought I would see in my life, and then you
experience that day, you know, it's actually a phenomenal feeling, and a very
special day.
Two years on from
Ireland's referendum, emotions on same-sex marriage still run strong and both
sides look with interest towards Australia's big decision.
reporter
dean cornish
story producer
joel tozer
ana maria quinn
associate producer
hannah berzins
story editor
simon phegan
micah mcgown
editors
micah mcgown
simon phegan
david potts
titles music
vicki hansen
12th September 2017