ARAN TORI (presenter)
SUBJECTS
VOICEOVER
Archive Footage
00:00
JACK SEN
I
wouldn’t want to import danger into my household, wouldn’t want to import
disease into my household.
00:07
ARAN TORI
When you
say danger and disease, what do you mean?
00:10
JACK SEN
Immigration
brings in danger and disease
00:12
ARAN TORI
You
think that’s down to other people coming in.
00:16
JACK SEN
HIV is a
combination of factors, it’s homosexuals, spread HIV, predominantly but the
only other way you see people getting it in Great Britain is through migrant
population.
00:31
VOICEOVER
I’ve been spending time with Britain’s Right
Wing Extremists. The election of London’s Muslim
mayor was seen as a progressive step in Britain’s diversity but was met with intense opposition by ultra
nationalists who claimed the nation was under threat
from Muslims and immigrants.
00:52
VOICEOVER
Since
the death of MP Jo Cox by extremist Thomas Mair, counter terrorism police have
foiled four terror plots.
00:59
Fox News Archive
footage
One was
a machete attack at a gay pride event. Another was the planned assassination of
a left leaning member of parliament.
01:09
ITV News Archive
footage
Jack
Renshaw had planned to kill her as part of what he called ‘White Jihad’. He
bought a nineteen inch machete and searched the internet to find out how to cut
the jugular artery.
01:31
VOICEOVER
(Driving/Walking Footage)
I was on
my way to meet to Milton Keynes to meet Anne Marie Waters, one of Britain’s
most anti-Islam and anti-immigrant figures. She viewed Islam as evil and wanted
an end to immigration from Muslim countries.
01:51
VOICEOVER
I joined her
on a campaign she was leading for her political party. She left UKIP after
coming second in it’s leadership race and said she wouldn’t oppose membership
for English Defence League founder, Stephen Lennon, known to many as Tommy
Robinson.
02:09
ANNE MARIE WATERS
There is
something happening in London tomorrow, and its happening at Speaker’s Corner.
Journalists from friendly democratic countries were detained by police in this
country and deported. Now they were deported because one of them wanted to
speak to Tommy Robinson…
02:28
VOICEOVER
Anne Marie
was referring to Alt Right Vlogger Brittany Pettibone and her partner, Martin
Sellner, a leader of a White Nationalist movement in Austria. They were denied
entry on the grounds their presence would inflame community tensions. Martin
Selner’s speech was now going to be delivered by Tommy Robinson.
02:50
ANNE MARIE WATERS
There
are now prayers being held on a regular basis at Speaker’s Corner. We here, the
people of Europe, the native people of Europe, our parents, and our
grandparents, and our great grandparents, to us, this religion is new and its
imported and it's not us, it's not ours. The borders are staying open, and that
is what it all comes down to. This new, globalised world. Look at this truth,
this is the truth. These, these traitors in Westminster need to know that we’re
watching.
03:28
VOICEOVER
A rally on the way to the pub followed so I caught
up with Anne Marie.
03:34
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Lets go… oh
bloody hell. Lets let people know why we’re here.
Why should I
be tolerant when there’s no tolerance required from the other side?
03:48
ARAN TORI
But they’re
extremists, they’re different, aren’t they?
03:51
ANNE MARIE WATERS
No, no, no,
no, no, no, Massive population in this country is overwhelmingly Pakistani. Now
look at Pakistan, blasphemy carries the death penalty, and not because a tiny
minority of extremists want it but because the vast majority of the country
supports it.
04:06
ARAN TORI
Surely those
same laws don’t, wouldn’t be imposed here, there are many Muslim countries
around the world and they all have different laws. What would you say to those
that say that your speech is racist?
04:19
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Well I would
say you’re a disingenuous liar.
04:32
VOICEOVER
Mingling with her supporters, and a few drinks later Anne Marie
joined me. I was hoping
to get an insight into her view of Muslim dominance.
04:41
ANNE MARIE WATERS
As I
said in my speech, it’s been ... we have now Muslim prayer at Speaker’s Corner.
04:48
ARAN TORI
What’s
wrong with Muslim people praying?
04:50
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Well
everything is wrong with it. To my mind it's a show of dominance, and why pick
Speaker’s Corner, because they know that’s where free speech…
04:57
ARAN TORI
Why
dominance though?
04:58
ANNE MARIE WATERS 1
Well
because… to intimidate and to show that freedom of speech may be your value but
it isn’t ours.
05:07
ARAN TORI
I find
it difficult to see that.
05:09
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Praying
at Speaker’s Corner is a symbol, it's a sign of dominance, and you don’t see it
but I do because I know more about the religion, frankly.
05:17
ARAN TORI
I just
see praying as a relatively peaceful act.
05:21
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Right.
Well, not from a violent religion it’s not.
05:24
ARAN TORI
No no, I
just want to learn about what you’re saying, why you think that it’s a show of
dominance.
05:27
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Because
it is. Look around the world, you only need to look at the world, you only need
to look at the world-
05:32
ARAN TORI
But
can’t you think there can be this co-existence?
05:35
ANNE MARIE WATERS
How can you
co-exist? You don’t get it, you just don’t get it. We are being asked to water
down, to rein in, freedoms it took our ancestors years to establish.
We should
not be expected to alter our way of doing things to accommodate them.
05:51
ARAN TORI
Sure. But
I...
05:52
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Simple as
that.
05:52
ARAN TORI
But I fail
to see how this is being done, that we in Britain are adapting to Islam and
Islamic values.
06:01
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Right. I
explained that we detained journalists for purely for the reasons that they
don’t like Islam. You won’t have Islam unless you have Muslims, it’s as simple
as that.
06:14
ARAN TORI
Don’t you
think a lot of blaming comes onto them unfairly? There’s this racial drive ...
06:20
ANNE MARIE WATERS
It’s people
like you who make it into a racist drive, its the media who makes it into
racism, I've never said anything about race.
06:25
ARAN TORI
No no, no,
British Muslims can turn into British Asians, that’s all I’m saying.
06:30
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Let me give
you an example, let me give you an example. The rape gangs in this country are
almost exclusively Muslim and it's not, they’ll blame it on Pakistanis but if
you go to Bristol it’s actually Somalis. And yet the media insists on calling
them Asian, I don’t call them Asian. The media calls them Asian. So if anyone
is responsible-
06:48
ARAN TORI
You call
them. You’re adamant to call them Muslims?
06:48
ANNE MARIE WATERS
I call them
Muslims. Yes, they are Muslims. It won’t work. You’re too different, and we,
the natives of Europe and of Britain, are being asked to compromise our values
in order to accommodate something that we consider barbaric and medieval, and
we don’t want it.
07:07
ARAN TORI
I think it
does take some time for immigrants to assimilate-.
07:11
ANNE MARIE WATERS
And how many
of our people are we going to sacrifice for them to- You see, here’s the point.
What’s in it for us? What exactly do the British gain from opening our doors to
half the world and then saying well it’ll take time for them to integrate? You
know, if 1,000, or 10,000, or 100,000 girls are raped or mutilated in the
meantime, well that’s fine, it’ll take time for them to integrate. No, no, it's
not our problem, it's not our job to-.
07:36
ARAN TORI
Sure Anne
Marie, but you can’t say that’s all because of immigrants?
07:40
ANNE MARIE WATERS
It would not
have happened had those men not been allowed into this country.
07:46
VOICEOVER
The next day I was on my
way to hear a speech by Tommy Robinson.
07:53
Steven Crowder Archive
footage
You have
gone completely independant, tell people what that means and where...
07:56
VOICEOVER
His show
on the Far Right Canadian website ‘The Rebel’ boosted his following and after
leaving the online media he filmed and shamed British Asians suspected of sex
offence while on their way to court.
08:11
VOICEOVER
I was in
Speaker’s Corner, in Hyde Park.
08:39
VOICEOVER
There was
speculation about Tommy not showing because
the speech, written by the Austrian Nationalist had attracted the attention of
authorities.
08:51
ARAN TORI
Do we, we
haven’t actually seen him yet, do we know for sure, he’s definitely going to
turn up?
08:54
TR SUPPORTER
You don’t
know, I don’t know, you know what I mean, who knows, let’s just see what
happens.
09:10
TOMMY ROBINSON
No to
Islamisation, no to mass immigration, and no to the great replacement!
09:20
VOICEOVER
Tommy said
the indigenous European population was being replaced. I waited anxiously
amongst his fans to talk to him but he made a quick exit with his entourage,
leaving Nationalists and Muslims to face off.
09:33
TR SUPPORTER - VINNIE
SULLIVAN
This
Cultural Marxism, which is affecting us, this anti-white hatred, which is
affecting us, is now, is now so heavily embedded, that our American brothers
laugh at us.
09:42
PROTESTER - MOHAMMED HIJAB
The
ideology of Tommy Robinson, is an ideology of fascism and intolerance.
10:06
Mobile phone filming of
Manchester Concert bombing Archive footage | Text appears “Bob
detonated in Ariana Grande concert, Manchester Arena, 22nd May 2017”
10:13
Mobile phone filming of
Manchester Concert bombing Archive footage | Text appears “22
people died and 500 injured”
10:11
VOICEOVER
Tensions
run high after the terror attacks with Muslim communities feeling the
after-effect.
10:17
VOICEOVER
A month
after the concert bombings, Darren Osborne drove into Muslims in London,
outside Finsbury Park mosque, killing one person and injuring 12. Metropolitan
police stated in court that his act of terror was influenced by Tommy
Robinson’s online media.
10:33
Mobile phone filming of
Manchester Concert bombing Archive footage | Text: “Sky News”
appears
Just minutes
before this man was at the wheel of a van, driven at speed into a crowd of
unsuspecting worshippers, leaving the mosque after Ramadan prayers.
MIDDLE
Introducing
subject: Paul Pitt
10:46
VOICEOVER
There
was a belief that Britain was at war with Muslims and it’s ethnic minorities,
and it led me to my next contact, Paul Pitt, real name Paul Prodromou. An
advocate for White Pride, he gained notoriety at protests for his fiery temper.
11:05
ARAN TORI
Paul?
How are you doing?
11:08
PAUL PITT
Yeah not
too bad, yourself?
11:09
ARAN TORI
Good
good, alright.
11:12
PAUL PITT
I come
from a multicultural family.
11:14
ARAN TORI
But
don’t you think Paul, that contradicts what you- you know I mean, sharing a
platform for example with the National Front , which you have, and they’re
considered to be a fascist group, a political movement?
11:26
PAUL PITT
They’re
whites only, they’re whites only the National Front. There’s not one white
movement in the last 40 years since Hit- well longer than that, since the
Second World War...
11:36
ARAN TORI
… You
were going to say since Hitler.
11:37
PAUL PITT
Yeah,
since Hitler, that when a white man stuck his head up. I’m genuinely saying it
out of a love for white people to say look, we should be able to take care of
ourselves, we should look and put ourselves forward- the only race on the face
of the Earth that don’t do it is the white people.
11:56
ARAN TORI
Can you
project that love for others as well? ethnic minorities.
12:00
PAUL PITT
Yeah,
yeah. Again, I said to you, I don’t hate the person because of the colour of
their skin. If we’re talking about a wider white issue then it should be
channelled purely towards the politicians because they’re the ones who sold us
out for the last 40 years.
12:15
ARAN TORI
Sold the
whites out?
12:16
PAUL PITT
Yeah,
sold everybody out this country, primarily the whites as well, yeah.
12:26
PAUL PITT
Everybody
should be proud of their race and who they are, surely. Shall we stand over
here out of the wind or shall we carry on walking?
12:30
ARAN TORI
I was
wondering, how much more do we have to walk to get to the nature reserve?
12:33
PAUL PITT
Its
miles, you can go on for miles and miles.
12:36
PAUL PITT
If you
deny people a voice, they have no other choice but to resort to violence.
Expect bloodshed, expect mayhem on the streets, because at the end of the day
people are fighting for what they believe in.
12:46
ARAN TORI
But a
lot of people say that the voice of hatred is the wrong way to go about it.
12:51
PAUL PITT
Is what?
Because they’re white people? Because they speak?
12:53
ARAN TORI
No
because it's hatred.
12:55
PAUL PITT
It’s not
hatred. At the end of the day.
12:56
ARAN TORI
And they
create violence.
12:57
PAUL PITT
They was
ignored. The man that killed Joan Cox was ignored and went off on one. Is it
right? Well, people will understand why he done it because he was ignored, the
same as the guy who drove the van into the Muslims at Finsbury Park.
13:14
ARAN TORI
Because
of the ideological belief that you carry, do you have to have two different
personas?
13:21
PAUL PITT
I’m the
same person, everyone knows me. They knew me long before I started all this.
13:25
ARAN TORI
Why do
you carry the name Paul Pitt?
13:40
PAUL PITT
That
doesn’t matter, does it? You know what I mean, you know in the real...
13:46
ARAN TORI
For your
safety?
13:48
PAUL PITT
To
protect my family and that, yeah.
13:49
ARAN TORI
There is
that element of danger for your family that comes from what you say.
13:54
PAUL PITT
That’s
why I don’t ever have my family on film. It’s why I don’t, I wouldn’t take you
to my house, I wouldn’t introduce you to my family. Because I can’t. I wouldn’t
ask them to take on what my beliefs, to pay the price for what I believe in.
14:11
PAUL PITT
What I’d
like to see all the Muslims in this country, all normal Joe Muslim walking
around, yeah, take responsibility for your religion. Take responsibility for
the men that are fucking killing innocent people in the name of your religion.
14:25
ARAN TORI
No
matter how much ordinary Muslims integrate themselves and adapt to the culture
and principles and values of Britain, you will still see Islam as evil, won’t
you?
14:41
PAUL PITT
Myself?
14:41
ARAN TORI
Won’t
you?
14:42
PAUL PITT
Yeah because
I do feel Islam is evil.
14:44
ARAN TORI
I just
wonder that instead of going along with the rhetoric that you have, that can
potentially fuel and provoke.
14:54
PAUL PITT
What do you
suggest? We say, oh, embrace everyone because not every Muslim is a terrorist?
15:00
ARAN TORI
What about
the peaceful resolution? You know...
15:02
PAUL PITT
Really? Do
you believe that there is going to be a peaceful resolution to this? There is
no peaceful solution and I don’t think there ever will be.
15:11
ARAN TORI
Do you think
that things are likely in that case to escalate? Some have said things like
civil war happening and...
15:19
PAUL PITT
I could see
that happening, I could see it happening the same as what happened in Northern
Ireland.
15:27
ARAN TORI
What do you
think about that?
15:28
PAUL PITT
I think it’s
terrible, it will break my fucking heart. I will fucking cry, I will cry to see
my country destroyed in that way and us having no other choice. But I do
believe it’s going to happen.
15:41
VOICEOVER
I felt
disappointed I couldn’t encourage Paul’s outlook towards a more tolerant
approach.
15:49
VOICEOVER
(Wide shot of Essex city Footage)
Earlier
this year, numerous letters had been posted and circulated online inviting
people to 'Punish a Muslim Day', rewarding points for the level of violence
used in attacks.
16:02
VOICEOVER
Tech
companies were closing accounts of Radical Right Wing figures for reinforcing
such messages of hate. Nationalists were calling it a clampdown on their
freedom of speech.
16:16
VOICEOVER
I headed
to the coastal town of Lowestoft in Suffolk to meet the former social media
administrator of the EDL. His name is Ivan Humble and he used to be the
regional organiser for the East Anglian Division and had now become a
campaigner for tolerance.
16:32
IVAN HUMBLE
After I
left, I realised the consequences of my actions, with my children, especially
my eldest daughter. The 2 kids at home, they had been neglected, I weren’t
hurting them or nothing but they were going without my time. I think back then,
I had quite a ruthless heart, my heart was covered, if you understand what I
mean.
16:53
VOICEOVER
Ivan’s
tattoos signified the loyalty he once had to his EDL division.
16:59
IVAN HUMBLE
I had erm,
it kind of, most tattoos have a meaning, this is probably the only tattoo that
has real meaning.
17:05
ARAN TORI
It says we
have far more in common than which divides us.
17:08
IVAN HUMBLE
Yes, Jo
Cox’s saying. I’ve realised that, I suppose, the passion for what I do now is
realising that we’ve got common ground with people we think that we hate or
disagree with, and by not attacking their differences no more and working on
the common ground, the division seems less.
17:31
IVAN HUMBLE
When you’re
in that mindset you only see your point of view. There’s a fine line between
freedom of speech and hate speech.
17:40
ARAN TORI
Their
argument is that, if their opinions are closed down and they’re not able to
express themselves on social media then they’re being censored.
17:52
IVAN HUMBLE
You’ll
always have that argument. That argument will always be there. Because somebody
will always think they’re being silenced.
17:57
ARAN TORI
Because they’re
saying it’s not hate speech, it’s them just freely expressing themselves?
18:00
IVAN HUMBLE
That’s
because, they’re obviously, they believe in their head, It’s because it’s a
genuine concern, but they’re not seeing their own sugar-coated agenda around
it.
18:07
ARAN TORI
I’m going to
be meeting with the youth member of the NBU.
18:12
IVAN HUMBLE
Oh, are you?
18:13
ARAN TORI
Their
leader’s Gary Reik-.
18:14
IVAN HUMBLE
Gary Reiks,
yeah. Yeah see, I’ve kind of known Gary for a long time as well, because he was
around when I was in the EDL, I remember him, seeing him then. They’ve got
quite mad ideas they have, ain’t they? They’re properly fascist, they’re just
like Mosley was years ago.
18:32
VOICEOVER
Ivan told me
that Gary Reiks was seeking followers at the anti-Muslim street movement named
the Football Lads Alliance. The NBU had its roots in the anti-Jewish political
party of the 1930s called British Union of Fascists, led by Oswald Mosley,
notorious for campaigning for Britain to ‘make peace with Hitler’. Their party
was outlawed by the government after the start of the Second World War.
19:02
VOICEOVER
I left
for Leeds to see the group’s leading youth member, Jack Williams, who asked for
his face not to be shown. He was a second year university student with a
personal admiration for the Fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini.
19:18
JACK WILLIAMS
Under
our system, the government would have almost no power. It’s important that I
distinguish this movement from, you know, some of the lunacy that is preached
by people who claim the same title as us? The basis, tenets of our ideology
are, stem from fascism.
19:36
VOICEOVER
To
lighten the mood I suggested a game of pool.
19:49
ARAN TORI
How
would the Fascist party work within the political system of Britain today? Do
you approach the British government and say that we need to overthrow this
system?
20:00
JACK WILLIAMS
Certainly
I’m not calling for anything illegal, not some kind of physical armed
revolution.
20:06
ARAN TORI
So it’s
not revolution, it’s reform?-
20:08
JACK WILLIAMS
Well, no
it is revolution. The necessity for a revolution is, cannot be understated,
it’s, it is a necessity. You know, there are so many ills with British society
that simply tweaking bits here and there will not cut it, it will not make
people happy. If we want to deliver people unto happiness, we absolutely have
to rethink the whole system.
20:29
ARAN TORI
For
those who just want a basic understanding of what the NBU is about?
20:32
JACK WILLIAMS
Our
principal goal, bringing the nation together.
20:35
ARAN TORI
Can you
leave the Nazi salute out?
20:38
JACK WILLIAMS
Well I..
20:58
ARAN TORI
Because
of the historical connotation?
20:41
JACK WILLIAMS
You
know, I can’t speak for any other people in that regard but I personally don’t
choose to use it for that exact reason that you’ve just given.
21:46
ARAN TORI
But the
leader of the NBU has...
21:48
JACK WILLIAMS
Sure. He
doesn’t do it in reverence to Adolf Hitler, he does it because it was the
movement, the salute of all Fascist movements.
20:57
VOICEOVER
As
abhorrent as his views were, Jack wasn’t a die hard Neo Nazi Fascist but it
looked like he was on a path to becoming one.
21:06
ARAN TORI
You’re
the leader of the youth…
21:07
JACK WILLIAMS
Well
actually, recently I was promoted, if you will, over the last couple of days
I’m now head of the propaganda department.
21:15
ARAN TORI
And how
does that fit in with your university schedule, being a student?
21:21
JACK WILLIAMS
Half my
time is dedicated to my academic pursuits, and then the other half is dedicated
to the moral tenets that I feel to be justified.
21:30
ARAN TORI
Would I
be right in saying your family knows?
21:32
JACK WILLIAMS
My
family have some idea but not, it’s just more convenient not to tell people,
it’s unfortunate. It’s a, an inevitable consequence of not listening to what we
have to say. It’s going to fuel extremism from this ideology, and the people
are gonna get resentful and they’re going to turn to extremist politics.
21:53
ARAN TORI
So I
think what you’re saying is that it justifies far right extremism?-
22:17
JACK WILLIAMS
It
doesn’t justify, I’m not talking about from a moral perspective. I’m talking
about just, it is a necessary consequence. We have white rhinos and black
rhinos in nature, but if the white rhinos are going extinct, you know, we seek
to preserve that, it’s a perfectly natural thing. We want to preserve the
beautiful diversity of human development, and if there’s a mathematical reason
to suspect.
22:21
ARAN TORI
But
that’s not what’s happening here, the white population is a majority, is a vast
majority.
22:26
JACK WILLIAMS
It
certainly is but it’s also the fastest declining population in Britain,
and..we, we can’t let the white British people become a minority.
22:46
ARAN TORI
How do
you feel about being called ‘Propaganda Officer?’
22:53
JACK WILLIAMS
It’s an
accurate description of my role.
22:57
ARAN TORI
But
propaganda to me means that you’re projecting a biased view? Isn’t that what it
means in general?
23:04
JACK WILLIAMS
Well,
I’m biased towards my own political ideology, just as the Conservatives are
biased towards Conservative… It’s a genuine belief, I don't believe...
23:13
ARAN TORI
That’s
the thing, I don't believe that the Conservatives are biased just to their own
view, they will look at other viewpoints as well.
23:27
ARAN TORI
Do you
genuinely believe that the people would, you would gain support from the people
about racism, about genocide, getting rid of other cultures, other people with
other beliefs like Jews in World War 2? Can you see how that would be scary
for...
23:44
JACK WILLIAMS
Yeah I
do, We are only being honest in what we believe.
23:51
ARAN TORI
You said
before that Hitler was a bad apple, but Oswald Mosley wanted to be an ally with
him.
23:57
JACK WILLIAMS
Not an
ally, he just didn’t want war, there’s a difference, like allying with
someone-.
24:02
ARAN TORI
So
wasn’t he fond of him?
24:06
JACK WILLIAMS
I
wouldn’t say it was something that it was a fondness that Mosley didn’t have
heaps more for, for Mussolini and Rivera and so on...
24:16
VOICEOVER
I sensed
Jack was uncomfortable admitting to the atrocious principles of the NBU and
struggled to repackage the group’s image to current times from it’s 1930’s pro
Nazi views.
24:28
VOICEOVER
His
views had led him to an isolated world, causing him to keep a part of his life
hidden from family and friends. I couldn’t help feeling sorry for Jack,
wondering if he was being groomed by his seniors in the NBU.
24:44
VOICEOVER
I
arrived in Birmingham, home to one of the largest Muslim populations in
Britain. The Football Lads Alliance were rallying at the heart of the city
against what they called ‘Islamist Extremism’.
24:56
VOICEOVER
There
were rumours NBU leader Gary Reicks would be here. Unable to spot him I came
across a White nationalist Identitarian leafleting. He didn’t want to talk to
me so instead I looked for Anne Marie Waters, invited to speak at the rally.
25:17
ARAN TORI
Hello
Anne Marie, how are you doing?
25:26
ANNE MARIE WATERS SUPPORTER
You’re
the voice of our people, and brilliant a voice you’ve got, darling, a brilliant
voice you’ve got.
25:32
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Thank
you, very kind.
25:35
ARAN TORI
You’re seen
as a bit of a celebrity here.
25:37
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Only, only
here.
25:39
ANNE MARIE WATERS
It’s all a
bit overwhelming, really. But...trying not to think about it too much. Just
think about the job I have to do.
25:47
ARAN TORI
I don’t know
if antifa are going to be here today, but march against racism is going to be
here. What, what do you think about them?
25:53
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Well, they,
what is what’s, why is march against racism opposing us? It’s got nothing to do
with racism.
26:01
VOICEOVER
I wasn’t
convinced Anne Marie was oblivious to the belief that she was racializing a
religious community.
26:07
ANNE MARIE WATERS
It’s
absolutely insane that the media is so focused on people like me.
26:12
VOICEOVER
Her like
minded colleague Tommy Robinson also made a presence.
26:21
TOMMY ROBINSON
How are you,
babe? Alright?... I’ve been better.
26:22
T.R. SUPPORTERS (crowd
cheers)
Tommy,
Tommy, Tommy, Robinson.
26:25
TOMMY ROBINSON
I’ve been
better.
26:27
T.R. SUPPORTER
Free speech!
free speech!
26:29
ARAN TORI
You
think he likes the spotlight a bit.
26:31
ARAN TORI
Tommy,
hi, I’m Aran, would it be OK to have a chat later? About the event and
everything?
26:54
TOMMY ROBINSON
Yeah,
yeah, cool, yeah, yeah, no worries.
26:36
ARAN TORI
Great.
26:40
T.R. SUPPORTER
Come on
Tommy Robinson!
26:42
VOICEOVER
While Tommy
agreed to talk to me I lost him amongst the crowd and heard he and UKIP leader,
Gerard Batten had joined the FLA’s splinter group named the Democratic FLA.
26:52
ANNE MARIE WATERS
We’re
living in a very dark time in this country’s history, a really dark time. We
live in a country where the police spend more time on Twitter than they do on
Jihadis. We have to bring down the European Union, and we will bring it down.
27:10
MAN IN CROWD
Fuck the
EU!
27:13
ANNE MARIE WATERS
There’s
another one, another big issue. And that, of course, is Islam. You will offend
moderate Muslims with your language. Well I’m sorry, but millions of decent
British people are offended by this religion, and the poison it’s bringing into
our country.
27:41
VOICEOVER
The
street movement and its eventual successor, the DFLA, were being called the new
English Defense League, and again, Tommy Robinson was the leading figure for
it’s protestors.
27:54
VOICEOVER
Known to
accommodate football hooligans in high numbers, this is Britain’s biggest
anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant mobilisation. I imagined Anne Marie saw them as
potential voters for her political party …
(Protestors march through Birmingham -
Classical music)
28:08
GERARD BATTEN (Archive
footage)
You have
our official support...
28:12
VOICEOVER
and like
her, so did UKIP leader Gerard Batten. Who also allowed party membership to
Tommy Robinson.
Gerard Batten VIDEO - 12
(Freeze frame 2 seconds on Gerard Batten and Tommy Robinson)
Move frame left, as frame moves move next footage alongside to the left. Play
footage while in motion.
28:23
VOICEOVER
Britain’s
EU exit deal had contributed to anti establishment sentiment in national
populists and the internet was their haven for getting politically organised.
28:38
VOICEOVER
A
sophisticated network unified ultra nationalists across Europe and the U.S.,
catering the message of preserving the indigenous White culture. I was going to
meet one of it’s prominent architects, a former UKIP parliamentary candidate in
Liverpool.
28:54
ARAN TORI
How are
you doing, Jack?
28:54
JACK SEN
How’s it
going?
28:56
ARAN TORI
Good,
good.
28:57
JACK SEN
Nice to
meet you, how’re you doing? How do you do?
28:57
ARAN TORI
Nice to meet
you, how’re you doing? How do you do?
29:58
JACK SEN
Good to
see you, good to see you.
28:59
VOICEOVER
He’s
allegedly the spin doctor for Irexit, Ireland’s exit from Europe and his name
is Jack Sen.
29:10
ARAN TORI
So, back
from, obviously, Ireland.
29:13
JACK SEN
Ireland,
yeah.
29:14
ARAN TORI
How was
it?
29:14
JACK SEN
It was
good
29:15
ARAN TORI
Yeah
29:15
JACK SEN
Good
trip.
29:15
JACK SEN
A lot of
work, we were working with a Irish Nationalist organisation basically working
to push for Irexit, which is the equivalent of Brexit, so.
29:22
ARAN TORI
Right.
And how’s that coming along?
29:23
JACK SEN
Well,
erm, the website’s, I’ve basically built the website.
29:29
JACK SEN
I still
live here, like, legally.
29:31
ARAN TORI
Yes
29:31
JACK SEN
But,
because of the problems we have we thought it was just easier to stay there.
Because of the nature of this sort of politics. The idea of pushing legislation
where you would, erm, social services would get involved with children for
nationalists, when, we have children, obviously. They’re gonna pass a new law,
where extremists can lose their children. It was actually for, erm, Islamic
extremists, but they kind of extended it to also mean, anyone they deem to be
extreme, and then they, the London Met leader actually said ‘Far right
extremists’.
30:00
VOICEOVER
Jack had
concerns about authorities knowing where he is and it looked like it because of
his beliefs.
30:06
JACK SEN
I think
Islamic people are culturally inassimilable. I don’t believe that there’s any
place for mosques in Great Britain. Personally, I don’t believe there is. I
believe that there, I mean.
30:16
ARAN TORI
How many
mosques do you think there should be in Britain?
30:18
JACK SEN
How many
should there be? Zero, zero. A hundred percent zero. There shouldn’t be one
mosque in Great Britain.
30:26
ARAN TORI
I would see
that as complete religious intolerance.
30:30
JACK SEN
It’s a
Christian country. It’s Christ, part of Christendom. Europe natives have a
right to fight back. I don’t really want to harp on Muslims, I think that all
forms of immigration are poisonous, are toxic.
31:41
JACK SEN
There’s a
type of nationalism which is obsessed with Islam. People like Tommy Robinson
and, you know, some of these, um, counter-jihad movements, which are obsessed
with Islam. Everything else is fine. You
know, blacks from Nigeria, as long as they’re Christian, fine. It’s fine to
push homosexuality in schools, cultural Marxism is fine. Anne Marie Waters,
everything is fine, it’s just Muslims. Well, I ask, “Is a black Nigerian who’s
more, has a higher propensity to commit crime than a pakistani does actually,
better immigrant than a pakistani?” I would argue no, I would argue they both,
erm, it’s like choosing a form of cancer you want to be afflicted by, I don’t
think you’d want to choose one form of cancer over another, you wouldn’t want
cancer.
31:23
JACK SEN
When the
nation is too homogenous, when it’s too nationalistic, the Jews typically are the
first groups that’s pushed out as we’ve seen across Europe. I think Jewish
ethnocentrism is fine, in their country but I don’t think it works in my
country. I think it harms...
31:37
ARAN TORI
What do you
mean their country?
31:38
JACK SEN
Well Israel,
it’s their country now.
31:40
ARAN TORI
But Jewish
people regard themselves as British.
31:43
JACK SEN
Why, why are
they acting, why are they not acting in their best interest of their host
nations?
31:47
ARAN TORI
Whatever
country they may be, they regard themselves as loyal and
31:51
JACK SEN
They
don’t...
31:51
ARAN TORI
...to that
culture
31:52
JACK SEN
I disagree,
I disagree with you, I disagree with you a hundred percent. They don’t
intermarry, Jews don’t intermarry.
31:56
ARAN TORI
You can’t
say that’s representative of all Jews
31:57
JACK SEN
Of course
not. I’d say as a strategy, it’s a strategy. I’m an ethnic nationalist, I
believe Britain should remain English, uh, and, but there are places and people
who are not fully English, I’m not fully English. Genuinely...
32:10
ARAN TORI
Under your political
principle, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t be considered English then.
32:14
JACK SEN
I would
consider myself three quarters.
32:15
ARAN TORI
Because
you’re not fully English. I do regard myself as English and British.
32:19
JACK SEN
But you are
British, but you’re not English. I’m not fully English.
32:22
ARAN TORI
Why? Why am
I not English?
32:23
JACK SEN
Because I’m
not in, okay, I lived in America, at one point, was I Native American? Why was
I not Native American? Because I’m not indigenous to North America.
32:32
ARAN TORI
But if you
live in the culture of Native Americans, then they’ll adopt that culture and
values.
32:38
JACK SEN
But English
is not a culture, English is a race, it’s an identity, a racial identity, it’s
ethnic identity.
33:39
ARAN TORI
I just feel
like there’s so many more important things that-that we need to, erm...
32:43
JACK SEN
No
32:44
ARAN TORI
...project
in our culture, in our nation...
32:45
JACK SEN
I don’t
think so
32:46
ARAN TORI
The people,
erm, to have coexistence and, and tolerance and equality and - to not be too
focused on ethnic identity.
32:56
ARAN TORI
In the work
that you do in Resistance Radio
32:59
JACK SEN
Yeah.
32:59
ARAN TORI
You have a
relatively close relationship with the Alt-Right in the states (U.S.).
33:04
JACK SEN
I do, I
write a not as much as I used to, but I used to write for the oxhill observer,
and I still do, uh, which is run by Dr. Kevin Macdonald, uh, who is probably
the, I like to see as the grandfather of the of the Alt-Right. My director of
media communications for Resistance Radio and for British Renaissance has
actually, is the director of communications for Alt-Right dot com, which is,
which is Richard Spencer’s, um, organization. I’m actually in communication
with Richard right now to set up a European conference, actually, free speech
event in Europe where Richard will be the headline speaker and I would be the
kind of the organiser and I would speak as well, of course, so.
33:37
RICHARD SPENCER Archive
footage start
The word
racist is a fake word. It’s a way of trying to shut down speech
33:40
“Richard Spencer” text appears over
archive footage
33:42
LADY IN AUDIENCE
Do you feel
that white people are superior, do you think you are better than I am?
33:46
RICHARD SPENCER
There’s no
ultimate object.
33:48
LADY IN AUDIENCE
Are you
better than me?
34:49
JACK SEN
I wouldn’t
want, um, to import danger into my household, wouldn’t want to import disease
into my household.
33:57
ARAN TORI
When you say
danger and disease, what do you mean?
33:59
JACK SEN
Immigration
brings in danger and disease.
34:02
ARAN TORI
You think
that’s down to other people coming in?
34:05
JACK SEN
Well, HIV
is, it’s a combination of factors it’s, homosexuals spread HIV, predominantly,
but the only other way you see people getting it in Great Britain is through
migrant population.
34:17
JACK SEN
Want to get
a drink or something, of water?
34:19
ARAN TORI
That would
be nice.
34:23
JACK SEN
Earl Grey?
Yeah- I’ll have a sip or two, I’m sure.
34:27
ARAN TORI
Where were
we?
34:30
JACK SEN
Um, the
problems we faced, maybe? Well, ...
34:35
ARAN TORI
Wait for
that.
34:36
JACK SEN
After
that...
34:39
JACK SEN
The
allegations that have been made against us have been unbelievable. I mean, I
don’t know if I want to say this on camera, but like, but, you know, false
allegations obviously, and they’ve been you know, ultimately when social
services comes out they say “oh there’s no charge to answer for” but that’s
after, you know, five phone calls, two interviews and you know, us thinking,
you know they’re gonna take the baby away because of the politics, you know.
35:01
ARAN TORI
Do you have
to move around a lot because of this?
35:04
JACK SEN
Yeah
35:04
ARAN TORI
And live a
double life?
35:07
JACK SEN
It’s made me
slightly paranoid, I guess, but I guess it’s not really paranoia when it’s
backed by the fact that there’s been threats, so.
35:15
ARAN TORI
Sure
35:16
ARAN TORI
Do you have
a bit of milk I could just put in?
35:20
JACK SEN
Um, I
probably do
35:21
VOICEOVER
It was
upsetting seeing the burden Jack had brought upon his family but he enjoyed
being seen as a prominent nationalist figure.
35:30
JACK SEN
I have been
helping recently the leading group in the Irexit movement, so, basically,
Brexit but in Ireland. Possibly creating a free speech event with them as well.
35:38
ARAN TORI
Is it
accurate to say you’re working with a number of medias that are pushing forward
the pan european movement, the pan european identity movement.
35:48
JACK SEN
Sure.
Certainly, certainly. Yeah, definitely. Three, four million people a week we’re
reaching, so it’s uh, it’s massive, you know.
35:57
JACK SEN
Okay, so, on
my tablet, this is my facebook page.
36:01
VOICEOVER
Jack boasted
about his inner workings and influence online.
36:05
JACK SEN
Sound is
breaking up a bit.
36:05
JACK SEN
talking in discussion show video viewing on his tablet
My guest is
Jack Sen, he is a former parliamentary candidate. Right now we’re going to talk
about Jewish involvement in the destruction of South Africa and White genocide.
36:14
ARAN TORI
Should we go
for a walk?
36:16
JACK SEN
We can go
for a walk, I can show you the area around here, outside, and see what its
like, nice peace, peaceful, leafy area.
36:21
JACK SEN
I bought my
car from a footballer
36:23
ARAN TORI
Oh, right.
36:24
JACK SEN
Yeah, the
black one. I bought it from a footballer.
36:28
ARAN TORI
Okay.
36:28
JACK SEN
I know him,
he sold it to me for cheap, so
36:30
ARAN TORI
Did he know
about your political views?
36:33
JACK SEN
Ehh, yes and
no, we can go here, walk up here, in the center, go on the grass.
36:40
JACK SEN
No he did
not, haha, no. He did not.
36:44
ARAN TORI
Because that
wouldn’t go down well with, um, with buying the car off him?
36:49
JACK SEN
I don’t
know, he didn’t seem to care, I don’t think he really cares, so. It’s a nice,
nice area so.
36:55
ARAN TORI
Yes, it is,
yeah.
36:58
JACK SEN
And you
wouldn’t want to see this changed, and that’s what I’m worried about, I mean at
the end of the day. I mean, my mother’s side of the family is from this area
for as many generations as I can remember, before that from Ireland, actually,
erm, but I mean, my fear is that immigration would just destroy this place.
37:19
ARAN TORI
Do you think
Trump has allowed for people like you to be more freely expressive?
37:22
JACK SEN
I would say
he has given us a voice. I think people like me who weren’t vocal feel like
they can be vocal more because Trump is honest. He’s expressed what ninety
percent of the population thinks. That we don’t want people coming from
shitholes. Why do we want people, look, when they come here, they don’t...
37:36
ARAN TORI
I think, I
think Americans actually, a lot of Americans would be offended by you saying
that ninety percent of them would think that.
37:44
JACK SEN
Well, I, no,
maybe I’m not say Americans but I’d say probably Westerners in general.
37:48
VOICEOVER
Back home, I
learned Jack’s sister had opposing views.
37:52
JACK SEN
Liberals
typically travel to wonderful Western European nations, and my sister for
example, she is a left-wing liberal California person but she travels, when she
goes on holiday, Ireland, Italy, France and she goes to castles and museums and
she revels in the art and the culture but yet when I say to her, “why do you
want to see all the immigrants coming in and changing everything, that the
culture you love, the languages you love, were created by these people why do
you want to see them replaced?” She has no answer for that.
38:19
ARAN TORI
I think
preserving the culture is different to preserving the people
38:22
JACK SEN
Do you think
that a black majority will preserve a, the Italian culture? If the black-
38:28
ARAN TORI
Of course,
absolutely
38:29
ARAN TORI
Didn’t
Barack Obama preserve the American culture?
38:32
JACK SEN
Absolutely
not. Barack Obama was a disaster for the United States. I think Trump opened
the door for all of us, really. It’s wonderful, you know, Donald Trump will go
down in history for me as a, probably the most important historical figure in
the twenty first century. Because of him, people like me feel as if we have a
chance too. I don’t think Trump is racist in any way, shape, or form. Zero. I
think he’s a civic nationalist. He’s America first. I don’t think he’s racist,
and it’s not racism to say “Haiti’s a shithole”. Haiti is a shithole. It’s not
racism to say it’s a shithole. And if all the countries that happen to be
shitholes happen to be black then perhaps the black people who live in those
countries should be asking themselves some questions, why are we living in
shitholes. But Haiti is a shithole. I don’t know if you can use that language.
39:13
ARAN TORI
It is a bit
insensitive, though, saying that, isn’t it?
39:15
JACK SEN
No, it’s
true.
39:17
THE NEW YORK TIMES Film
(CNN) Archive film
So let’s be
clear. A white honky from Norway can come here, but a black dude from Haiti
can’t? What does that tell you in an America that one, that in one generation
called you a nigger?
39:17
“The New York Times” text appears
over archive footage
39:30
THE NEW YORK TIMES Film
(FOX News) Archive film
I know him
well and I like him and admire him but this is a new low. The, the language,
the racial implications are reprehensible and he deserves the criticism he’s
going to get.
Donald Trump News VIDEO -
14
39:40
VOICEOVER
Jack drew
strength from President Trump’s words, and he wasn’t the only one. In a video
message to Donald Trump, Anne Marie Waters said her political party is inspired
by Trump’s conviction to fearlessly defend his country.
39:58
VOICEOVER
I drove back
South to Essex to see Anne Marie at her home, hoping to see a different side to
her than the provocative one I had seen so far. I wanted to press her on the
consequences her message had on her supporters.
40:24
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Oh I know, I
know. Who are all these people? Who are all these people, sweetie?
40:29
ARAN TORI
[laughing]
She’s not comfortable with our..
40:31
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Oh, she’s
not
40:32
ARAN TORI
With seeing
us here.
40:34
ARAN TORI
Can you
guarantee that what goes on in your social media doesn’t affect others or
influence others to carry out violent crime and extremism?
40:42
ANNE MARIE WATERS
How can I
guarantee that? I’m not responsible for what other people do. What always amazes
me about this is that apparently people like me are responsible for right wing-
whatever- whatever it is, ah, but the Quran is not responsible for Jihadis who
tell us they’re following the Quran.
40:58
ARAN TORI
What you’re
presenting is very selective.
41:01
ANNE MARIE WATERS
No, I’m
telling...
41:02
ARAN TORI
And it’s
targeted at Islam
41:03
ANNE MARIE WATERS
No, no, no,
no, no, like what? I tell the truth about what Islam teaches. It’s like, for
example, FGM. Everyone insists across the board that FGM has nothing to do with
Islam, I’m saying that is absolutely not true, just because not all Muslims do
it doesn’t mean it has nothing to do with Islam.
41:20
ARAN TORI
It’s my
understand that something like female genital mutilation is a cultural issue.
41:25
ANNE MARIE WATERS
I’ve just
explained...
41:26
ARAN TORI
That it
comes from West Africa
41:28
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Well,
Indonesia is not in West Africa...
41:31
ARAN TORI
But
Christians in West Africa also do it.
41:33
ANNE MARIE WATERS
It is
growing, I am fully aware that there are a tiny number of Christians who do it.
41:38
ARAN TORI
It’s my
understanding it’s not written anywhere in the Quran.
42:40
ANNE MARIE WATERS
It’s
promoted by Muslim clerics as a Muslim obligation. Take it up with them if
that’s not true. Why is it our job? Why does all this migration have to come
here in the first place?
41:51
ARAN TORI
Don’t you
see that as being a little bit dangerous because you’re presenting this
connection of mass immigration and muslims as being a, basically damaging our
society.
42:02
ANNE MARIE WATERS
They are
damaging our society. The cultural practices they are bringing is damaging our
society.
42:11
ANNE MARIE WATERS
What’s up
sweetie? She’s so bewildered. No idea what’s going on, do you sweetheart? It’s
okay. It’s okay.
42:23
ARAN TORI
She’s like
“oh when are these people gonna go so I can just be in my comfort zone again?”
and just do what I want.
42:30
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Treat?
42:34
ARAN TORI
About the
case of Darren Osborne, driving down a number of Muslims outside a mosque and
Thomas Mare killing a British MP…
42:42
ANNE MARIE WATERS
They’re both
murderers and should serve whole life terms.
42:45
ARAN TORI
Would you
classify them as extremists?
42:48
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Of course.
42:48
ARAN TORI
As far right
extremists?
42:49
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Well I don’t
know, I don’t know them, I don’t know who they are. All I know is what I read
in the mainstream media, which is usually lies.
42:56
ARAN TORI
Would you
agree that Tommy Robinson influenced his motivations?
43:04
ANNE MARIE WATERS
I, it’s
absolutely astonishing to me. Tommy Robinson did not, unless Tommy Robinson
knocked on his door and sat him down and said “listen, you need to go out and
do this”, all Tommy Robinson is doing is speaking.
43:20
ARAN TORI
For an
immigrant to come to Britain, what British values would you like to see them
uphold?
43:26
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Well they’re
going to have to accept that your going to be offended, if we offend your
religion, we have every right, we have a history of satirising, mocking, and we will do so. We
will continue to do so.
43:38
ARAN TORI
The
greatness of a country is how they treat their minorities.
43:42
ANNE MARIE WATERS
How is, what
are you suggesting? That we all shut up in case a minority is offended? Get the
message. It doesn’t matter if people are offended.
43:51
ARAN TORI
But what I’m
saying is, is not to cause hatred and, and be overly offensive is what I’m
saying.
43:59
ANNE MARIE WATERS
It doesn’t
get through, does it? If you don’t like it, don’t live here.
44:02
VOICEOVER
Before
leaving, we took the dogs for a walk. Anne Marie’s firm conviction made it
difficult to build a rapport and her incessant beliefs raised questions I
wanted to put to her about the British government.
44:13
ARAN TORI
What if I
throw the ball, are they not likely to catch it?
44:15
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Oh, probably
not.
44:15
ARAN TORI
No? I’ll
give it a, I’ll give it a go. Oh, yes.
44:21
ANNE MARIE WATERS
There you
go.
44:22
ARAN TORI
Yeah, she’s
getting involved now.
44:27
ARAN TORI
Do you think
the government is listening in on what you say? and erm observing you?
44:33
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Oh, I don’t
know, I don’t know, I don’t know how much. You know, some people think that
we’re being watched all the time, and other people think that there’s nothing
happening, and I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. Erm, I
certainly wouldn’t like to think I’m being watched, I don’t think.
44:49
ARAN TORI
Do you think
they consider you as a threat?
44:52
ANNE MARIE WATERS
Ah, probably
not yet. I mean, they probably do in in the way that, you know, in the kind of
stuff you talk about, storing up this and that. But as a political threat, no,
but they will one day.
45:03
VOICEOVER
I was close
to the end of my time with the Far Right and I had no luck in talking to one if
it’s most prominent figures, Tommy Robinson but I managed to secure a meeting
with one of his relatives. Tommy meanwhile, took to the headlines, prosecuted
for contempt of court for a second time.
Tommy Robinson PIC - 15 (Make picture grey)
(Extreme close up, slow
zoom out with text reducing in size)
45:20
“Tommy Robinson”Archive
Image
“Tommy Robinson to be tried for
contempt of court at Old Bailey - Guardian” and “EDL
founder Tommy Robinson is no martyr but a racist thug who got what he deserves
- Daily Mail” text appears over Tommy Robinson image
45:21
VOICEOVER
His
supporters didn’t see it this way and called him a martyr of free speech.
45:32
VOICEOVER
I was in
Tommy’s home town of Luton to meet his uncle Darren Carroll
45:41
ARAN TORI
Let’s go,
I’ll follow you.
45:42
DARREN CARROLL
Yeah,
alright, sweet. Well, if we got the umbrellas, and you don’t mind, this’ll be
quicker, but it’ll be a bit wetter.
45:46
ARAN TORI
Yeah, okay.
I can see the resemblance with Tommy robinson.
45:51
DARREN CARROLL
Oh, okay.
I’ve got nephews that people think I’m the brother of.
45:56
ARAN TORI
I was
reading about you, uh, towards the end of being in the EDL, and you yourself
were a founder with Tommy Robinson. You told Tommy that its not the right way
to go - ah, it’s not the right path to go down. Um, so you kind of warned him
as well before you left.
46:17
DARREN CARROLL
I don’t talk
about family or individuals I mean I, I don’t think it’d put me in a good light
if I stood here and, and said anything about, detrimental about family.
46:27
ARAN TORI
I just
wanted to understand your feelings, just on this aspect of, is it something you
are upset about? That Tommy Robinson is continuing down this route?
46:37
DARREN CARROLL
I’ve had too
much negativity in me life to, to, um, even really, uh, I’m just not going back
there. You know, I’m starting dialogue with other communities and I’m just
trying to, you know, be here and do something positive here today with you
guys, you know, that’s what I do so, any, any individuals can just speak for
themselves.
46:57
VOICEOVER
Once a close
relationship, leading the EDL together, it was apparent relations were now
strained between Darren and his nephew. Darren suggested we head up to Luton’s
centre, an area often portrayed in the media as hostile because of past
sectarian tensions.
47:16
ARAN TORI
So this is
quite a diverse multicultural area in Luton.
47:20
DARREN CARROLL
Yeah. All
sorts of Muslim lads and that. They just are, yeah, you know, mainly, um,
Muslim area. It’s becoming more diverse behind the streets, basically, um, than
what you see now, I guess. Um, you got like Russian shops, Polish shops, um, we
had two or three years of a lot of demonstrations in Luton, you know, from all,
all parts of the political spectrum, um, it’s all, for me I think it’s turned a
corner now from all that. Um, members of the community have got to know each
other a lot better. If we walk up here.
48:07
DARREN CARROLL
My dad come
over in about 1960 with me mum. First generation immigrants like that, if you
like, you know, West Indian, Asian, Irish, they all just got on because they
had, they had a common goal of just wanting to get, to, to build their life,
you know?
48:27
VOICEOVER
Darren’s
embrace of diversity was met with death threats and a violent attack from a neo
Nazi that caused a blood clot which led to a stroke. It didn’t discourage his
mindset and determination to help others in his new found activism.
48:41
DARREN CARROLL
I got a
campaign called house the people because houses at crisis point in Luton.
48:48
ARAN TORI
What role
did you play in this?
48:49
DARREN CARROLL
Um, I was,
basically, um, me and my brother in-law we were, like, directing the whole thing.
We basically just went out in the community and we campaigned for our housing
project, which took twelve months and it was very difficult, but eventually we
did win. It took a year and we won, we actually got the housing on it. And, um,
at that point, there you see it. People have actually got homes.
49:20
ARAN TORI
Looks like
quite a big accomplishment, it’s quite, it’s quite massive.
49:25
DARREN CARROLL
Yeah, it’s
nice. But the thing is, once you get involved in something like that, people in
the campaign and people they start ringing you and your phone’s ringing all the
time and even if you just think “ugh I’ve had enough, I wanna give up, the
council’s defeated us”, um, you can’t, because all of a sudden people have
expectations of you.
49:46
VOICEOVER
Darren
invited me to his home where I learned how is life took a turn.
49:52
DARREN CARROLL
Let me
introduce you to Peter. This is Peter.
49:54
PETER ADAMS
Good to meet
you.
49:55
ARAN TORI
Nice to meet
you, I’m Aran.
49:55
DARREN CARROLL
Known Peter
a few years now, this is Aran.
49:58
ARAN TORI
How did you
two meet?
49:01
DARREN CARROLL
We met at a,
uh, at a meeting, a council meeting, didn’t we?
50:05
PETER ADAMS
Yeah,
community meeting, before an EDL demo.
50:09
ARAN TORI
This was at
the time when you were still in the EDL?
50:11
DARREN CARROLL
Um, what
year was that? Was that...
50:13
PETER ADAMS
That meeting
was just, it was early January, just before the early twenty eleventy demo.
50:19
DARREN CARROLL
Just before
the twenty eleven demo.
50:20
PETER ADAMS
So the big
London Luton demo.
50:22
PETER ADAMS
We met in a
meeting and I stood up and challenged Stephen Lennon, Tommy over what,
something and Darren was, I think, just down the road from me and he was a sort
of semi-friendly presence. I’m not quite sure what it was and then we met on
the street in the house the people demo, didn’t we?
50:40
ARAN TORI
At that time
you had opposing views, totally, right?
50:46
PETER ADAMS
You were,
you had already left strongly by then, hadn’t you?
50:48
DARREN CARROLL
Yeah, I had
already left but I wasn’t outspoken because when I left, I stayed silent
because I didn’t want to make life hard for anybody else that I’d have known in
the EDL, you know, anybody that I’d thought highly of at the time, so, um, so I
stayed silent for two or three years, so that’s two- two thirteen I’d just
started um, meeting with you and having some chats about the local domestic
issues.
51:10
PETER ADAMS
Yeah, yeah
51:11
DARREN CARROLL
I think we
had conversed online. I was probably a little hard on you at times online, if
I’m honest. I probably gave him a bit too.
51:19
ARAN TORI
How?
51:19
DARREN CARROLL
Um, because
I felt like, you haven’t walked in my footsteps.
51:23
PETER ADAMS
You know I
think Darren’s journey from being someone who was intimately involved with the
whole movement to, to actually standing against it was, was one I respected,
and to actually journey along together, and I’ve learned as much from you as
you’ve learnt from me.
51:36
ARAN TORI
What was it
that made you approach each other?
51:39
PETER ADAMS
Well it was
actually, I think, because of the house the people movement particularly, I
wanted to hear those issues rather than just say the EDL are bad…you know,
‘smash the fash’ sort of attitude. I
want to say “Okay, what is it that is motivating these guys to speak out, and
is it just about extremism or is it about other lots of other things as well?”
52:06
ARAN TORI
Yes.
52:06
PETER ADAMS
And actually
with Darren it was very much about those other things. He was concerned about
extremism, but actually he was increasingly concerned about extremism on the
side from which he’d come as well, weren’t you?
52:16
DARREN CARROLL
Yeah, yeah
as well, because I could see the future I could see where and how it was going
to end up.
52:30
PETER ADAMS
If something
happens locally we do something practical, so like when Britain First were
here, on one occasion, they did a march in Bury Park with their crosses. Just,
angry, confronted a young Muslim woman...very abusive. The next day we as
church leaders were over in Bury park with flowers, with a message, this
doesn’t represent us...and that was powerful. Acts of kindness stimulate acts
of kindness.
52:57
ARAN TORI
Yes
52:57
PETER ADAMS
And that’s
how we grow as community.
52:58
DARREN CARROLL
And you’ve
got to have that, you’ve got to have that person or group there to reach out to
though.
53:03
PETER ADAMS
That’s what
we want the story of this town to be.
53:06
ARAN TORI
To see that
his nephew, Tommy Robinson, has, has continued to go down this path and has a
growing, um, is a growing force in the far right...
53:18
PETER ADAMS
Yeah,
absolutely
53:20
ARAN TORI
I assume
someone like Darren who is a, a kind of a senior figure of his family and, I
assume, someone that Tommy Robinson or Steven Lennon looked up to, and um, he’s
made this change but Tommy’s gone down this ...
53:35
PETER ADAMS
It’s very
sad to see families dividing us around things like this.
53:40
DARREN CARROLL
But
dialogue’s there, it’s always on the table.
53:42
PETER ADAMS
Yeah. It’s
always on the table, there’s always room for more...
53:44
DARREN CARROLL
You know, we
can always talk, we can always change. That’s my whole, my, um, philosophy of
it, really.
53:50
ARAN TORI
Not giving
up.
53:55
ARAN TORI
Far right
supporters are are looking to Tommy to teach them about the Quran.
54:00
PETER ADAMS
Absolutely,
yes.
54:01
ARAN TORI
Through
social media.
54:02
PETER ADAMS
Yeah, yeah
yeah yeah. I mean, people’s views of what Islam is nowadays are really
dominated by what the Far Right have been pushing, unfortunately. He has, he
has held tight to a view: all Muslims are out to kill you, all Muslims are out
to rape your women, all Muslims are out to dominate this nation. Whereas,
actually, the reality is the Muslims are peace-loving people, they stand
alongside me and condemn exploitation in children and young women and so on,
and they say “we want to live alongside you as equal residents in this nation.”
I’m not going to allow Tommy to teach me the Quran, you know, as a Christian,
I’m not going to allow someone else to define what my faith is. I want to relate
to, I want to relate to Muslims as they relate, as they speak of themselves,
and try to understand them as they are but actually assume the best of them. My
feeling is as a human being, I get the best out of other human beings by
assuming the best of them. I could have asked the question of you guys today,
you know, you’re a film crew, I don’t know who you are, you could be here
representing the Nazi party as far as I’m concerned but actually I made a
choice, I’ve got an hour with you, you know, I’m going to assume the best of
you, I’ll talk it straight as I believe it is cause I know Darren trusts you,
he must do, he’s been around with you all day, you know, um, actually, I’m
gonna trust you. So I assume the best and actually I, I find as a human being I
get the best out of people and make the most out of relationships by assuming
the best.
55:49
PETER ADAMS
Take care
mate.
55:50
DARREN CARROLL
Take care,
Peter
55:51
ARAN TORI
It’s been a
pleasure.
55:51
PETER ADAMS
Nice to meet
you, too
55:52
VOICEMAIL
I left
Darren and Peter wondering if Tommy would ever turn to his uncle for guidance
to change his world view.
56:09
“Tommy Robinson was appointed as an
advisor to UKIP leader Gerard Batten” text appears over footage
56:17
“Jack Williams left the New British
Union stating he’s dedicated to a syndicalist revolution” text appears over footage
56:22
“He believes the NBU leader Gary
Reikhs’vision is a fantasy of dictatorship and admits the group has a Neo Nazi
membership” text
appears over footage
56:30
Credits appear
- End -